Pylons

Kippure · 09-01-2014 11:53PM

micosoft wrote: »

You would call? On what basis? It's regarded as one of the most modern and effectively managed grids in Europe. It's directly plugged into the UK grid FFS. Far more likely to be a poorly wired house then supply issue. I really do challenge you to give me a location where this is true. The gross exaggeration that goes on with some people. As someone who works frequently in Africa and even the US people in this country have no idea how reliable their power system is.

As a electrician who has just over 20 plus years working all over Ireland and Canada I am going to inform you what I have seen and worked with.

Im not going to give you any location on brown outs or micro breaks in voltage supply but as a qualified electrician I am informing you that there are areas in Ireland in which at peak demand, morning time, and evening times mainly that supply voltage cannot be maintained for that period. I have recorded voltage as little as 179 volts on a meter.

Do you know what a brown out is in electrical terms?

micosoft wrote: »

Does not happen that way and certainly never from high voltage line. Lightning is much more likely. What does happen is that if there is an earth failure in a substation you can have animals (mainly cattle) given a heart attack as it earths through the ground. This has nothing to do with overheads and can be caused by local substations. Cattle tend to have weak hearts and conduct through the front legs and out the back. Quite a frequent occurrence in badly earthed concrete floored milking parlours that are damp.

Cattle have been killed from HT lines passing through fields where cattle have been standing.

It happens at peak times when you can hear the HT lines buzzing over head.

The power jumps off the lines to ground, Causing what is Known as Step voltage. (Have talked to many a farmer about it)

Regarding Milk parlours they have a special way of been grounded, see ETCI Regs for that.

micosoft wrote: »

Which unhappily are not connected to the National Grid. Do you see the problem now? We build a massive wind farm in arklow. It's not that it's impossible - just that its much cheaper, much easier, much cheaper to maintain it, much easier to connect to the grid on land.

If Ireland is going to go down the route of renewable energy I would like to see it provided freely to the nation. I hope they can maintain it though exporting it.

I simply do not want to see pylons littering our country side.

Capt'n Midnight · 09-01-2014 11:56PM

almighty1 wrote: »

Cattle and horses wont graze under HV pylons. Huge stretches of farming lands may become useless to a farmer whose family may have owned that land for 100s of years.

[Citation Needed]

hof1982 · 10-01-2014 11:11AM

Just thought I'd share some information from a joint independent report issued by Parsons Brinckerhoff and the IET in early 2012. The report details a cost comparison of the various means of power transmission in the UK. Quoting the main findings;
"Overhead line (OHL) is the cheapest transmission technology for any
given route length or circuit capacity, with the lifetime cost estimates
varying between £2.2m and £4.2m per kilometre; however, OHL losses
are the most sensitive to circuit loading."
"Underground cable (UGC), direct buried, is the next cheapest technology
after overhead line, for any given route length or circuit capacity. It thus
also represents the least expensive underground technology, with the
lifetime cost estimates varying between £10.2m and £24.1m per
kilometre."
"For the options using a deep tunnel, the largest single cost element is
invariably the tunnel itself, with costs per kilometre ranging from £12.9m
to £23.9m per kilometre, depending upon overall tunnel length."
"The 75km high voltage direct current (HVDC) connections are estimated
to cost between £13.4m and £31.8m per km, and are thus more
expensive than the equivalent overhead or direct buried transmission
options. However, long HVDC connections are proportionally more
efficient than short connections."

It is clear that the cost of undergrounding is prohibitive on the basis of the figures above. For anyone interested in the report here's the link;
http://www.theiet.org/factfiles/transmission-report.cfm

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2014 11:59AM

Kippure wrote: »

Im not going to give you any location on brown outs or micro breaks in voltage supply but as a qualified electrician I am informing you that there are areas in Ireland in which at peak demand, morning time, and evening times mainly that supply voltage cannot be maintained for that period. I have recorded voltage as little as 179 volts on a meter.

So you're saying we need to upgrade the network ?

Or spend large sums of money on boost electronics ?

Cattle have been killed from HT lines passing through fields where cattle have been standing.

It happens at peak times when you can hear the HT lines buzzing over head.

the buzzing is related to the moisture in the air, not the current carried.

The power jumps off the lines to ground, Causing what is Known as Step voltage. (Have talked to many a farmer about it)

I'm biting my tongue it just wants to say "ball lightening"
Am confused by this, the grid is monitored for leakage

Regarding Milk parlours they have a special way of been grounded, see ETCI Regs for that.

a building that gets regularly hosed down, of course there are stricter regs

If Ireland is going to go down the route of renewable energy I would like to see it provided freely to the nation. I hope they can maintain it though exporting it.

yeah, hows that going to work ?
solar and wind and hydro tap into free energy, but there are capital costs and O&M costs and distribution costs and wages. And you can only sell it abroad at market rate, and that means you are up against Scottish power and French power and Norwegian power (via Holland for now but probably direct later)

I simply do not want to see pylons littering our country side.

The best way of doing that is put forward reasonable arguments that don't comprise of FUD

Kippure · 10-01-2014 12:28PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So you're saying we need to upgrade the network ?

I said at peak times Demand there is A voltage supply problem in parts of Ireland. From experience.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Or spend large sums of money on boost electronics ?

Ill let the power companies decide that. Its called power electronics.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

the buzzing is related to the moisture in the air, not the current carried.

Its a corona discharge brought on by the ionization of a fluid surrounding a conductor that is electrically energized. The discharge will occur when the strength (potential gradient) of the electric field around the conductor is high enough to form a conductive region, but not high enough to cause electrical breakdown or arcing to nearby objects. But is does happen It is often seen as a bluish (or other color) glow in the air adjacent to pointed metal conductors carrying high voltages. Spontaneous corona discharges are undesirable where they waste power in high-voltage systems or where the high chemical activity in a corona discharge creates objectionable or hazardous compounds, such as ozone.

OR

Tracking is partial voltage trying to escape to earth, and it's this noise that you hear happening at however many hertz your local area uses.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Am confused by this, the grid is monitored for leakage

I know.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

yeah, hows that going to work ?
solar and wind and hydro tap into free energy, but there are capital costs and O&M costs and distribution costs and wages. And you can only sell it abroad at market rate, and that means you are up against Scottish power and French power and Norwegian power (via Holland for now but probably direct later)

The best way of doing that is put forward reasonable arguments that don't comprise of FUD

Explain FUD

This is the one I wanted to show you. This is how it happens. I had one good video showing A real arc to earth. Ill dig it up

Billy86 · 10-01-2014 08:38PM

By the way, if some people are so against pylons because of their "dangers" as they haven't been officially disproven despite constant testing showing no real signs of worry... then what is the alternative? It certainly isn't undergrounding anyway, as the dangers have not been disproven there either. So what is it?

micosoft · 11-01-2014 12:07AM

Kippure wrote: »

I said at peak times Demand there is A voltage supply problem in parts of Ireland. From experience.

But you won't name the parts? I really don't buy this. I'm sure there are very localised problems in some very rural parts but nothing that does not happen in any other well maintained grid. You were the one that claimed we have an old fashioned grid and you've not substantiated it.

Kippure wrote: »

Ill let the power companies decide that. Its called power electronics.

So no real view then.

Kippure wrote: »

Its a corona discharge brought on by the ionization of a fluid surrounding a conductor that is electrically energized. The discharge will occur when the strength (potential gradient) of the electric field around the conductor is high enough to form a conductive region, but not high enough to cause electrical breakdown or arcing to nearby objects. But is does happen It is often seen as a bluish (or other color) glow in the air adjacent to pointed metal conductors carrying high voltages. Spontaneous corona discharges are undesirable where they waste power in high-voltage systems or where the high chemical activity in a corona discharge creates objectionable or hazardous compounds, such as ozone.

OR

Tracking is partial voltage trying to escape to earth, and it's this noise that you hear happening at however many hertz your local area uses.

Your point?

Kippure wrote: »

Explain FUD

This is the one I wanted to show you. This is how it happens. I had one good video showing A real arc to earth. Ill dig it up

I'll give it a go. Creating Fear Uncertainty and Doubt by Posting scary videos of powerlines shorting but not mentioning its an idiot clearly throwing a nylon fishing line over the lines.

You are really adding nothing to this discussion despite knowing a little about electricity.

micosoft · 11-01-2014 12:10AM

Kippure wrote: »

As a electrician who has just over 20 plus years working all over Ireland and Canada I am going to inform you what I have seen and worked with.

Im not going to give you any location on brown outs or micro breaks in voltage supply but as a qualified electrician I am informing you that there are areas in Ireland in which at peak demand, morning time, and evening times mainly that supply voltage cannot be maintained for that period. I have recorded voltage as little as 179 volts on a meter.

Do you know what a brown out is in electrical terms?

Cattle have been killed from HT lines passing through fields where cattle have been standing.

It happens at peak times when you can hear the HT lines buzzing over head.

The power jumps off the lines to ground, Causing what is Known as Step voltage. (Have talked to many a farmer about it)

Regarding Milk parlours they have a special way of been grounded, see ETCI Regs for that.

If Ireland is going to go down the route of renewable energy I would like to see it provided freely to the nation. I hope they can maintain it though exporting it.

I simply do not want to see pylons littering our country side.

Why? Are these locations a state secret? Will the enemy discover our weak grid and take advantage? Give me a town/townland at least....

This is mostly nonsense. Step Voltage is not what you are talking about - at least have the decency to read the wikipedia entry.

But, since you are offering, if you think the electricity should be given freely to the nation I presume you are offering your services for free too! Why should you charge for your services if the power generators can't?

pljudge321 · 11-01-2014 12:58AM

Kippure wrote: »

Cattle have been killed from HT lines passing through fields where cattle have been standing.

It happens at peak times when you can hear the HT lines buzzing over head.

The power jumps off the lines to ground, Causing what is Known as Step voltage. (Have talked to many a farmer about it)

Whats so special about peak load, apart from conductor sag reducing the distance from the conductor to earth. But seeing how air has a dielectric breakdown voltage of about 30kV/cm this is BS anyway.

I suspect the cow story is from a lightning strike.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 03:50PM

micosoft wrote: »

But you won't name the parts? I really don't buy this. I'm sure there are very localised problems in some very rural parts but nothing that does not happen in any other well maintained grid. You were the one that claimed we have an old fashioned grid and you've not substantiated it.

So no real view then.

Your point?

I'll give it a go. Creating Fear Uncertainty and Doubt by Posting scary videos of powerlines shorting but not mentioning its an idiot clearly throwing a nylon fishing line over the lines.

You are really adding nothing to this discussion despite knowing a little about electricity.

Your just arguing for the sake of it.
From the replies you have given above your the one who hasn't a clue about electricity.

Ill let you have the last say.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 03:55PM

micosoft wrote: »

Why? Are these locations a state secret? Will the enemy discover our weak grid and take advantage? Give me a town/townland at least....

This is mostly nonsense. Step Voltage is not what you are talking about - at least have the decency to read the wikipedia entry.

But, since you are offering, if you think the electricity should be given freely to the nation I presume you are offering your services for free too! Why should you charge for your services if the power generators can't?

LOL Then enemy will discover them..............

And your understanding of electricity is .....
Step voltage is when electricity leaks to earth and spreads out across the ground. The closer to the fault the stronger the leak, the further away the weaker the leak. That's it in Laymans terms.

I said I would like to see electricity from renewable power provided free to the people of Ireland. Wouldn't that be a great.:)

Kippure · 11-01-2014 03:59PM

pljudge321 wrote: »

Whats so special about peak load, apart from conductor sag reducing the distance from the conductor to earth. But seeing how air has a dielectric breakdown voltage of about 30kV/cm this is BS anyway.

I suspect the cow story is from a lightning strike.

Im not arguing the point, and you made a valid point, but im informing you from what I have been told by farmers, simple as.

If you don't like it, not my problem. What ever you think is BS that's your view.

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 04:47PM

Kippure wrote: »

Im not arguing the point, and you made a valid point, but im informing you from what I have been told by farmers, simple as.

If you don't like it, not my problem. What ever you think is BS that's your view.

Ah yes a group that would have no vested interest in making unsupported accusations about pylons being towers of death. As has been said I’m sure it was a lightning strike. And would this be the same group of people that constantly scream poverty ?

Kippure · 11-01-2014 05:00PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ah yes a group that would have no vested interest in making unsupported accusations about pylons being towers of death. As has been said I’m sure it was a lightning strike. And would this be the same group of people that constantly scream poverty ?

Whats your favourite type of pylon?

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 05:07PM

Kippure wrote: »

Whats your favourite type of pylon?

One that supply's my family and elderly relatives electricity so we can keep warm in winter also light our house in the dark. One that supply's all the convenience of modern living to our nation.

mickydoomsux · 11-01-2014 05:08PM

When one of your arguments against pylons is basically the "Heavy Electricity" bit from Brass Eye then i think you may already have lost the debate.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 05:09PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

One that supply's my family and elderly relative electricity so we can keep warm in winter also light our house in the dark. One that supply's all the convenience of modern living to our nation.

Do you like Tubular or round steel, lattice, wood or concrete Pylons?

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 05:10PM

Kippure wrote: »

Do you like Tubular or round steel, lattice, wood or concrete Pylons?

I would go with the most cost effective option for the rout I was using.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 05:16PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I would go with the most cost effective option for the rout I was using.

The type of Pylon is very important, some people only know about lattice as they look like big robots standing across our country side. Visual they look ****.

So cost isn't just one factor to consider.

How many Mobile phone masts are in your area?

How many are disguised as tall conifer Trees?

Do you know?

If pylons were out sight out mind like Mobile phone masts would that please the mass,s?

Is the shape of a pylon important to you?

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 05:27PM

Kippure wrote: »

The type of Pylon is very important, some people only know about lattice as they look like big robots standing across our country side. Visual they look ****.

So cost isn't just one factor to consider.

How many Mobile phone masts are in your area?

How many are disguised as tall conifer Trees?

Do you know?

If pylons were out sight out mind like Mobile phone masts would that please the mass,s?

Is the shape of a pylon important to you?

We are told we only have one option by the anti side underground.... So what is the point in discussing the myriad other options ? I see plenty mobile phone masts around here and even some of the really large ones. Only thing I have seen disguised as a tree is one of them private wind turbines a large one too. Painted green on some farmers land hope the irony is not lost.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 05:44PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

We are told we only have one option by the anti side underground.... So what is the point in discussing the myriad other options ? I see plenty mobile phone masts around here and even some of the really large ones. Only thing I have seen disguised as a tree is one of them private wind turbines a large one too. Painted green on some farmers land hope the irony is not lost.

Well they should also decide what is pleasing to the eye. The main argument seems to be around one type of pylon. Lattice, its the most common.

Maybe they should point out there are many types and shapes of pylon.

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 06:34PM

Kippure wrote: »

Well they should also decide what is pleasing to the eye. The main argument seems to be around one type of pylon. Lattice, its the most common.

Maybe they should point out there are many types and shapes of pylon.

Nah they would rather point out the fact that their Giant towers of death. As you cant prove their safe. I cant prove living in the country is safe either. Actually you cant prove anything is 100% safe.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 06:40PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nah they would rather point out the fact that their Giant towers of death. As you cant prove their safe. I cant prove living in the country is safe either. Actually you cant prove anything is 100% safe.

Good god man, I,ve pointed out what can go wrong with HT Lines. And yes they are dangerous.

I cant prove there safe Correct. One of many Discussions.

Also when you have current passing through lines it creates magnetic fields.

That's another discussion on the effects electromagnetic fields have on the environment.

So there are many things to discuss.

Blahblah2012 · 11-01-2014 07:02PM

Kippure wrote: »

Good god man, I,ve pointed out what can go wrong with HT Lines. And yes they are dangerous.

I cant prove there safe Correct. One of many Discussions.

Also when you have current passing through lines it creates magnetic fields.

That's another discussion on the effects electromagnetic fields have on the environment.

So there are many things to discuss.

The thing they can't accept is that the bulk of the people who will be affected directly by these pylons DON'T WANT THEM OR THE MONEY.

These people are the usual FG/FF/LB ram it down people's throat brigade commonly seen on boards.ie.

micosoft · 11-01-2014 07:34PM

Kippure wrote: »

Your just arguing for the sake of it.
From the replies you have given above your the one who hasn't a clue about electricity.

Ill let you have the last say.

Thanks! I will. This is a debating board. So let's summarise your contribution:

- You set out that you are very knowledgeable on the topic.
- You make a dubious, unsubstantiated allegation that we have an old power grid when the evidence is the opposite. You decline even to name a town where there are "old grid" power issues.
- You make up stuff about HV lines being dangerous and killing cattle (despite me helping out and describing how cattle actually are killed by earthing faults).
- You post videos purporting to be evidence of same when it's clear that it's some idiot casting a nylon fishing line over HV lines (was this you?)
- When challenged on this nonsense you throw your toys out of the pram.

Frankly I doubt you are even a sparks at this point.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 07:40PM

micosoft wrote: »

Thanks! I will. This is a debating board. So let's summarise your contribution:

- You set out that you are very knowledgeable on the topic.
- You make a dubious, unsubstantiated allegation that we have an old power grid when the evidence is the opposite. You decline even to name a town where there are "old grid" power issues.
- You make up stuff about HV lines being dangerous and killing cattle (despite me helping out and describing how cattle actually are killed by earthing faults).
- You post videos purporting to be evidence of same when it's clear that it's some idiot casting a nylon fishing line over HV lines (was this you?)
- When challenged on this nonsense you throw your toys out of the pram.

Frankly I doubt you are even a sparks at this point.

Start at the beginning and read our discussion.

I done with you. Have a nice day.:)

darkpagandeath · 11-01-2014 07:43PM

Kippure wrote: »

Good god man, I,ve pointed out what can go wrong with HT Lines. And yes they are dangerous.

I cant prove there safe Correct. One of many Discussions.

Also when you have current passing through lines it creates magnetic fields.

That's another discussion on the effects electromagnetic fields have on the environment.

So there are many things to discuss.

None... We have EMF regulations so devices don't effect other devices nothing to do with being harmful to people. If EMF was dangerous to life I'm guessing there would not be any on Planet earth.

Kippure · 11-01-2014 07:48PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

None... We have EMF regulations so devices don't effect other devices nothing to do with being harmful to people. If EMF was dangerous to life I'm guessing there would not be any on Planet earth.

You don't guess when it comes to electricity period and its effects.

http://www.safespaceprotection.com/harmful-effects-electromagnetic-fields.aspx

micosoft · 11-01-2014 07:53PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

The thing they can't accept is that the bulk of the people who will be affected directly by these pylons DON'T WANT THEM OR THE MONEY.

These people are the usual FG/FF/LB ram it down people's throat brigade commonly seen on boards.ie.

Blah blah blah. Not everything in this life is down to what somebody "wants". As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, there are lots of things, Roads, Sewerage plants, dumps, Prisons, factories, pig farms that people don't like being beside them. But being adults they have to accept that they need to be placed somewhere.

To be frank you use all of these services and are happy enough that somebody else has to put up with it, just not you. You don't represent these people, or in fact, the vast bulk of people in the countryside or in the country. Accusing people of being shills or some other agenda is all a reflection on a certain entitlement mentality and an extraordinary level of hypocrisy on your behalf.

micosoft · 11-01-2014 08:01PM

Kippure wrote: »

Do you like Tubular or round steel, lattice, wood or concrete Pylons?

There was a great design competition recently with ESB being one of the applicants. Some look great. I'd have no problem with paying a reasonable uplife (1.2 times the cost) to have more attractive network.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-09/15/pylons

Pylons

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