Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Dun Laoghaire Traffic & Commuting Chat
Comments
-
I was thinking along these lines when there was a poster above complaining that the new library was a waste because soon nobody will use books anymore. Libraries are not just for getting books from, they often have great community events on too regularly - mother and baby groups and senior citizen meeting and things like that. I don't think the Council should only have to put in places that are business oriented and make money. Dun Laoghaire needs a bit of soul and community focus.0
-
Would be interested to see the likes of Hard Rock Cafe come to DL....
or something different like a Jazz or piano bar...0 -
WoollyRedHat wrote: »Would be interested to see the likes of Hard Rock Cafe come to DL....
or something different like a Jazz or piano bar...
Dún Laoghaire would probably require so form of night life in order for them to succeed though.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14646
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has placed the latest plans for the redevelopment of the Dún Laoghaire Baths site on public display. (kind of)
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,9892,en.html0 -
more money being thrown at the seafront, while the main street dies a slow painful death.0
-
Join Date:Posts: 14646
Nice to see they will open up the seafront a bit more. The poor drunks were starting to get a bit corralled down in their corner. It will hopefully also give the local graffiti artists a whole new canvas to express themselves on. I'm sure the Arts Council give grants for their work too?0 -
Typical Dun Laoghaire style comment there.
My office is on the street above the baths site, I get a refresh of eyesore every day. Various options have been proposed for it over the years, some OTT with commercial and residential, some just prohibitively expensive. The people of the area have made clear they will not wear a commercialisation or privatisation of the site and thats fair enough but without commercial money you wont get a big shiny pool complex. This scheme may well be shot down again, but the old adage is coming to the fore that 'people dont know what they want, but what they do know is its never what you're offering them!'
What would you rather see, the dereliction remain exactly as is or a simple scheme that opens up the site and makes it accessible while improving the visual and continuing the busy route from Sandycove to the Pier? The thing is being built in such a way that it doesnt obstruct a future building of sea-baths if money becomes available.
I also dont get this argument of seafront v main street. The new public space developments on the seafront drew massive crowds in the summer, it was a great buzz walking back to the train every day. But the point is it is public space that public money could be spent to improve, what do you spend on the Georges Street when youre dealing with private buildings? The street scape itself has had more money than sense thrown at it over the last ten years to no real advantage.....0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14646
What would you rather see, the dereliction remain exactly as is or a simple scheme that opens up the site and makes it accessible while improving the visual and continuing the busy route from Sandycove to the Pier? The thing is being built in such a way that it doesnt obstruct a future building of sea-baths if money becomes available.
The site will still be derelict. They've conveniently left the building and the surrounding area blanked out. All they are doing is putting a path through the site by the looks of it. The building and all the land to the east of it will remain derelict. Is that an agreeable solution?
Have you seen the recent graffiti on the wall beside the bandstand? It just makes the entire place look scummy.
And this site will never have a baths located there again. That's now happening in the harbour, the CoCo have sunk a six figure sum into the project. DL baths is no more.0 -
The site will still be derelict. They've conveniently left the building and the surrounding area blanked out. All they are doing is putting a path through the site by the looks of it. The building and all the land to the east of it will remain derelict. Is that an agreeable solution?
Have you seen the recent graffiti on the wall beside the bandstand? It just makes the entire place look scummy.
And this site will never have a baths located there again. That's now happening in the harbour, the CoCo have sunk a six figure sum into the project. DL baths is no more.
As I heard it, the old baths structures and defunct walls are being demolished, the level of the old large pool will be the pathway through the site, the reception building is being re-furb'd and let as an artist studio, its original 2 storey profile will be restored and made visible. Also the rest of the site wont be derelict, there is an extended jetty being installed to allow for sea swimming beyond the tide line, and as a dock for sea kayaks and to prevent coastal erosion. Id hope graffiti will be dealt with when its opened up in the same way its dealt with in other public amenities.
That badeschiff proposal for the harbour is ridiculously expensive for punters, I think its a pity if theres never a public sea bath in the bay again.0 -
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 14646
I sincerely hope you're right about the development and the NIMBYism from Ciaran Cuffe and the other "locals" gets a dose of realism.0 -
The mainstreet died because people don't want to shop with the number of junkies and other undesirables who frequent DL. The last time I was there I saw a huge shouting match between a couple of groups at the the little space for the Church beside the main street. Now I haven't bothered to go to there again in the past couple of years so don't know if its changed in that regard but I know it put me and many others off the place.
Capital and planning went into the seafront for years and years. I remember as a kid that it was the seafront which was the "dodgy" and run down part of DL. The piers were a state, the Pavillion was unoccupied and there was no HSS port. The whole seafront has been transformed for the better.
In the past 15 years all the mainstreet saw was a new cinema (which was a big positive mind) and Bloomfields (nice but too small for the modern needs). Then there was the fiasco about the paving of the mainstreet. I think Bloomfields was one development too many. The main shopping centre needs a radical overhaul but had major competition down the road. The various Pavillion developments took a lot of the cafe type developments that could have gone up there. That leaves the main street which tbh is 4th on the list of where I would want to be located in DL.
The shop sizes are too small, from the main street to the SC. The big brands need proper units. DL is antiquated.0 -
Dun Laoghaire, a tale of 2 towns. Makes sense IMO opinion to maximise what Dun Laoghaire has that most other towns don't have and that's a very impressive harbour area.
As regards the sea baths, isn't it better to go ahead and prettify the area rather than the catharsis that currently exists? Putting a path through the bath area now will make very little difference to the amount of money needed to restore the baths to their former usage.0 -
-
I was in Dun Laoghaire yesterday, first time for ages. I was there to meet my former office landlord for lunch, arrived much too early so drove around old haunts. A bigger kip than ever it was, still sliding further down the gutter. Its biggest problem is DLRCC, who appear to still have an absolute disconnect with commercial reality, not just in relation to the town itself, but also with other areas & traffic control within their jurisdiction. It is hard to know where to start......
Commercial Rates – still no relation between services provided / money paid. It’s on the DART, Several bus routes, so it is ‘desirable’ if run properly but sadly it’s not.... (I closed my office there, years ago, saw no point in paying almost €20k p.a. in rates for nothing. It's still unlet................)
A town of two halves – a strip mall, interrupted by the ‘Adelphi’ site - now blank offices – what were the Planners thinking? Are they even qualified?
S#ite PVC windows have been installed in many nice buildings....why has that been allowed?
Image – derelict buildings, junkies, pharmacies, €shops, charity shops everywhere.
Retail – blank vacant shopfronts, crap image, skangers allowed do what they like in doorways.
Parking – ridiculously expensive for a suburban town. My lunch host kept on looking at his watch to remind me not to get a ticket. Wardens apparently are a curse, clampers on the seafront.
Dunnes – they own the block they are on, they had/have planning, they should be forced to improve their frontage, most of the shopfronts are a disgrace and smell of pi$$.
Charity shops – does the CoCo not realise that these shops are killing real traders? Charity shop product is provided FREE, their staff are volunteers and work for FREE. How can ordinary businesses compete? Also, in general, pop-up shops do not pay VAT, here today, gone tomorrow.
New library – well it will provide shelter for the skangers, heat and warmth for them, oldies and the junkies. I’m not a fan of what is currently viewable, it destroys the symmetry of the seafront.
Roadworks – looks as if the seafront ‘park’ will be nice, but not sure there will be any retailers left to enjoy it.
I arrived via Cherrywood on M50, drove to DL via Vico Rd and Dalkey – disgraceful condition, the railings on Killiney Hill could not be seen they were so overgrown, (is there a Parks Dept. still?) a really stupid ugly concrete ‘curb/kerb’ ran along them buried under weeds and the parking area was so narrow even a small car protruded over the lines. Five hundred metres from the village there are two (yes, just 2) metered spaces on Sorrento Rd, FFS!
All that from a drive-by; imagine what it would be like if anybody took time to study it at length.
So the ladies who lunch or old fellas like me up from the country have a choice of going to Dundrum (BTs, Harvey Nichs, House of Fraser, ect, ) or Dun Laoghaire (Age Action, Vincent de Paul, Barnardos, etc.) . Errr, em, was that a question, or even a choice??0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14646
What was Cuffe saying about it?
He had a €15m alternative in mind.
http://www.ciarancuffe.ie/PR/2005/PR051010D.DunLaoghaireBaths.htm0 -
Advertisement
-
pedroeibar1 wrote: »I was in Dun Laoghaire yesterday, first time for ages. I was there to meet my former office landlord for lunch, arrived much too early so drove around old haunts. A bigger kip than ever it was, still sliding further down the gutter. Its biggest problem is DLRCC, who appear to still have an absolute disconnect with commercial reality, not just in relation to the town itself, but also with other areas & traffic control within their jurisdiction. It is hard to know where to start......
Commercial Rates – still no relation between services provided / money paid. It’s on the DART, Several bus routes, so it is ‘desirable’ if run properly but sadly it’s not.... (I closed my office there, years ago, saw no point in paying almost €20k p.a. in rates for nothing. It's still unlet................)
Agreedpedroeibar1 wrote: »A town of two halves – a strip mall, interrupted by the ‘Adelphi’ site - now blank offices – what were the Planners thinking? Are they even qualified?
That planning dates back to the 1970s/80s. The planners may be qualified but the zoning pushed through by Councillors at Development Plan time are where the problems arise, and there was none worse than 1980s planningpedroeibar1 wrote: »S#ite PVC windows have been installed in many nice buildings....why has that been allowed?
Agreed, only lip service is paid to conservation. The listing of buildings needs to be continually updated to allow for the passage of time and niche architectural styles.pedroeibar1 wrote: »Image – derelict buildings, junkies, pharmacies, €shops, charity shops everywhere.
Retail – blank vacant shopfronts, crap image, skangers allowed do what they like in doorways.
Agreed, but the planning rules are limited in what they can do to prescribe the specific retail type in a particular outlet - it would be anti-competetive. See Ann Summers v Dublin City as an example.pedroeibar1 wrote: »Parking – ridiculously expensive for a suburban town. My lunch host kept on looking at his watch to remind me not to get a ticket. Wardens apparently are a curse, clampers on the seafront.
Agreed. Has become a crisis.pedroeibar1 wrote: »Dunnes – they own the block they are on, they had/have planning, they should be forced to improve their frontage, most of the shopfronts are a disgrace and smell of pi$$.
Basic maintenance is one thing, but you cant force a private entity to invest where there is no trade. So long as they dont commence any work, any current planning permission withers after 5 years.pedroeibar1 wrote: »Charity shops – does the CoCo not realise that these shops are killing real traders? Charity shop product is provided FREE, their staff are volunteers and work for FREE. How can ordinary businesses compete? Also, in general, pop-up shops do not pay VAT, here today, gone tomorrow.
No function here for the CoCo, the shops are let by private owners, charity shops pay money to rent them, they are engaged in retail trade which is what the buildings are zoned for. The country is on its knees so charity shops are booming, thats just where we are right now. Wouldnt begrudge them any money they make for cancer, homelessness etc either.pedroeibar1 wrote: »New library – well it will provide shelter for the skangers, heat and warmth for them, oldies and the junkies. I’m not a fan of what is currently viewable, it destroys the symmetry of the seafront.
Presumably the facility will be managed better than the old park that preceded it, however the scale of it is a bit scary, turning out much more imposing than the plans suggested. Taking a wait and see on this one.pedroeibar1 wrote: »I arrived via Cherrywood on M50, drove to DL via Vico Rd and Dalkey – disgraceful condition, the railings on Killiney Hill could not be seen they were so overgrown, (is there a Parks Dept. still?) a really stupid ugly concrete ‘curb/kerb’ ran along them buried under weeds and the parking area was so narrow even a small car protruded over the lines. Five hundred metres from the village there are two (yes, just 2) metered spaces on Sorrento Rd, FFS!
All that from a drive-by; imagine what it would be like if anybody took time to study it at length.
The locals rejected a plan to make Vico one-way some years ago, now its a case of 3 into 2 doesnt go. Killiney Hill is a wild common land park, I wouldnt expect it to be manicured, but in fairness some of the parks around the area are kept beautifully. Cabinteely, Marley, Peoples Park look really well.pedroeibar1 wrote: »So the ladies who lunch or old fellas like me up from the country have a choice of going to Dundrum (BTs, Harvey Nichs, House of Fraser, ect, ) or Dun Laoghaire (Age Action, Vincent de Paul, Barnardos, etc.) . Errr, em, was that a question, or even a choice??
Agreed, hopefully the tide will turn a bit again in the future if the right decisions are made. A local group has applied to set up a Business Improvement District in DL similar to those existing in the City Centre, where they have worked well. Could be a very positive development. Anyone with an interest in DL should read the proposal0 -
That badeschiff proposal for the harbour is ridiculously expensive for punters, I think its a pity if theres never a public sea bath in the bay again.
The harbour is all private though, they can do as they wish as long as they think the can afford and fund it.What would you rather see, the dereliction remain exactly as is or a simple scheme that opens up the site and makes it accessible while improving the visual and continuing the busy route from Sandycove to the Pier? The thing is being built in such a way that it doesnt obstruct a future building of sea-baths if money becomes available.
The baths are in a rather odd position as far as I am aware. The have been classified as derelict and dangerous and need to be demolished. At the same time they are listed and so must be protected...
Because security, insulation and energy usage reduction trumps minor visual changes.pedroeibar1 wrote:S#ite PVC windows have been installed in many nice buildings....why has that been allowed?0 -
Ive heard the Govt has a plan to end the private management of a lot of harbours, including DL, by Harbour Companies. DL Harbour will become the responsibility of the CoCo and they will take on its functions and the masterplan to develop the side of it. Theres probably good and bad in that idea, but at least it can be co-ordinated with what the CoCo are doing rather than competing and hopefully theyll straight away end the practice of clamping in the Harbour area, it has destroyed peoples habit of walking the Piers0
-
that's from 2005. what ever about the idea i'm sure the figures would be very different.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14646
that's from 2005. what ever about the idea i'm sure the figures would be very different.
Who knows, even at prices for development eight years ago it seems a lot for:"My preference would be for the development of a heated 25 metre pool on the site, together with a children's paddling pool and a café with views across Dublin Bay. I'd also like to see a small gym in the development. This might cost around 15 million Euro. That would be around the same price as the Monkstown ringroad proposals that were published by Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council last week. Why not drop the road and spend the money on the Baths instead?
"I don't want to see a high rise proposal on the site, and I don't want to see infill of ScotsmansBay."
Anyone in the area should take a walk down today to see why this spot is not the best location to start building beaches, baths etc.0 -
Advertisement
-
Cookie_Monster wrote: »Because security, insulation and energy usage reduction trumps minor visual changes.
There are alternatives to horribly clunky PVC. Nor is security an issue on upper floor windows on Georges St, so the many top-hanging windows are both ugly and not necessary. Window opes are the eyes of a building, they should not be filled with s#1t pvc/aluminium. It is like putting really cheap, ugly glasses on a pretty face.0 -
Quite, but I'm not suggesting that they redevelop. Property owners have obligations. Outside of the legal position, Dunnes would not want a PR war on their hands should councillors get off their respective posteriors and complain vocally about the condition of the Dunnes block. A lick of paint would go a long way.
Basic maintenance is one thing, but you cant force a private entity to invest where there is no trade. So long as they dont commence any work, any current planning permission withers after 5 years.No function here for the CoCo, the shops are let by private owners, charity shops pay money to rent them, they are engaged in retail trade which is what the buildings are zoned for. The country is on its knees so charity shops are booming, thats just where we are right now. Wouldnt begrudge them any money they make for cancer, homelessness etc either.
I question that the shops are booming because of the economy - the number is expanding because any bit of rent on a short/no lease is better than nothing to a broke landlord. Most have permanent 'sales' with everything €1 or €2. If it is allowed continue then the CoCo should decide that it does not want to make DL an upmarket venue and throw in the towel on efforts to beautify/upgrade the place. I've no issue with an occasional charity shop, but allowing a district to be overrun with them in prime locations is not good planning.Presumably the facility will be managed better than the old park that preceded it, however the scale of it is a bit scary, turning out much more imposing than the plans suggested. Taking a wait and see on this one.
The visuals shown on the coco site at preplanning were very 'massaged' and gave rise to comment at that time.The locals rejected a plan to make Vico one-way some years ago, now its a case of 3 into 2 doesnt go. Killiney Hill is a wild common land park, I wouldnt expect it to be manicured, but in fairness some of the parks around the area are kept beautifully. Cabinteely, Marley, Peoples Park look really well.
One stretch of Vico is one-way; I never heard of any plan to make all of it one-way, I cannot see how that would work, given alternatives? I'm not suggesting that the Park be manicured, but the state of the railings (broken/bent/rusty), broken walls, the overgrowth of briars, bracken, etc., is unkempt and ugly, not 'wild'. The concrete (massed) on the side was built more than a metre out from the edge in places, that space is now jungle. Nor are the paths kept clear of briars (last time I was up there) and the open space above Whiterock used to be kept cut when I was a kid.0 -
Anyone in the area should take a walk down today to see why this spot is not the best location to start building beaches, baths etc.
The Scotsmans bay 'Beach' plan was Celtic Tiger at its height and another example of DLRCC's disconnect with reality. Anybody with an ounce of wit would ask what that corner is like in any gale from N to SE and it would not take a hydrographical study to show the unsuitability of trying to build a beach.
@Ted1 - Scotsmans Bay actually is substantially infilled, it happened in the 1920's - the seafront road was built then, the park area reclaimed/built up. The work was done by ex WW1 servicemen from the Labour Exchange who found it hard to get work (an idea that could be replicated today!) Link Rd in Glasthule had gates, an entrance to a big house and the only other house on it was the Fever Hospital, - part of the walls remain, integrated into Maryville.0 -
what also helped to kill dun laoghaire was the way in which they made the main street heading towards the hospital a one way street which imo was an absolutely stupid idea0
-
-
One major culprit which is holding Dun Laoghaire and indeed other coastal towns like Blackrock and especially Dalkey back from competing properly with the newer town centers is the overly stringent conservation laws. To a certain extent, I can understand the need to preserve a towns character. However, upon reading some of the documents which outline measures for conservation, some of the regulations have seriously negative implications for urban and suburban vitality. For example, it discourages modest scale advertisement panels or illuminated signage along commercial building fascia. Apparently, the reason for this is to prevent "visual clutter" which is a rather petty reason at that. It is completely out of touch with modern business practices and particularly, those which stimulate revenue.
Other examples of restrictions include limitations on the size (square footage) of retail units. The way I see it is, if shop owners and other merchants can find a way to achieve maximum retail unit space without destructive alterations to the build facade, be my guest. One of the reasons why the newer town centers are doing so well is that their retail units are much bigger in scale and hence, are able to accommodate better variety.
The two aforementioned examples of conservation measures seem to be closely tied in with the prevalent coastal NIMBY attitude which is choking the life out of the towns along it. Whilst I amn't suggesting the destruction of the character in these towns, I do think the level of nit picking seen in conservation documents needs to be heavily revised to remove obstacles to progress.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »One major culprit which is holding Dun Laoghaire and indeed other coastal towns like Blackrock and especially Dalkey back from competing properly with the newer town centers is the overly stringent conservation laws. To a certain extent, I can understand the need to preserve a towns character. However, upon reading some of the documents which outline measures for conservation, some of the regulations have seriously negative implications for urban and suburban vitality. For example, it discourages modest scale advertisement panels or illuminated signage along commercial building fascia. Apparently, the reason for this is to prevent "visual clutter" which is a rather petty reason at that. It is completely out of touch with modern business practices and particularly, those which stimulate revenue.
Other examples of restrictions include limitations on the size (square footage) of retail units. The way I see it is, if shop owners and other merchants can find a way to achieve maximum retail unit space without destructive alterations to the build facade, be my guest. One of the reasons why the newer town centers are doing so well is that their retail units are much bigger in scale and hence, are able to accommodate better variety.
The two aforementioned examples of conservation measures seem to be closely tied in with the prevalent coastal NIMBY attitude which is choking the life out of the towns along it. Whilst I amn't suggesting the destruction of the character in these towns, I do think the level of nit picking seen in conservation documents needs to be heavily revised to remove obstacles to progress.
I really think you havn't got a clue on no way can Dalkey compete with purpose built town centres, not should it. As a village it's not doing to bad. It serves its purpose, it would be destroyed if cheap and tacky billboards etc where allowed its a heritage town and should be preserved as such.
If you want generic town centres then you should just relocate to any town in England that has being ruined by generic high streets.
Purpose built town centres have sufficient parking, low energy buildings, no life after shops close, no soul, no appeal to tourists0 -
If anything conservation was too slack for too long. If you go to old cities in places like Germany and Austria, you can see how they blend modern signage and building use with stringent building conservation. They lost so much of their architectural heritage in the war they are very strict on preservation of whats left, and it doesnt hinder the ability of buildings to remain vital and useful. We are fortunate to have a decent architectural heritage, despite our best efforts to demolish it between the 1950s-80s, I dont think we can go too far in trying to protect it.0
-
I really think you havn't got a clue on no way can Dalkey compete with purpose built town centres, not should it. As a village it's not doing to bad. It serves its purpose, it would be destroyed if cheap and tacky billboards etc where allowed its a heritage town and should be preserved as such.
If you want generic town centres then you should just relocate to any town in England that has being ruined by generic high streets.
Purpose built town centres have sufficient parking, low energy buildings, no life after shops close, no soul, no appeal to tourists
Have to agree with this. I sometimes wonder why Patrick even chooses to live in the area considering some of his posts.0 -
-
I really think you havn't got a clue on no way can Dalkey compete with purpose built town centres, not should it.
-
Have to agree with this. I sometimes wonder why Patrick even chooses to live in the area considering some of his posts.
@Alias G, what exactly do you mean by "considering some of his posts"?As a village it's not doing to bad.
Now, it is turning itself around. I'll give you that. However, for a while, it was very grubby and the newly revamped and extended Eurospar is a welcome addition. Let's not forget The Tramyard which has become a hub unto itself. Nevertheless, there is a concrete box immediately behind Our Lady's Hall which severely tones down the surrounding area with metal bars on some of it's windows. I know it's The Dalkey Lions Club but, the owners could at least put some effort into making it more stylish. The recently closed warehouses adjacent to The Tramyard have a huge amount of untapped potential.It serves its purpose, it would be destroyed if cheap and tacky billboards etc where allowed its a heritage town and should be preserved as such.
There's a huge difference between billboards (such as those in Dalkey beside Topaz, AIB and above Mugs) and advertising panels (like bus shelter advertisements and window mounted TVs advertising products relevant to the store). If done right, they can smarten up a given area without resorting to being tacky. Look at the protruding illuminated Heineken sign at Wrights Dalkey Dispensary. Do you think these are tacky?If you want generic town centres then you should just relocate to any town in England that has being ruined by generic high streets.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with generic town centers provided that they are tastefully done.Purpose built town centres have sufficient parking, low energy buildings, no life after shops close, no soul, no appeal to tourists
This is where the abundance of bars and restaurants come in. However, I don't think buildings in towns or villages shouldn't be confined to a specific category of establishment. There needs to be a mix of shops, bars, restaurants and specialist stores such as cloths shops, toy stores, traditional cafes, exotic cuisine and a few decent bars for good measure.If anything conservation was too slack for too long. If you go to old cities in places like Germany and Austria, you can see how they blend modern signage and building use with stringent building conservation. They lost so much of their architectural heritage in the war they are very strict on preservation of whats left, and it doesnt hinder the ability of buildings to remain vital and useful. We are fortunate to have a decent architectural heritage, despite our best efforts to demolish it between the 1950s-80s, I dont think we can go too far in trying to protect it.
In this particular instance, the conservation slack "between the 1950s-80s" resulted in monstrosities like the Irish Fisheries Board, Hawkin's House and Phibsboro Shopping Center. The soon-to-be-finished Dun Laoghaire Library is not to dissimilar either. These types of buildings are nothing more than a series of concrete slabs that are completely devoid of any architectural merit and are bleak to put it politely. Having said that, large buildings like those in Citywest are built to a high standard with a pleasant mix of colour and materials.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Didn't mean to come across as hostile. Simply that your idea of the modern shopping experience as I believe you called it is simply never going to fit into the Dun Laoghaire or Dalkey model. These areas should be aiming to attract more artisan type stores. They are never going to compete with Dundrum anyway. Dun Laoghaire will still have a scattering of charity shops and there is no harm in that either since not everyone has money. It just strikes me that an apartment in Carrickmines or Dundrum would suit your tastes. All the modern shopping convenience you want and the M50 on your doorstep.0
-
The 'Business Improvement district' initiative is being covered on RTE radio 1, just now..
Today with Seán O'Rourke - Friday 18th October
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/
The listen back feature for today's show should be available. Coverage starts just over an hour into the podcast.0 -
like this you mean?I really think you havn't got a clue on no way can Dalkey compete with purpose built town centres, not should it. As a village it's not doing to bad. It serves its purpose, it would be destroyed if cheap and tacky billboards etc where allowed
http://goo.gl/maps/lIkPK0 -
Dun Laoghaire will still have a scattering of charity shops and there is no harm in that either since not everyone has money.
Off topic a bit but the charity shops are a great resource if you need a cheap way of making your own Halloween costume, got some great stuff recently for my daughter for a couple of euro21/25
0 -
Didn't mean to come across as hostile.
I appreciate that. Thanks!Simply that your idea of the modern shopping experience as I believe you called it is simply never going to fit into the Dun Laoghaire or Dalkey model.
Personally, I think the two areas need to play a more prominent role through revitalization. Otherwise, they will become stale and something of a "has-been".These areas should be aiming to attract more artisan type stores. They are never going to compete with Dundrum anyway.
Unfortunately, "artisan type stores" are aimed at minority groups. The result of this will be that more people will end up going elsewhere to do their shopping.Dun Laoghaire will still have a scattering of charity shops and there is no harm in that either since not everyone has money.
I understand that charity shops serve a good cause whether it's St. Vincent De Paul or Barnardos. Having said that, some of them aren't that well presented and have toned down their surroundings. Nevertheless, a lot of them sell very impressive items (collectibles, trinkets and other potential heirlooms) at rock bottom prices.It just strikes me that an apartment in Carrickmines or Dundrum would suit your tastes. All the modern shopping convenience you want and the M50 on your doorstep.
I've been living in Dalkey my whole life and I do love the area. However, from an insider perspective, I think a lot of the snobbery and NIMBY attitudes seen in many of the locals are given precedence over suburban vitality. This also goes for many neighboring towns as well. The uproar of Starbucks in Dalkey is a perfect example of snobbery in that "if it's not local, it's not welcome". It's one thing to be supportive of local business. It's quite another when people try to confine business types to local only. Chain stores, cafes and restaurants have become well established in many towns nationwide. More often than not, they are far more reasonable with prices then their local counterparts.
While Dundrum or Carrickmines would be ideal places to live in, it is another example of business being pulled away from the coastal towns. In general, I think that Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey have regressed and have fallen far behind newer town centers both economically and functionally. Think of the coastal towns and those along the Green Luas Line as being two sides of a balancing scale. Despite the fact that much of it is still a blank canvas, the towns along the Green Luas Line already hold much larger weight than those along the coast. Also, the hundreds or even thousands of acres adjacent to the Green Luas Line are earmarked for residential developments and more commercial development which will learn from the planning mistakes made along the coast. The impressions I get from future property developments along the Green Luas Line is that they will be strategically planned.0 -
A big problem with Dalkey and other older coastal suburbs is that they they lack the modern building infrastructure required by retailers of today. An analogous example might be Ranelagh, where there was a brand new building built specifically for a supermarket and offices. If a retailer wants to set up in Dalkey, it is going to be a bit more expensive than elsewhere to kit the unit out to expected specs.
This is at the same time as Dalkey having a relatively low population density, leading it to rely heavily on being a "destination" town. If more people lived within a 1km catchment then the town would be much more self-sustaining.
I'm not too familiar with the Starbucks fiasco, but it sounds like a case of shooting yourself in the foot. Even if Starbucks wasn't "local" it still would have boosted retail confidence. Now I'd imagine that many retailers wouldn't touch Dalkey with a bargepole.
Dalkey needs to loosen up a bit, or all of this preservationism could lead to unhalting decline.0 -
A big problem with Dalkey and other older coastal suburbs is that they they lack the modern building infrastructure required by retailers of today.
On that note, the road infrastructure between Dun Laoghaire and Shankill along the coast is shockingly bad. This holds true particularly, in Dalkey and further south where roads are barely suitable for cars let alone buses and much bigger vehicles. Dalkey Avenue, Barnhill Road and many of the roads in the Killiney area stand out the most in this regard in that they are too narrow for a suburban setting. While other roads like Castlepark Road, Hyde Road, Ulverton Road and Breffni/Sandycove Road aren't too bad, some of them still have cars parked on both sides hindering bus access. Given that Ulverton, Breffni and Sandycove Roads are collectively the most direct and main route to Dun Laoghaire, there should be double yellow lines most of the way along.
I'm sure that many people would agree that Fitzpatrick's Castle Hotel is a very prominent building to the south of Dalkey Town. In fact, it's a very big hotel on a similar scale to those in Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan and Sandyford. Yet, accessibility is very poor as all of the roads which feed on to it's grounds are inadequate. By it's very nature, it's a tourist attraction. As such, tour buses should be encouraged to visit the hotel on a regular basis on top of the existing Aircoach service. However, for buses to get in, it requires lengthy detours through roads which would be considered mediocre (at best) by today's standards. One would think that the local council might have reserved land for road widening between Dalkey and Fitzpatrick's Castle since the hotel was established in the 1970's. Unfortunately, the disorganized or non strategic residential planning in the intermediate area since then has left no room for adequate improvement to the road infrastructure. This also goes for the rest of the road network to the south-east of Fitzpatrick's Castle as far as Shankill.I'm not too familiar with the Starbucks fiasco, but it sounds like a case of shooting yourself in the foot. Even if Starbucks wasn't "local" it still would have boosted retail confidence.
There were numerous invalid reason's why people objected to Starbucks in Dalkey. Many of them where seen in a Bebo profile entitled "Dalkey Against Starbucks" which was really pathetic. Some people objected to it because it was an American brand which is xenophobic. Some people even cited the areas heritage as an excuse. Any argument that uses an areas heritage as a smoke screen for xenophobia is devoid of credibility and makes me embarrassed to be Irish.Dalkey needs to loosen up a bit, or all of this preservationism could lead to unhalting decline.
That makes two of us!0 -
Your a comedian...patrickbrophy18 wrote: »On that note, the road infrastructure between Dun Laoghaire and Shankill along the coast is shockingly bad. This holds true particularly, in Dalkey and further south where roads are barely suitable for cars let alone buses and much bigger vehicles. Dalkey Avenue, Barnhill Road and many of the roads in the Killiney area stand out the most in this regard in that they are too narrow for a suburban setting. While other roads like Castlepark Road, Hyde Road, Ulverton Road and Breffni/Sandycove Road aren't too bad, some of them still have cars parked on both sides hindering bus access. Given that Ulverton, Breffni and Sandycove Roads are collectively the most direct and main route to Dun Laoghaire, there should be double yellow lines most of the way along.
I'm sure that many people would agree that Fitzpatrick's Castle Hotel is a very prominent building to the south of Dalkey Town. In fact, it's a very big hotel on a similar scale to those in Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan and Sandyford. Yet, accessibility is very poor as all of the roads which feed on to it's grounds are inadequate. By it's very nature, it's a tourist attraction. As such, tour buses should be encouraged to visit the hotel on a regular basis on top of the existing Aircoach service. However, for buses to get in, it requires lengthy detours through roads which would be considered mediocre (at best) by today's standards. One would think that the local council might have reserved land for road widening between Dalkey and Fitzpatrick's Castle since the hotel was established in the 1970's. Unfortunately, the disorganized or non strategic residential planning in the intermediate area since then has left no room for adequate improvement to the road infrastructure. This also goes for the rest of the road network to the south-east of Fitzpatrick's Castle as far as Shankill.
There were numerous invalid reason's why people objected to Starbucks in Dalkey. Many of them where seen in a Bebo profile entitled "Dalkey Against Starbucks" which was really pathetic. Some people objected to it because it was an American brand which is xenophobic. Some people even cited the areas heritage as an excuse. Any argument that uses an areas heritage as a smoke screen for xenophobia is devoid of credibility and makes me embarrassed to be Irish.
That makes two of us!
The roads in the area date back a l0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »On that note, the road infrastructure between Dun Laoghaire and Shankill along the coast is shockingly bad. This holds true particularly, in Dalkey and further south where roads are barely suitable for cars let alone buses and much bigger vehicles. Dalkey Avenue, Barnhill Road and many of the roads in the Killiney area stand out the most in this regard in that they are too narrow for a suburban setting. While other roads like Castlepark Road, Hyde Road, Ulverton Road and Breffni/Sandycove Road aren't too bad, some of them still have cars parked on both sides hindering bus access. Given that Ulverton, Breffni and Sandycove Roads are collectively the most direct and main route to Dun Laoghaire, there should be double yellow lines most of the way along.
I'm sure that many people would agree that Fitzpatrick's Castle Hotel is a very prominent building to the south of Dalkey Town. In fact, it's a very big hotel on a similar scale to those in Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan and Sandyford. Yet, accessibility is very poor as all of the roads which feed on to it's grounds are inadequate. By it's very nature, it's a tourist attraction. As such, tour buses should be encouraged to visit the hotel on a regular basis on top of the existing Aircoach service. However, for buses to get in, it requires lengthy detours through roads which would be considered mediocre (at best) by today's standards. One would think that the local council might have reserved land for road widening between Dalkey and Fitzpatrick's Castle since the hotel was established in the 1970's. Unfortunately, the disorganized or non strategic residential planning in the intermediate area since then has left no room for adequate improvement to the road infrastructure. This also goes for the rest of the road network to the south-east of Fitzpatrick's Castle as far as Shankill.
There were numerous invalid reason's why people objected to Starbucks in Dalkey. Many of them where seen in a Bebo profile entitled "Dalkey Against Starbucks" which was really pathetic. Some people objected to it because it was an American brand which is xenophobic. Some people even cited the areas heritage as an excuse. Any argument that uses an areas heritage as a smoke screen for xenophobia is devoid of credibility and makes me embarrassed to be Irish.
That makes two of us!
Your a comedian the roads in the area date back a long time and there's not much scope to widen them. They add to the areas charm.
As suggested before by another poster I think you should really look at moving else where as you don't appreciate the area and want to change it so that it matched the soulless apartments/ concrete jungles being built in places like carrick mines.
As regards xenophobia that's a ridiculous comment, people didn't want Starbucks as they want to keep the charm if the village and keep it unique. To many villages have become clones in that they all ate copied of each other and offer the same shops etc. people want to keep Dalkey different
As regards killiney castle being a tourist attraction , it's the area and roads that make it such. It would lose its character if there was a wide modern road leading straight up to it.0 -
Advertisement
-
Your a comedian the roads in the area date back a long time and there's not much scope to widen them. They add to the areas charm.
Look, I'm not saying that every road in the area should be widened. And yes, I too agree that many of the narrow roads give the area an old world charm. Nevertheless, I do think roads such as Coliemore and Sorrento Road could be reconfigured into a one-way system as there are plenty of connecting roads which would allow cars to turn around. This would allow coastal coach tours to operate along Sorrento and Coliemore Roads. The surplus space would be allocated for the installation of sidewalks where they are lacking and a cycle track.As suggested before by another poster I think you should really look at moving else where as you don't appreciate the area and want to change it so that it matched the soulless apartments/ concrete jungles being built in places like carrick mines.
The problem with this logic is that the population and indeed, business will vacate coastal towns which would inevitably result in them becoming stale.As regards xenophobia that's a ridiculous comment, people didn't want Starbucks as they want to keep the charm if the village and keep it unique. To many villages have become clones in that they all ate copied of each other and offer the same shops etc. people want to keep Dalkey different
In this case, I think the planning of towns like Dalkey are being dictated to suit the locals which is commercial suicide. While I do acknowledge some recent local improvements, in general, I think Dalkey and other towns have backed themselves into something of an architectural comfort zone. In other words, anything remotely main stream causes locals to kick up a fuss. Outside of the local sect who want the area all to themselves, people outside of this and further afield wouldn't be bothered by the opening of a Starbucks in the town.As regards killiney castle being a tourist attraction , it's the area and roads that make it such. It would lose its character if there was a wide modern road leading straight up to it.
Sure, look at what happened to the Killiney Court and Dalkey Island Hotels. Narrow roads certainly did them huge favors:rolleyes:. Accessibility to both of them was very poor. Both were failing establishments and are now apartment blocks which only benefit their residents. This is exactly what I mean when I say potential gone to waste.0 -
A property bubble is what sealed he deals for the hotel,
Why struggle to make a couple if hundred k a year when you make millions in a day0 -
DLR have zoned Dalkey/Killiney as O/O - a unique designation which limits the areas in question to low-density dwellings only. Ostensibly this is to presrve the visual character of the area. A cynic might suggest that it is to preserve property prices in these well-heeled suburbs.
DLR is blind if they think that mandatory low-density will do anything to keep a village economy buoyant. All of Dalkey village's eggs are in the tourism basket. Without people visiting, how is a business to stay profitable in a low-density neighbourhood? It can't be all winebars and galleries.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »The problem with this logic is that the population and indeed, business will vacate coastal towns which would inevitably result in them becoming stale.
The problem with this idea is that you seem to think that most people want to live in bland, soulless places. I think you would find that given a choice, most people would prefer to live in somewhere like Dalkey, with all its village charm, then Carrickmines .patrickbrophy18 wrote: »Sure, look at what happened to the Killiney Court and Dalkey Island Hotels. Narrow roads certainly did them huge favors:rolleyes:. Accessibility to both of them was very poor. Both were failing establishments and are now apartment blocks which only benefit their residents. This is exactly what I mean when I say potential gone to waste.
Both failed because they were awful hotels that had nothing going for them often than their location. There are many hotels around the country that are in out of the way locations with small roads that didn't fail because they are actually good hotels first and foremost.
The Dalkey/Killiney area is one of the most beautiful areas in Dublin. I find it weird that people want to destroy it by putting up more advertising, more generic high street shops in the town and building more apartment blocks around the area.0 -
The problem with this idea is that you seem to think that most people want to live in bland, soulless places.
While Carrickmines is one end of the spectrum (i.e. a purpose built area), other locations such as Blackrock have got a more suitable mix of old and new architecture, fantastic infrastructure and are very accessible by a multitude of transport modes.I think you would find that given a choice, most people would prefer to live in somewhere like Dalkey, with all its village charm, then Carrickmines.
Don't get me wrong. I think Dalkey is a fantastic place to live.Both failed because they were awful hotels that had nothing going for them often than their location. There are many hotels around the country that are in out of the way locations with small roads that didn't fail because they are actually good hotels first and foremost.
I think the "many hotels around the country" which you are referring are situated well away from their competition. Furthermore, many of them are surrounded by acres of forestry, walkways, lakes and other amenities which are all part of their grounds. While many of them are situated along country roads, the majority of the roads I have seen which surround such hotels are a good bit wider than those found in the Dalkey and Killiney area.The Dalkey/Killiney area is one of the most beautiful areas in Dublin.
I amn't disputing this for a second. However, I think more strategic planning is needed albeit, in confined spaces or paths. For example, key roads such Dalkey Avenue and Barnhill Road will need to be widened at some stage in the future or made one-way. Large stretches of these particular roads see buses and other wide vehicles spilling over the center line on the straight. Many of the key rural roads that I have seen don't have this problem.I find it weird that people want to destroy it by putting up more advertising, more generic high street shops in the town and building more apartment blocks around the area.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!
Paradoxically, the modern apartment block known as Castle Mews, adjacent to McDonagh's pub in Dalkey has permanently hindered any opportunity to widen the entrance to Dalkey Avenue. This is precisely the kind of improper, non-strategic planning I am referring too. Not to mention that it is completely out of character with the surrounding area. The planners could have easily placed this in a location off the beaten track.0 -
The Dalkey/Killiney area is one of the most beautiful areas in Dublin. I find it weird that people want to destroy it by putting up more advertising, more generic high street shops in the town and building more apartment blocks around the area.
They are both situated close to the DART, which is currently an underutilised piece of public transport. Planning permission should allow as much (high density if necessary) accommodation to take advantage of this.
Planning based on some subjective visual aesthetic at the expense of people being able to take advantage of readily available public transport is daft.0 -
Advertisement
-
Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »They are both situated close to the DART, which is currently an underutilised piece of public transport. Planning permission should allow as much (high density if necessary) accommodation to take advantage of this.
Planning based on some subjective visual aesthetic at the expense of people being able to take advantage of readily available public transport is daft.
There's not much land available in either Dalkey or killiney. Anything would have to be high rise, which wouldn't be in keeping with the area. It would also obscure people's view.
To make areal difference to utilisation if a public transport system which is a really stupid reason to destroy an area. You would probably need an extra 10,000 units. As only a small percentage of these would use the dart.
Up by the luas beside tulleyvale there's open land with a view a development plan to build several thousand units. That'll utilise the luas.
If they really want to help utilise the dart, reduce bus routes that conflict with it. Reduce the price. Make parking cheaper.
As regards your last statement, that's really daft. I think your self a Patrick make every town generic Brophey should really look at moving in together in a purpose built soul less development like carrick mines. There's few historical buildings. a functional characterless retail park. Public transport and a motorway0 -
There's not much land available in either Dalkey or killiney. Anything would have to be high rise, which wouldn't be in keeping with the area. It would also obscure people's view.
Unfortunately, over the last 30-40 years, many of the residential developments in the Dalkey/Killiney area were constructed in a slapdash manor devoid of forward thinking. If you look at the residential areas of other nearby suburbs like Cabinteely, Glenageary and South Killiney, you will notice that many of the key roads have land reserved for road widening and QBC development. I also have reason to believe that Avondale Road was once earmarked for road widening given the amount of space between the boundaries at either side. Conversely, developments such as The Burgage, The Village Gate, Castle Mews and Termon in Dalkey where all built without considering traffic movement further south. Castlepark Court is another development that was built right on top of the road. Brilliant planning:rolleyes:! Ballinclea Heights and Wyvern in neighboring Killiney also failed in this regard. The only recent development I can think of that does tick all the boxes is the Castlepark Residents on the former Garden Center site. It is set back from the main road, it is aesthetically pleasing and yet, is medium rise and relatively high density.To make areal difference to utilisation if a public transport system which is a really stupid reason to destroy an area. You would probably need an extra 10,000 units. As only a small percentage of these would use the dart.
High density populations are generally encouraged in close proximity to high frequency rail routes.Up by the luas beside tulleyvale there's open land with a view a development plan to build several thousand units. That'll utilise the luas.
This sort of contradicts the logic of your statement before this.If they really want to help utilise the dart, reduce bus routes that conflict with it. Reduce the price. Make parking cheaper.
I completely disagree with this statement. If done correctly, the demand for paid parking could easily be transferred to localized DART feeder buses. This way, more cars are taken off the road. Before you say it, my previous comments for road widening are aimed at making the area more accessible to buses and HGVs.As regards your last statement, that's really daft. I think your self a Patrick make every town generic Brophey should really look at moving in together in a purpose built soul less development like carrick mines. There's few historical buildings. a functional characterless retail park. Public transport and a motorway
There's no need to be a smart ass!0 -
Planning permission has been submitted to build shops and apartments on land at the royal marine hotel.
These will be more or less built where the gravel car park is and an extension of the block that houses easons.
The path that goes around the corner where reasons is Will be eextended along the front of the new shops and will form the entrance to the hotel. It looks like the road is being shifted and trees planted to hide the shopping centre. The royal marine basement car park will be extended with an entrance in to the apartments.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Planning permission has been submitted to build shops and apartments on land at the royal marine hotel.
These will be more or less built where the gravel car park is and an extension of the block that houses easons.
The path that goes around the corner where reasons is Will be eextended along the front of the new shops and will form the entrance to the hotel. It looks like the road is being shifted and trees planted to hide the shopping centre. The royal marine basement car park will be extended with an entrance in to the apartments.
Glad to see this is progressing now, its been on the cards as the so called Pavillion III for many years and obviously the crash postponed it. Along with work recommencing on the 'Iceland' site its good to see more people will be living in and near the town centre, hopefully younger residents with a few quid to spend locally. If the town is to grow out of the mire then young indigenous consumers will be a vital part of it.0 -
Glad to see this is progressing now, its been on the cards as the so called Pavillion III for many years and obviously the crash postponed it. Along with work recommencing on the 'Iceland' site its good to see more people will be living in and near the town centre, hopefully younger residents with a few quid to spend locally. If the town is to grow out of the mire then young indigenous consumers will be a vital part of it.
What work on the old Iceland site? Still just says 'Sale agreed'.?0 -
Advertisement
Advertisement