Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 08:21PM #1

Cabaal wrote: »

Its scary that this guy actually believes what he is saying is factual

What exactly is he saying that is "scaring you"?

"In my/our DNA" is a figure of speech.

Aren't Labour making moves against the church in schools and hospitals, Councillors and Chaplains for example? Isn't Labour's Ivana Bacik the darling of Atheist Ireland? In any case Gilmore is a disgraced liar motivated by self-interest.

Gilmore, who has led calls against a second referendum, has told the Embassy separately that he fully expects, and would support, holding a second referendum in 2009. He explained his public posture of opposition to a second referendum as "politically necessary" for the time being.
http://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08DUBLIN433_a.html

What else? Oh yeah, according to our own census we are as a nation over 90% Christian.

Days 298 · 03-01-2014 08:54PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What exactly is he saying that is "scaring you"?

"In my/our DNA" is a figure of speech.

Implying that being Christian is a part of the Irish identity and ingrained in society. Its not in the modern Irish one anyway.It also imply we should not remove it. When their benchmark is the Arab autocracies you realise what a f*cked up country we would still live in if these headcases had their way.

Aren't Labour making moves against the church in schools and hospitals, Councillors and Chaplains for example? Isn't Labour's Ivana Bacik the darling of Atheist Ireland? In any case Gilmore is a disgraced liar motivated by self-interest.

And correction it is the Catholic Hierarchy and its minions consisting of OAPs are motivated by self interest. Wanting non denominational healthcare and schooling choice for other citizens is hardly self interest. Its actually quite considerate and progressive.

What else? Oh yeah, according to our own census we are as a nation over 90% Christian.

I've heard that before.... generally from an OAP giving out about any change of any kind in the country.

No matter how much religion and its fundamentalists kick and screams the average Irish citizen, religious or atheist, is in favour of and never objecting to change to progress society and make it more inclusive. One of the biggest problems is how far behind and slow moving our politicians are.

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 09:29PM

Days 298 wrote: »

Implying that being Christian is a part of the Irish identity and ingrained in society. Its not in the modern Irish one anyway.

Can't believe that you would try and deny the centuries old roots of Christianity in Ireland and it's significant role in what was to become our nations evolution

Days 298 wrote: »

It also imply we should not remove it.

Not neccessarily.

Days 298 wrote: »

Not my religion. Let me turn this around on you. What compromises would you (numerically insignificant minority) be prepared to make with the people you are referring to in negative terms repeatedly
who are officially the overwhelming majority?

Couldn't Stewart's quote equally apply to "persecuted" atheists? In other words would you accept "not getting everything you want"?

Days 298 wrote: »

And correction it is the Catholic Hierarchy and its minions consisting of OAPs are motivated by self interest. Wanting non denominational healthcare and schooling choice for other citizens is hardly self interest. Its actually quite considerate and progressive.

That doesn't make any sense. How is what you've just said any kind of "correction" to Gilmore being exposed by Wikileaks of lying to the Irish public?

Days 298 wrote: »

I've heard that before.... generally from an OAP giving out about any change of any kind in the country.

No.
You would have heard it from the Central Statistics Office.

Days 298 wrote: »

No matter how much religion and its fundamentalists kick and screams the average Irish citizen, religious or atheist, is in favour of and never objecting to change to progress society and make it more inclusive. One of the biggest problems is how far behind and slow moving our politicians are.

And where do these "headcases" who you clearly hold in contempt fit into your inclusive utopia?

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 09:53PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You would have heard it from the Central Statistics Office.

Which page of Census 2011: Profile 7 - Religion, Ethnicity and Irish Travellers are you referring to?

The thing that I find interesting about the CSO's data, is that they count Roman Catholicism as one religion, and then combine all of the other Christian denominations with other religions. Seems to me like it would make more sense to group the Christian denominations together, and have the other religions separate.

Anyway, the CSO stat from 2011 is 84% Catholic - which is the lowest number on record since the 1961 rate of 94%. I also know that many of those who would indicate 'Catholic' on the census form, aren't practicing Catholics, or else understand their 'Catholicism' in cultural terms more than religious terms. Also, if we have to deduct the 110,410 of those who are Polish nationals, then the number is down to 81.7%. Actually, I mean it's down to 75.9% if you deduct all of those other-national Catholics and look only at the number or Irish Catholics counted.

The other very interesting thing to watch over the next few census years, will be how the rate changes for the younger age groups - how many of the under-40s and under-30s. That's going to be a very interesting development.

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 10:00PM

AerynSun wrote: »

Also, if we have to deduct the 110,410 of those who are Polish nationals, then the number is down to 81.7%. Actually, I mean it's down to 75.9% if you deduct all of those other-national Catholics and look only at the number or Irish Catholics counted.

.

What are you talking about? Are Polish Catholics lesser citizens???

I said Ireland was OFFICALLY 90% CHRISTIAN.

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 10:04PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What are you talking about? Are Polish Catholics lesser citizens???

I said Ireland was OFFICALLY 90% CHRISTIAN.

From some of the things I see and hear (here and out on the street), I don't know that I have an answer for you: do we count the Polish when they add to the number of Catholics, but we don't count them when we're selling our cars?

Anyway - so that 90% Christian figure: comes from adding the 84% Catholic to which 'other Christian' figures? Can you give me a quick tally of the Christian figures that you're talking about? (They're all there, in Profile 7)

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 10:17PM

So by my count, from Census 2011 - we're talking about these numbers? Are all of these 'Christian' by accepted/agreed definition?

TOTAL POPULATION: 4,588,252

Roman Catholic: 3,861,335 (of all nationalities, not just Irish)
Church of Ireland [including Protestant] (which makes me wonder how the Census officials understood 'Protestant'): 129,039
Orthodox: 45,223
Presbyterian: 24,600
Apostolic or Pentecostal: 14,043
Methodist: 6,842
Jehovah's Witness (Christian if you ask them): 6,149
Lutheran: 5,683
Evangelical: 4,188
Baptist: 3,531
Latter Day Saints [Mormon] (also Christian by their own definition): 1,284
Quaker: 925
Brethren: 336 (I have no idea whether I should be counting them? Are these like the Masons?)

Lapsed Roman Catholic: 1,279 (sure now why do they have their own category on the census? Do we count them as Christians or do we count them as people with no religion?)

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 10:27PM

AerynSun wrote: »

So by my count, from Census 2011 - we're talking about these numbers? Are all of these 'Christian' by accepted/agreed definition?

TOTAL POPULATION: 4,588,252

Roman Catholic: 3,861,335 (of all nationalities, not just Irish)
Church of Ireland [including Protestant] (which makes me wonder how the Census officials understood 'Protestant'): 129,039
Orthodox: 45,223
Presbyterian: 24,600
Apostolic or Pentecostal: 14,043
Methodist: 6,842
Jehovah's Witness (Christian if you ask them): 6,149
Lutheran: 5,683
Evangelical: 4,188
Baptist: 3,531
Latter Day Saints [Mormon] (also Christian by their own definition): 1,284
Quaker: 925
Brethren: 336 (I have no idea whether I should be counting them? Are these like the Masons?)

Lapsed Roman Catholic: 1,279 (sure now why do they have their own category on the census? Do we count them as Christians or do we count them as people with no religion?)

Again, not sure what your point is. Never heard of Brethren before, but they are Christian as are all the others listed except for "lapsed Catholic" which we can disregard which still leaves us with 90% Christian.

http://christianity.about.com/od/Church-Of-The-Brethren/a/The-Brethren-Beliefs.htm

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 10:38PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Again, not sure what your point is. Never heard of Brethren before, but they are Christian as are all the others listed except for "lapsed Catholic" which we can disregard which still leaves us with 90% Christian.

http://christianity.about.com/od/Church-Of-The-Brethren/a/The-Brethren-Beliefs.htm

Well, if we add up all of those figures I listed, Ireland is officially 89.4% Christian. And given that there's a broad range of theology and ideology covered in the denominations listed, when we start talking about legislation and public administration needing to take Christian values into account - it opens up a range of questions about how different Christians understand and feel about different issues. We can say "nearly 90% of the population would agree with a Christian approach to the way we run our schools", but in practice, what does that actually mean in terms of the specifics? Do ALL Christians hold the same views and opinions about every aspect of the education system? And if they don't... how do we go about reconciling an argument based on doing something because it's the "Christian preference"?

If anything, this highlights the need for more dialogue and constructive debate about the many issues - rather than holding our ground and saying "we're an 89.4% majority, so what we want, goes"?

Days 298 · 03-01-2014 10:44PM

What difference does it make if 90% of the country tick the Christian box on the census? What is the point being made? We all know that no where near 90% of Christians here follow Christian/Catholic doctrine. Just watch the Gay Marriage Referendum and the public opinion polls during the abortion debate. We arent a Christian society. Not even a Catholic society which is the predominant domination.
How does the 90% figure affect anything? As the man in the OP link complained the church is not in charge of social engineering, he believed labour is when in truth the people are

hfallada · 03-01-2014 10:56PM

I have spent the last month researching interculturalism for a college paper. This most obvious example is Quebec in Canada, which fears it will lose its culture and identity with foreign migrants. Interculturalism means the Quebeckers doesnt have to comprise on their heritage such as their language and particularly their strong catholic faith. All Quebecs leaders have catholic funerals and christmas decorations are found all over state buildings.

But most importantly Quebeckers acknowledge they must be inclusive of people who are "different" aka the migrants. Irish schools are not in any way inclusive of "different". At the moment its a catholic church run school or tough. The irish education system hasnt changed to be inclusive. Quebec has learned being inclusive dont have to comprise their heritage but can strengthen national identify which is more important. This isnt my opinion, but what several academic papers have stated.

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 10:59PM

AerynSun wrote: »

Well, if we add up all of those figures I listed, Ireland is officially 89.4% Christian. And given that there's a broad range of theology and ideology covered in the denominations listed, when we start talking about legislation and public administration needing to take Christian values into account - it opens up a range of questions about how different Christians understand and feel about different issues. We can say "nearly 90% of the population would agree with a Christian approach to the way we run our schools", but in practice, what does that actually mean in terms of the specifics? Do ALL Christians hold the same views and opinions about every aspect of the education system? And if they don't... how do we go about reconciling an argument based on doing something because it's the "Christian preference"?

If anything, this highlights the need for more dialogue and constructive debate about the many issues - rather than holding our ground and saying "we're an 89.4% majority, so what we want, goes"?

Okay, let's take an example...

Officially 9 out of 10 Irish citizens at a minimum should have no objection to a crucifix hanging in a public classroom. Do you object to this? Is this something you could compromise on and accept as the will of the majority?

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 11:03PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay, let's take an example...

Officially 9 out of 10 Irish citizens at a minimum should have no objection to a crucifix hanging in a public classroom. Do you object to this? Is this something you could compromise on and accept as the will of the majority?

Ooooo... if you had said 8 out of 10, I would have said that was a reasonable but debatable assertion - because crucifixes are a Catholic symbol.

If you're telling me 9 out of 10, then I'm going to dispute that, because all of those other Christian denominations that make up the 89.4% wouldn't themselves be fans of having a crucifix. They'd be okay with a cross - but not with the Christ figure attached to it. I know this from years of working in a multi-denominational environment.

And even so - of the 8 out of 10 who are Catholic, I still think it's debatable whether all of them would feel it was necessary to have a crucifix in a classroom before any constructive teaching/learning can take place. It wouldn't get in the way, but not having one shouldn't be an issue.

Days 298 · 03-01-2014 11:08PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay, let's take an example...

Officially 9 out of 10 Irish citizens at a minimum should have no objection to a crucifix hanging in a public classroom. Do you object to this? Is this something you could compromise on and accept as the will of the majority?

No. There are alot of secular minded people who identify as Christian on the census. Just because they wouldnt object doesnt mean its right. Again the example being Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia.

Should we just accept that Pro-Life and a ban on gay marriage are the will of the majority too as the census says it should be.

Or is it the case of while in Rome and the 1 in 10 should just accept that they are a threat to Irish (Catholic) culture and identity and shut up or leave.

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 11:12PM

AerynSun wrote: »

Ooooo... if you had said 8 out of 10, I would have said that was a reasonable but debatable assertion - because crucifixes are a Catholic symbol.

If you're telling me 9 out of 10, then I'm going to dispute that, because all of those other Christian denominations that make up the 89.4% wouldn't themselves be fans of having a crucifix. They'd be okay with a cross - but not with the Christ figure attached to it. I know this from years of working in a multi-denominational environment.

And even so - of the 8 out of 10 who are Catholic, I still think it's debatable whether all of them would feel it was necessary to have a crucifix in a classroom before any constructive teaching/learning can take place. It wouldn't get in the way, but not having one shouldn't be an issue.

I feel you are being a little bit pedantic. I'm not long back from Greece and I know the Orthodox Churches use Crucifixes and I've definitely seen them in every Lutheran Church that I've been to where I live in Sweden.

The point is are you as a secularist (I assume) prepared to compromise and live in a partially religious society? All I am seeing is a clash between two ends of the extreme. I'm starting to think it is less about religion and more about politics. Conservatives/patriots/nationalists vs progressive, feminist marxist types.

Skrynesaver · 03-01-2014 11:13PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay, let's take an example...

Officially 9 out of 10 Irish citizens at a minimum should have no objection to a crucifix hanging in a public classroom. Do you object to this? Is this something you could compromise on and accept as the will of the majority?

Yes, I have a problem with a crucifix in a classroom, more than 90% of people have no objection to an absence of cucifix in a room, so why would we put an exclusive symbol in a publicly funded space?

Ash.J.Williams · 03-01-2014 11:16PM

Liberal agenda - a group of people who can't be arsed going to mass and make up their own minds about things using facts.

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 11:20PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is are you as a secularist (I assume) prepared to compromise and live in a partially religious society? All I am seeing is a clash between two ends of the extreme. I'm starting to think it is less about religion and more about politics. Conservatives/patriots/nationalists vs progressive, feminist marxist types.

Until quite recently I was a deeply religious progressive feminist. Ironically, it was the conservatively religious end of the spectrum that wasn't prepared to let me be freely and fully myself and kept insisting that I let go of my progressive feminist socialism if I wanted to call myself genuinely religious. I can't tell you how offensive I found that, it was an extremely political demand from a quarter that I had (until then!) considered to be my home ground. As a result... I upped and offed and 'went over' to the secular side. Because the secular side was less political than the religious environment in which I found myself.

So yes, you can push me to 'agree' that I'd be okay with a crucifix in a classroom (because honestly, I would be FINE with it - apart from that it can be a symbol of oppression for the minorities in the room!)... but... why can't you come over to this side and say that you'd be absolutely okay with getting an education in a crucifix-free zone? Why do you NEED there to be a crucifix in the room before you believe that your God is present in all the ways that matter (love, compassion, tenderness)?

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 11:25PM

Days 298 wrote: »

No..

So again, what are you prepared to compromise on? Or is it a zero-sum game for you?

And could you please reread your John Stewart quote and say if it applies to you?

Skrynesaver · 03-01-2014 11:29PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So again, what are you prepared to compromise on? Or is it a zero-sum game for you?

And could you please reread your John Stewart quote and say if it applies to you?

Are you trolling or do you genuinely not see the difference between an absence of religious influence in the public sphere and its presence?

If you share a meal with a Christian friend and they insist on bacon in the meal, are you failing to accomodate them if you ask for something you can both eat?

Nodin · 03-01-2014 11:35PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I feel you are being a little bit pedantic. I'm not long back from Greece and I know the Orthodox Churches use Crucifixes and I've definitely seen them in every Lutheran Church that I've been to where I live in Sweden.

The point is are you as a secularist (I assume) prepared to compromise and live in a partially religious society? All I am seeing is a clash between two ends of the extreme. I'm starting to think it is less about religion and more about politics. Conservatives/patriots/nationalists vs progressive, feminist marxist types.

Jaysus no, not the feminists....I'm scared now.

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 11:36PM

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Are you trolling or do you genuinely not see the difference between an absence of religious influence in the public sphere and its presence?

If you share a meal with a Christian friend and they insist on bacon in the meal, are you failing to accomodate them if you ask for something you can both eat?

That is an opportunity to build bridges through, dialogue, tolerance, and mutual respect is it not?

Skrynesaver · 03-01-2014 11:38PM

Because if your Christian friend respects you they will not shove the unaceptable down your throat?

Bannasidhe · 03-01-2014 11:40PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can't believe that you would try and deny the centuries old roots of Christianity in Ireland and it's significant role in what was to become our nations evolution

Believe that I would not only try, I would disprove that Christianity had the roots or the significant role in Gaelic Ireland that you claim for it.

It's 'significant' role was a present from our island neighbours on the island to our right (ironic eh!) and used then as justification for violent conquest (twice) - the Irish just weren't Christian enough said Rome (constantly) and Canterbury (several times). The inability of the Irish to be 'proper' Christians was one of the few things all sides agreed on during the Reformation. Go Us!

Bannasidhe · 03-01-2014 11:41PM

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus no, not the feminists....I'm scared now.

BOO.

:pac:

Nodin · 03-01-2014 11:42PM

they've found me....sweet mother of Christ.....

Brown Bomber · 03-01-2014 11:43PM

AerynSun wrote: »

Until quite recently I was a deeply religious progressive feminist. Ironically, it was the conservatively religious end of the spectrum that wasn't prepared to let me be freely and fully myself and kept insisting that I let go of my progressive feminist socialism if I wanted to call myself genuinely religious. I can't tell you how offensive I found that, it was an extremely political demand from a quarter that I had (until then!) considered to be my home ground. As a result... I upped and offed and 'went over' to the secular side. Because the secular side was less political than the religious environment in which I found myself.

So yes, you can push me to 'agree' that I'd be okay with a crucifix in a classroom (because honestly, I would be FINE with it - apart from that it can be a symbol of oppression for the minorities in the room!)... but... why can't you come over to this side and say that you'd be absolutely okay with getting an education in a crucifix-free zone? Why do you NEED there to be a crucifix in the room before you believe that your God is present in all the ways that matter (love, compassion, tenderness)?

Of course I'd be fine with or without. I live in a secular state. My wife is agnostic but has Rosary Beads from South America hanging up, Buddhas all over the place and I have an ornate Quran that I was given as a gift, I even have the Pharonic key to life symbol. I treat them all with respect, not because of any supernatural powers they may have but out of respect of what they symbolise to others. I really don't understand why others can't extend this same level of respect to others.

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 11:44PM

Nodin wrote: »

they've found me....sweet mother of Christ.....

We used Brian Shanahan's microscope from the other thread... :P

Sarky · 03-01-2014 11:46PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Believe that I would not only try, I would disprove that Christianity had the roots or the significant role in Gaelic Ireland that you claim for it.

It's 'significant' role was a present from our island neighbours on the island to our right (ironic eh!) and used then as justification for violent conquest (twice) - the Irish just weren't Christian enough said Rome (constantly) and Canterbury (several times). The inability of the Irish to be 'proper' Christians was one of the few things all sides agreed on during the Reformation. Go Us!

Heh, I am just after an outraged uberCatholic telling me on Twitter that if not for the RCC we'd all be Unionists. I immediately thought of you. ^_^

Days 298 · 03-01-2014 11:48PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So again, what are you prepared to compromise on? Or is it a zero-sum game for you?

And could you please reread your John Stewart quote and say if it applies to you?

I said no to the 9 out of 10 would have no problem with the cross.

I believe in separation of state and church. Where everyone feels included. I went to a Catholic secondary school and I felt excluded due to my lack of faith in some classes and addresses by the principal.

My compromise is no child or adult should feel excluded from a state address like the Christmas address or a state funded building like a school or hospital

I've no problem with individuals expressing their faith in public. Decorate you hospital bed with your faiths objects. My problem is if I go to use a hospital I find crosses placed everywhere by the state funded hospital. Private hospitals can do as they please IMO as well as schools.

Here's the compromise. Freedom of expression and practice of religion for all but the state should not endow a faith.

It's easy. We all live side by side. All feeling included in our multicultural society and no one left out due to their faith or lack of. What's wrong with that?

AerynSun · 03-01-2014 11:48PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I really don't understand why others can't extend this same level of respect to others.

In my experience, it's because a lot of the 'dialogue' is done in a very competitive spirit. If I feel like someone is trying to get me to submit to their superiority, then I will fight with all my might against whatever it is that they're proposing. But if I feel that the person is genuinely interested in understanding, and is willing to respect difference... then it's a different conversation.

Sally Kohn makes a good point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCJTV5KaJJc

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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