Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

ABC101

ABC101 wrote: »

That's one way of looking at it.... but I would not be so certain that it was a bid to stamp out "pagan practices".

From what we know of Newgrange, Stonehedge etc, these "pagan practices" which you mention, where most probably celebrated on the 21st of December. Christmas is celebrated on the 25th Dec.

If people wish to celebrate some form of spirituality on the 21st, then that is their choice.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And now how do you deal with the acceptance of the gregorian calander system in the 1700's?
When would that mean you should celebrate xmas?

ABC101

Robbie, Pencil, AyernSun, Brian, Old Hippy, Canis...

I don't have the time or the energy to engage in multiple "conversations", and anyway you all outnumber me.

Brian... I was not very impressed with your link, on the top corner of the page was "Shadowy Mr Big behind worldwide criminal organisation. Known as Jesus, Christ" etc etc.

How Mr Kenneth Humphrey's expects to engage in any conversation with Christian people is beyond me when he is using such insulting language.

In relation to the killing of pagans to convert to Christianity... I am not aware of St Patrick having killed anybody. I think it is best as this forum is based in Ireland, and mainly used by people living in Ireland that we keep our debate to Ireland.

@ All,

O.K. let me put it like this... if the Christian Churches around the world decided to change the date of Christmas, from December 25th to some other date... lets say 25th May (just for argument) would the last days of December (25th) still be called Christmas?

Or would the period from 24th December to 1st January be given a new name i.e. Sun rebirth week etc?

old hippy

ABC101 wrote: »

Robbie, Pencil, AyernSun, Brian, Old Hippy, Canis...

In relation to the killing of pagans to convert to Christianity... I am not aware of St Patrick having killed anybody. I think it is best as this forum is based in Ireland, and mainly used by people living in Ireland that we keep our debate to Ireland.

So, nobody else gets a look in on the debate?

AerynSun

ABC101 wrote: »

In relation to the killing of pagans to convert to Christianity... I am not aware of St Patrick having killed anybody. I think it is best as this forum is based in Ireland, and mainly used by people living in Ireland that we keep our debate to Ireland.

If that rule had applied in the old days when whoever arrived on the boat carrying Christianity with them, Ireland would be a very different place today.

But as it is... Christianity is a part of Ireland's story... and Christianity's story includes its history before it arrived in Ireland. Seems reasonable to me.

... if the Christian Churches around the world decided to change the date of Christmas, from December 25th to some other date... lets say 25th May (just for argument) would the last days of December (25th) still be called Christmas?

Are the Christian Churches making this generous offer to move the festival to another more convenient time of the year? I think plopping it down just after Easter is a good idea: will lift the spirits on the whole crucifixion thing that's gone on just prior, and give people a nice reason to be happy about the saviour's rebirth.

That aside, what does it matter what the winter festival is called? Doesn't change a thing. Except it would make Michael D.'s speech writing job a lot easier and he'd be taking less flak for not saying something specifically Christ related in his address.

ABC101

old hippy wrote: »

So, nobody else gets a look in on the debate?

It was only a suggestion... and I made it because I don't have much knowledge of other worldwide events. In addition if we starting bringing in other geographical areas... i.e. in 1802 in Iceland etc then the thread will balloon out, etc. Obviously if you have a comment which you feel is relevant.. then join in.

Penn

ABC101 wrote: »

@ All,

O.K. let me put it like this... if the Christian Churches around the world decided to change the date of Christmas, from December 25th to some other date... lets say 25th May (just for argument) would the last days of December (25th) still be called Christmas?

Or would the period from 24th December to 1st January be given a new name i.e. Sun rebirth week etc?

Interesting question. On one hand, it'd be very difficult to just expect everyone to suddenly start calling it by a different name. On the other, it would be an opportunity to establish it as a social and cultural celebration which isn't associated with any religion.

I'd imagine they'd choose a new name for it (though hopefully not "Sun Rebirth Week"). Our notions of Christmas are intrinsically linked to Winter and the end of the year, so the general holiday would remain as Dec 25th even if they picked a new name for it. Really though, there is no group or committee who decides such a thing though, so it'd be decided through time. Some people might start calling it something new, then more people call it that too, and more... by then it has a new name, but that could be generations.

Question is, if the religious aspect of Christmas was moved to May 25th (as per your argument), do you think it would ever be as widely celebrated as Christmas currently is? Only the religious aspects of religion, which means no giving presents, no decorations etc.

Brown Bomber

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Why would he have to? Why would he have to specifically mention that it's a holiday which largely stems from Christianity?

His speech in full:


Why do you think there was any need whatsoever to mention Jesus or Christianity? Yes, Christmas was largely derived from other pagan festivals but over time became more of a Christian celebration. This in turn over time is becoming more of a social celebration rather than simply a Christian one. Why do atheists celebrate Christmas? Because it's no longer a religious celebration, it's a social and cultural celebration (as evident by the fact that the vast majority of standard Christmas traditions have nothing to do with Christianity).

So, why should Michael D. have mentioned Christianity? I wouldn't have cared if he did. But also, I can't see why anyone should care that he didn't. He didn't disparage the faith or even say himself that it's no longer simply a religious event, he simply focused on more important things in his message. His message was very inclusive of all (as it should be) as per the parts I bolded.

So I ask again, why should he have to mention Christianity?

Because of two facts which many here seem to be in denial about 1- Ireland is overwhelmingly Christian (see the Census) 2-Christmas is a Christian Festival which celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. (see any dictionary).

Many of these traditions are rooted in our Christian heritage. For example, my wife and all our secular neighbours will take down our CHRISTmas decorations on Jan 13. She is agnostic, was educated in a secular school and knows nothng at all about Christianity. Why? Because it is traditional. Why is it a tradition? Because of our Christian heritage which recognises Little Christmas.

Brown Bomber

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Interesting question. On one hand, it'd be very difficult to just expect everyone to suddenly start calling it by a different name. On the other, it would be an opportunity to establish it as a social and cultural celebration which isn't associated with any religion.

I'd imagine they'd choose a new name for it (though hopefully not "Sun Rebirth Week"). Our notions of Christmas are intrinsically linked to Winter and the end of the year, so the general holiday would remain as Dec 25th even if they picked a new name for it. Really though, there is no group or committee who decides such a thing though, so it'd be decided through time. Some people might start calling it something new, then more people call it that too, and more... by then it has a new name, but that could be generations.

Question is, if the religious aspect of Christmas was moved to May 25th (as per your argument), do you think it would ever be as widely celebrated as Christmas currently is? Only the religious aspects of religion, which means no giving presents, no decorations etc.

How does a religious celebration exclude decorations and presents???

lazygal

I thought little Christmas was the feast of the epiphany, January 6.

ABC101

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Question is, if the religious aspect of Christmas was moved to May 25th (as per your argument), do you think it would ever be as widely celebrated as Christmas currently is? Only the religious aspects of religion, which means no giving presents, no decorations etc.

Well obviously we are talking "hypothetically" here. I think the answer to your question would be provided in time... if the change was to be made, and then look at the situation in 300 years etc.

I am open to correction... but if the date was to be changed... I believe people who practice their Christian faith would change to the new date. After all, the date for Easter changes as the cycle of the moon varies with respect to the spring equinox.

But I would not go as far as saying that the new Christmas date, would not involve presents or decorations etc. And obviously the commercial side would try and get in on the new date to make more sales. In fact the commercial side could be delighted... they now have two dates, 25th May for Christians and 21st December for those who wish to celebrate winter equinox. They might even make a fortune!

As for non Christian believers... well they would be free to... well celebrate whatever they wish to celebrate during the last days of December.

Brown Bomber

lazygal wrote: »

I thought little Christmas was the feast of the epiphany, January 6.

I live in Sweden.

AerynSun

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Because of two facts which many here seem to be in denial about

I think you mean to say: Because of two contentious issues which many here are in disagreement about.

Just because your perspective is true for you, doesn't make it absolutely true. Other people have different perspectives, and you seem to be unable to step outside of your own perspective and try to understand different points of view.

Nobody's asking to give up your own point of view - but it would be good if you could at least demonstrate a willingness to try understand points of view that differ from your own, rather than arguing your perspective as if it was the only one that mattered.

This is supposed to be a dialogue, not a competition, yes?

Brown Bomber

AerynSun wrote: »

I think you mean to say: Because of two contentious issues which many here are in disagreement about.

Just because your perspective is true for you, doesn't make it absolutely true. Other people have different perspectives, and you seem to be unable to step outside of your own perspective and try to understand different points of view.

Nobody's asking to give up your own point of view - but it would be good if you could at least demonstrate a willingness to try understand points of view that differ from your own, rather than arguing your perspective as if it was the only one that mattered.

This is supposed to be a dialogue, not a competition, yes?

It has nothing to do with perspective. I mentioned the word "facts" in the post you quoted. Which of the following isn't a fact?

1. Ireland is officially 90% Catholic.
2. Every dictionary will tell you that Christmas is a Christian festival which celebrates the birth of Jesus.

lazygal

Ireland's officially 84% catholic according to the census.


I know of many people who don't follow any catholic teachings yet tick the catholic box, my father included.

AerynSun

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It has nothing to do with perspective. I mentioned the word "facts" in the post you quoted. Which of the following isn't a fact?

1. Ireland is officially 90% Catholic.
2. Every dictionary will tell you that Christmas is a Christian festival which celebrates the birth of Jesus.

1. WRONG! According to Census 2011, Ireland is officially 84% Catholic. So now you're even changing your own argument, where previously you were trying to shore up your 90% by using the term 'Christian' rather than 'Catholic' in a bid to keep your 90% looking healthy. You've just blown your credibility out of the water. And aside from that you STILL have not answered the many reasonable objections that have been raised on this thread in terms of using the census figure as a fair and reasonable measure of Christianity in Ireland.

2. According to the Cultural Dictionary: Christmas definition: "A festival commemorating the birth of Jesus, traditionally celebrated on December 25 by most Western Christian churches. Although dating to probably as early as a.d. 200, the feast of Christmas did not become widespread until the Middle Ages. Today, Christmas is largely secularized and dominated by gifts, decorated trees, and a jolly Santa Claus."... so I think your assertion that every dictionary will tell it the way you want it, that is not the truth.

So. Since both of your "facts" aren't correct, and you have been until now unwilling to answer points that you don't want to acknowledge because they don't suit your worldview, that's honestly it for me and a discussion with you. No point trying to engage in a dialogue with someone who just wants to 'win' a 'debate'. I'm on this forum because I'd hope we get to a place of understanding each other better, but that doesn't seem to be happening here, and that's a shame.

Brown Bomber

lazygal wrote: »

Ireland's officially 84% catholic according to the census.


I know of many people who don't follow any catholic teachings yet tick the catholic box, my father included.

I mispoke. 90% Christian is what I should have said.

lazygal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I mispoke. 90% Christian is what I should have said.

We all make mistakes. Even my father.

Days 298

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I mispoke. 90% Christian is what I should have said.

But is the is the state Christian in the same way Saudi Arabia is Islamic? Does the government represent the 100% or the 90% (We all know thats not right and "cultural Catholics" exist in droves). The president clearly disagrees that we are.

Mark Hamill

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK then Mark, you tell me the true meaning of the word then. If someone self-identifies as Catholic at the same time supports gay marriage are they Catholic or not?

What if they were to commit one of the gravest sins like denying Christ?...Like St Paul...Who became Pope...

A catholic is someone who follows all the dogma of the catholic church. If you don't follow it then you can't be catholic (simple contradiction). If you didn't at some time in the past follow it, but change your mind and now do, then you weren't catholic but now are. This is childishly simple.

Turtwig

Ireland officially has a minority of people with disabilities. Yet we do not say Ireland is an able bodied person's country. Even if Ireland has 99% percent of its adherent with black skin you don't say the country is black. For countries like Ireland, secular republics, the state has no religious allegiance. So it makes no difference if the percentage of people who are Catholic varies from .001% to 99.998%. Ireland is never a Catholic country nor would it be Muslim, Pagan, Atheist, because the State itself does not endow any religion*.

*Inventing an Atheist religion.

Christmas is a Christian festival until you add in the lights, trees, present giving. It's multicultural now and very different from a celebration solely of Jesus. Equating the Christmas celebrated today as being the property of Christianity is very disingenuous. It's like claiming that soccer is an english sport. Even though a vast proportion of the world play it. Christmas has its roots in many things and it's not correct to say what we colloquially refer to as Christmas today is Christian. Even most devout Christians would agree to this.

Days 298

Can an atheist be a Catholic if he so wishes without believing any doctrines. Or is it a test? Just have to believe 40% of it to pass as a Catholic

Turtwig

Days 298 wrote: »

Can an atheist be a Catholic if he so wishes without believing any doctrines. Or is it a test? Just have to believe 40% of it to pass as a Catholic

There is a denomination of Christianity known as Christian Atheism. So, I'd imagine there's probably some offshoot for Catholicism there somewhere. Christianity has so many denominations! Some of them very wacky indeed!

Brown Bomber

AerynSun wrote: »

1. WRONG! According to Census 2011, Ireland is officially 84% Catholic. So now you're even changing your own argument, where previously you were trying to shore up your 90% by using the term 'Christian' rather than 'Catholic' in a bid to keep your 90% looking healthy. You've just blown your credibility out of the water.

It appears to me you are feeding off scraps. As I said I mispoke. Ireland is officially 90% Christian.

AerynSun wrote: »

And aside from that you STILL have not answered the many reasonable objections that have been raised on this thread in terms of using the census figure as a fair and reasonable measure of Christianity in Ireland.

As I've requested previously, List the objections one-by-one. Support them with scientific evidence. Tell me specifically what effect they would have on the census and we shall see if your claims stand up to scrutiny. I don't expect they will.

We have already had one that has failed. Koth brough up the "contradiction" of a Catholic supporting gay marriage. Ultimately he conceded that you can be both Catholic and support gay marriage and therefore this doesn't undermine the census figures.

AerynSun wrote: »

2. According to the Cultural Dictionary: Christmas definition: "A festival commemorating the birth of Jesus, traditionally celebrated on December 25 by most Western Christian churches. Although dating to probably as early as a.d. 200, the feast of Christmas did not become widespread until the Middle Ages. Today, Christmas is largely secularized and dominated by gifts, decorated trees, and a jolly Santa Claus."... so I think your assertion that every dictionary will tell it the way you want it, that is not the truth.

So. Since both of your "facts" aren't correct, and you have been until now unwilling to answer points that you don't want to acknowledge because they don't suit your worldview, that's honestly it for me and a discussion with you. No point trying to engage in a dialogue with someone who just wants to 'win' a 'debate'. I'm on this forum because I'd hope we get to a place of understanding each other better, but that doesn't seem to be happening here, and that's a shame.

Not sure what the cultural dictionary is but I would have assumed that you understood my use of "dictionary" to mean actual, reputable dictionaries. I will now quote the lead sentence in that definition:

"A festival commemorating the birth of Jesus"

AerynSun

Mark Hamill wrote: »

A catholic is someone who follows all the dogma of the catholic church. If you don't follow it then you can't be catholic (simple contradiction). If you didn't at some time in the past follow it, but change your mind and now do, then you weren't catholic but now are. This is childishly simple.

I made a point some way back on this thread, that following all of the dogma involves following the teaching of primacy of conscience - which can well mean that a Catholic follows their conscience on 'disobeying' some of the doctrine, and is still validly a Catholic. You're making it 'childishly simple', when it is in fact a lot more complex than that. Your argument sounds like a non-Catholic trying to explain Catholicism: lacking a well-rounded grasp of the teachings and the issues that people have with those teachings.

Still - the measure that BB would prefer to use of who is Catholic (or Christian) is about who has written that down on the census. And in my view, using the census figure is a flawed measure. Trying to find some other measure of "Who is following all of the dogma"... well good luck to you trying to do reliable research into that!

Mark Hamill

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It has nothing to do with perspective. I mentioned the word "facts" in the post you quoted. Which of the following isn't a fact?

1. Ireland is officially 90% Catholic.

No, it is not. Officially, the census may tell us that ~84% of irish people self-identify as catholic, but given how the majority of said people don't go to weekly mass (one of the central requirements of catholics, according to the catechism of the RCC, see sections 2180 and 2181 here), this means that their self-identification is not accurate.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

2. Every dictionary will tell you that Christmas is a Christian festival which celebrates the birth of Jesus.

To christians, you mean. To most everyone else in western countries, it is a time of the year that people have enjoyed getting together in a merry atmosphere, celebrating and gift giving, long before christianity was a backward little cult in the eyes of first century Jews. It is a social holiday, with religious associations only for those who recognise them. It is no different that Halloween.

AerynSun

Brown Bomber wrote: »

As I've requested previously, List the objections one-by-one.

And as I said to you yesterday: you need to go back through the thread and do your own work, because I don't have the energy to keep explaining things to you when you are obviously not listening. It almost seems like it's more fun for you to play power games than to engage in genuine dialogue? Else why haven't you gone back through the thread yet and made that list?

Not sure what the cultural dictionary is but I would have assumed that you understood my use of "dictionary" to mean actual, reputable dictionaries. I will now quote the lead sentence in that definition: "A festival commemorating the birth of Jesus"

And all you've done there is prove that you aren't all-knowing, yet you choose to focus on the bits of information that suit you and trash the bits that don't. Zero dialogue happening here.

Good luck with your efforts at dialogue with other members of the forum.

Mark Hamill

AerynSun wrote: »

I made a point some way back on this thread, that following all of the dogma involves following the teaching of primacy of conscience - which can well mean that a Catholic follows their conscience on 'disobeying' some of the doctrine, and is still validly a Catholic. You're making it 'childishly simple', when it is in fact a lot more complex than that.

"Primacy of conscience" is nonsense, nowhere in the biblical teachings is it to be seen, the 10 commandments start with "Thou Shall..." but they don't end with "if you feel like it". The explanation and criteria for primacy of conscience gives this away:

None the less it is important to understand the difference between conscience and personal preference or arbitrary private intuition (cf. Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §30, on "wallowing in the luxury of a merely individualistic morality").Conscience is the inner core of human beings whereby, compelled to seek the truth, they recognise the objective standards of moral conduct, indeed the dictates of God's law, and make a practical judgment of what is to be done here and now in applying those standards (Rom 2:15-16; Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §§2,3; The Church in the Modern World (1965), §16). Thus the moral character of actions is determined by objective criteria, not merely by the sincerity of intentions or the goodness of motives, (Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §51) and all people are called to form their consciences accordingly.

Deep within their conscience human persons discover a law which they have not laid upon themselves but which they must obey. Its voice, ever calling them to love and to do what is good and avoid evil, tells them inwardly at the right moment: do this, shun that. For human persons have in their hearts a law inscribed by God... the more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by the objective standards of moral conduct. Yet it often happens that conscience goes astray through ignorance which it is unable to avoid, without thereby losing its dignity. This cannot be said of the person who takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.
- Second Vatican Council, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §§27

How then do we form a right conscience? Catholics seek to inform their consciences according to reason and revelation as guided by Church teachings. They believe that by "their faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority
(magisterium), and obeying it, receives not the mere word of human beings, but truly the word of God." (Vatican II, The Church (1964), §12). It is to the pope and the bishops that this teaching authority is entrusted. As the Second Vatican Council put it: "in matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful, for their part, are obliged to accept their
bishops' teaching with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind" (The Church (1964), §25). Thus for a Catholic to disagree with what the Church teaches on abortion, he or she would need to have very clear reasons and convictions. These could only follow a genuine search for meaning through docility to church teaching, reading, prayer, taking counsel, developing the virtue of prudence, and so on. Any conflict would then be within the person's conscience, rather than between conscience and some alien magisterial authority.

"Primacy of conscience" is based on the belief that god is driving that conscience and only recognised as valid if the person dissenting has, in totality, given themselves up to church teaching to make sure they disagree for the right reasons. And even then, its described as an internal disagreement, rather than a disagreement with the church. It's a weasel term to fool people into thinking they still get a say, but with the rules set up so that if someone disagrees, you can just say they haven't studied church teaching enough. Which is exactly what you have done here:

AerynSun wrote: »

Your argument sounds like a non-Catholic trying to explain Catholicism: lacking a well-rounded grasp of the teachings and the issues that people have with those teachings.

AerynSun wrote: »

Still - the measure that BB would prefer to use of who is Catholic (or Christian) is about who has written that down on the census. And in my view, using the census figure is a flawed measure. Trying to find some other measure of "Who is following all of the dogma"... well good luck to you trying to do reliable research into that!

At what point of disagreeing does someone stop being a catholic? At what point does the word lose all meaning?

Brown Bomber

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No, it is not. Officially, the census may tell us that ~84% of irish people self-identify as catholic, but given how the majority of said people don't go to weekly mass (one of the central requirements of catholics, according to the catechism of the RCC, see sections 2180 and 2181 here), this means that their self-identification is not accurate.

What you are doing here is wrongly conflating belief with ritual.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

To christians, you mean. To most everyone else in western countries, it is a time of the year that people have enjoyed getting together in a merry atmosphere, celebrating and gift giving, long before christianity was a backward little cult in the eyes of first century Jews. It is a social holiday, with religious associations only for those who recognise them. It is no different that Halloween.

I'm not aware of any Christian dictionaries. List the 3 most reputable dictionaries in your view and we'll see how they define Christmas...

Brown Bomber

AerynSun wrote: »

And as I said to you yesterday: you need to go back through the thread and do your own work, because I don't have the energy to keep explaining things to you when you are obviously not listening. It almost seems like it's more fun for you to play power games than to engage in genuine dialogue? Else why haven't you gone back through the thread yet and made that list?



And all you've done there is prove that you aren't all-knowing, yet you choose to focus on the bits of information that suit you and trash the bits that don't. Zero dialogue happening here.

Good luck with your efforts at dialogue with other members of the forum.

Fair enough. Give your best piece of scientific evidence which conclusively makes a sizable dent in the overwhelming Christian majority as recorded in the census which makes the census wrong.

Mark Hamill

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What you are doing here is wrongly conflating belief with ritual.

The belief includes believing that you have to do the ritual, so they are one in the same.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not aware of any Christian dictionaries. List the 3 most reputable dictionaries in your view and we'll see how they define Christmas...

Why, when dictionaries have nothing to do with my point?
Of course, if you want to be a smart arse and pretend that all that matter is dictionary definitions, then you can look at merriam webster:

Christian festival celebrated on December 25, commemorating the birth of Jesus. December 25 had already been identified by Sextus Julius Africanus in AD 221 as the day on which Christmas would be celebrated, and it was celebrated in Rome by AD 336. During the Middle Ages Christmas became extremely popular, and various liturgical celebrations of the holiday were established. The practice of exchanging gifts had begun by the 15th century. The Yule log, cakes, and fir trees derive from German and Celtic customs. Christmas today is regarded as a family festival with gifts brought by Santa Claus (see St. Nicholas). As an increasingly secular festival, it has come to be celebrated by many non-Christians.

thefreedictionary.com:

Christmas (ˈkrɪsməs)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. the annual commemoration by Christians of the birth of Jesus Christ on Dec 25
b. Also called: Christmas Day Dec 25, observed as a day of secular celebrations when gifts and greetings are exchanged

or wikipedia:

Christmas (Old English: Crīstesmæsse, meaning "Christ's Mass") is an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ[6][7] and a widely observed cultural holiday, celebrated generally on December 25[3][4][5] by millions of people around the world