Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

expectationlost

repeating myself but think brown bomber has the stats on his side, the stat collated by the state that won't remove god from the constitution or state services, if not the reality of the situation can only be fixed by getting answers from or about the cso.

smacl

IRLConor wrote: »

Surely there's a limit to that somewhere?

Could I, for example, deny the existence of god and yet pull out the "supremacy of conscience" card and claim that I'm still a member in good standing of the RCC? How does that interact with Can 1364?

Apparently.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What if they were to commit one of the gravest sins like denying Christ?...Like St Paul...Who became Pope...

Interesting piece of Canon law though, insofar as if anyone who denies Christ is automatically excommunicated, this means denying Christ is a simple and effective way to leave the Catholic church. Pity the question 'Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ?' isn't on the census so, as it might give a better idea of how many self affirmed Catholics there actually are in the country.

At least it's somewhat better than the treatment of apostasy in some Islamic states, which include imprisonment, public flogging and the death penalty. I'd be interested in what other 'just penalties' the RCC would like to see applied, though. Once again, a good argument for secularism.

Corkfeen

BB, there's no evidence he did it to 'appease' anyone, McAleese didn't mention Christianity in her speeches either so perhaps they simply want to be as inclusive as possible? I wouldn't have cared if he had mentioned Christianity in the speech, doubt many would. People from this forum were primarily pointing out the absurd reaction to him not doing so.

As president he chose to address the nation, not just Christians. He is entitled to do this.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I agree it is a a contradiction, but not to the point where one loses the right to self-identify as Catholic anymore than a Muslim having a glass of wine with a meal stops being Muslim.

Aren't you just falling victim to the no true Scotsman fallacy?

No, as I'm not saying they're not Catholic.

The census is frequently used by the clergy/Catholic groups (like Iona Institute) that refer to Ireland as being majority Catholic as this means the majority are anti-marriage equality. If Roman Catholic can be "everything to everyone" what purpose does it serve to ask religious affliation in the census?

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is what Obama said:


It acknowledges the Christian nature of Christmas and at the same time is inclusive. Why couldn't Higgins do that?

Why would he have to? Why would he have to specifically mention that it's a holiday which largely stems from Christianity?

His speech in full:

“May I offer my warmest wishes for Christmas and the New Year to everyone in Ireland, in a special way to our emigrants abroad, and to the members of the extended Irish family wherever they may be.

Christmas is a season of homecoming. It is a time when we rekindle those embers of friendship and kinship that bring meaning, warmth and joy to our lives – lives lived within communities.

As so many of us at this time come together in fellowship, we should be mindful of those who are in distress, alone, or separated from a loved one.

May I, as Uachtarain na hÉireann, thank each and every one of you who are caring for our communities throughout the holiday season and indeed during the rest of the year – including An Garda Síochána, the Prison Service, all of the staff in our hospitals and emergency services, and members of the Defence Forces who are building or supporting peace abroad.

In this year of the Gathering, we extended a warm welcome to the Irish Diaspora.

Christmas, however, reminds us that true hospitality endures and reaches beyond kin and one’s own community; it extends to the stranger, the newcomer, the outsider.

Christmas is a time to reflect on what binds us together, as members of the same family, as neighbours, as fellow-citizens and as human beings.

The message of Christmas, shared by many faiths, invites us to care for one another and to be – in an ethical sense – one another’s keeper.

Faoi scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine, our own ancient language tells
us.

At my inauguration two years ago I expressed my wish to engage with a number of themes that affect the welfare and future of our people.

I am pleased that the first of these initiatives, ‘Being Young and Irish’, has borne fruit. Ireland has young people of great ability who deserve to have confidence in their future and pride in their country.

During 2014 I will be encouraging the widest possible discussion of ethics in every aspect of our lives, nationally and globally.

This will, I hope, make a contribution towards moving beyond a version of our society and economy that has brought so much hardship, required so much sacrifice.

As a New Year beckons, I am confident that Irish people will draw on the character and resilience they have so often shown to craft a vision of our shared Irishness that is defined by the values of care, solidarity, trust and responsibility.

In the year ahead, I will continue to dedicate my abilities to the service of the Irish people at home and abroad, and I greatly look forward to the State Visit to our nearest neighbours and friends in the United Kingdom in April.

May the joys of giving and receiving extend well beyond these precious few days spent in the company of those we love.

Sabina and I wish you all a very happy Christmas.”

Why do you think there was any need whatsoever to mention Jesus or Christianity? Yes, Christmas was largely derived from other pagan festivals but over time became more of a Christian celebration. This in turn over time is becoming more of a social celebration rather than simply a Christian one. Why do atheists celebrate Christmas? Because it's no longer a religious celebration, it's a social and cultural celebration (as evident by the fact that the vast majority of standard Christmas traditions have nothing to do with Christianity).

So, why should Michael D. have mentioned Christianity? I wouldn't have cared if he did. But also, I can't see why anyone should care that he didn't. He didn't disparage the faith or even say himself that it's no longer simply a religious event, he simply focused on more important things in his message. His message was very inclusive of all (as it should be) as per the parts I bolded.

So I ask again, why should he have to mention Christianity?

Corkfeen

Bloody disgraceful,pandering clearly!

AerynSun

IRLConor wrote: »

Surely there's a limit to that somewhere?

Could I, for example, deny the existence of god and yet pull out the "supremacy of conscience" card and claim that I'm still a member in good standing of the RCC? How does that interact with Can 1364?

If you denied the existence of god, why on not-god's green earth would you want to claim you're a member of the RCC? There should be some kind of question on the census that will flag people who potentially need access to mental health services :pac:

Delirium

AerynSun wrote: »

If you denied the existence of god, why on not-god's green earth would you want to claim you're a member of the RCC? There should be some kind of question on the census that will flag people who potentially need access to mental health services :pac:

My dad did exactly that. Irish=RCC in his head.

AerynSun

koth wrote: »

No, as I'm not saying they're not Catholic.

The census is frequently used by the clergy/Catholic groups (like Iona Institute) that refer to Ireland as being majority Catholic as this means the majority are anti-marriage equality. If Roman Catholic can be "everything to everyone" what purpose does it serve to ask religious affliation in the census?

Roman Catholic can be nearly everything to everyone who knows the rule books well enough and what it means is that NOT all Catholics are anti-marriage equality - so people like the Iona Institute and other organisations who misrepresent their case by using the census data in that way, should rather be made to cop themselves on and stop doing that.

And secularists would do well to stop treating the RCC as one huge, homogenous thing, and start engaging more on the issues with individuals who self-identify as Catholic.

When I was a Catholic, there was nothing I hated more than someone telling me "but all of you Catholics believe x, therefore your position is y" - quickest way to get my back up, and not the best opener if you want me to engage in a serious dialogue about a controversial issue.

IRLConor

AerynSun wrote: »

If you denied the existence of god, why on not-god's green earth would you want to claim you're a member of the RCC?

"cultural Catholic" :rolleyes:

AerynSun wrote: »

There should be some kind of question on the census that will flag people who potentially need access to mental health services :pac:

I don't think anyone would want to find out the proportion of the population that potentially needs access to mental health services!

tdv123

Hardly surprising people up North want to run a hundred miles away from us when they read bollox like this.

AerynSun

tdv123 wrote: »

Hardly surprising people up North want to run a hundred miles away from us when they read bollox like this.

Exactly which bit of 'this' is bollox?

And as far as I know, the people up North have the same struggles over religious nomenclature being applied to broader cultural identities?

ABC101

Obviously Christmas means different things to different people / organizations.

For some it is a opportunity to increase sales, for others to spend, others to increase alcohol, others to abstain and so on and on and on.

If a person does not wish to celebrate Christmas then they have that free choice.

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

As a christian, I try not to get caught up in the commercial side, I try to give to my friends and family and I try to help out in the home with dinner preparations and so on. I also set up a crib and I put aside some time to do some thinking about Jesus, how I have lived spiritually over the last 12 months, and how I can live better over the next 12.

But I think it is strange... how some people want to have/enjoy Christmas... but leave out the "Christ" part of it.

Reminds me of the saying..."There's a war on... but don't mention the war".

I mean who are we fooling here?

old hippy

ABC101 wrote: »

Obviously Christmas means different things to different people / organizations.

For some it is a opportunity to increase sales, for others to spend, others to increase alcohol, others to abstain and so on and on and on.

If a person does not wish to celebrate Christmas then they have that free choice.

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

As a christian, I try not to get caught up in the commercial side, I try to give to my friends and family and I try to help out in the home with dinner preparations and so on. I also set up a crib and I put aside some time to do some thinking about Jesus, how I have lived spiritually over the last 12 months, and how I can live better over the next 12.

But I think it is strange... how some people want to have/enjoy Christmas... but leave out the "Christ" part of it.

Reminds me of the saying..."There's a war on... but don't mention the war".

I mean who are we fooling here?

Everyone's entitled to a holiday. Let's not forget that the season was a pagan celebration before Christians appropriated it.

Canis Lupus

ABC101 wrote: »

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

I has more to do with paganism that christianity stole in order to make itself more popular... So next time December rolls around spare a thought for Saturnalia and wonder to yourself if in a couple more thousand years will some scientologist be saying on a future message board that December 25th also known as Xenumass is an annual commemoration of Xenu, nothing more, nothing less.

ABC101

ABC101 wrote: »

Obviously Christmas means different things to different people / organizations.

For some it is a opportunity to increase sales, for others to spend, others to increase alcohol, others to abstain and so on and on and on.

If a person does not wish to celebrate Christmas then they have that free choice.

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

As a christian, I try not to get caught up in the commercial side, I try to give to my friends and family and I try to help out in the home with dinner preparations and so on. I also set up a crib and I put aside some time to do some thinking about Jesus, how I have lived spiritually over the last 12 months, and how I can live better over the next 12.

But I think it is strange... how some people want to have/enjoy Christmas... but leave out the "Christ" part of it.

Reminds me of the saying..."There's a war on... but don't mention the war".

I mean who are we fooling here?

This is just rambling nonsense and wandering deliberately off topic!

ABC101

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I has more to do with paganism that christianity stole in order to make itself more popular... So next time December rolls around spare a thought for Saturnalia and wonder to yourself if in a couple more thousand years will some scientologist be saying on a future message board that December 25th also known as Xenumass is an annual commemoration of Xenu, nothing more, nothing less.

Eh... no... the birth of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with theft.

ABC101

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This is just rambling nonsense and wandering deliberately off topic!

I say Robbie.. that's not a very nice thing to write... you mean to say Christmas is not about the birth of Jesus... is that what you mean?

Penn

ABC101 wrote: »

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

Okay, so would you suggest removing all the traditions which have nothing to do with Jesus' birth? Remove Christmas trees, decorations, Santa, Christmas dinner... everything except for going to Mass and getting a day off work.

As I said, Christmas comes off the back of winter pagan festivals (as no-one knows when Jesus (assuming Jesus was real) was actually born). Then it was about Jesus' birth. But since then, it has socially and culturally become about more than just the birth of Jesus. Same way Easter (the death of Jesus) is now socially and culturally filled with Easter Eggs and the Easter Bunny.

Christmas is far more than the birth of Christ. If you asked most people to name someone associated with Christmas, more people would say Santa Claus than Jesus.

Canis Lupus

ABC101 wrote: »

Eh... no... the birth of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with theft.

Feel free to take a moment to show me where in the bible it states Jesus was born on 25th December. I have all of 30 minutes before I potter off to my bed.

old hippy

ABC101 wrote: »

I say Robbie.. that's not a very nice thing to write... you mean to say Christmas is not about the birth of Jesus... is that what you mean?

Jesus was not actually born in December, so the period you Christians call "Christmas" is a bit of a misnomer, really.

ABC101

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Okay, so would you suggest removing all the traditions which have nothing to do with Jesus' birth? Remove Christmas trees, decorations, Santa, Christmas dinner... everything except for going to Mass and getting a day off work.

As I said, Christmas comes off the back of winter pagan festivals (as no-one knows when Jesus (assuming Jesus was real) was actually born). Then it was about Jesus' birth. But since then, it has socially and culturally become about more than just the birth of Jesus. Same way Easter (the death of Jesus) is now socially and culturally filled with Easter Eggs and the Easter Bunny.

Christmas is far more than the birth of Christ. If you asked most people to name someone associated with Christmas, more people would say Santa Claus than Jesus.

I did not suggest anything of the sort... where did I suggest the removal of Christmas trees or Santa? What makes you think that is my intention?

In my opinion Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, on what date Jesus was born exactly... I don't know... but I am happy that one of the days was decided upon, and it is the same day every year.

The fact that Christmas has become commercialized or that other items have been introduced i.e. trees, snow, santa, Rudolph etc still does not take from what Christmas is actually a celebration of.

If people want to put their faith / hope / belief/ or reason to celebrate in chocolate, rabbits, trees or the alignment of the planets etc, that is their choice.

ABC101

old hippy wrote: »

Jesus was not actually born in December, so the period you Christians call "Christmas" is a bit of a misnomer, really.

Christmas is old English... meaning Christ's Mass...

AerynSun

ABC101 wrote: »

Eh... no... the birth of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with theft.

ABC101 wrote: »

you mean to say Christmas is not about the birth of Jesus... is that what you mean?

ABC101 wrote: »

In my opinion Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, on what date Jesus was born exactly... I don't know...

The fact that Christmas has become commercialized or that other items have been introduced i.e. trees, snow, santa, Rudolph etc still does not take from what Christmas is actually a celebration of.

ABC101 wrote: »

Christmas is old English... meaning Christ's Mass...

Please read the first 10 pages of the thread - we've covered this. Posts #139 and #142.

The northern hemisphere winter festival in December wasn't always Christmas, it was a Roman festival long before the Christian church decided to chose that date as "Jesus' birthday", in a bid to stamp out 'pagan practices' that the church deemed irreconcilable with Christian ideals.

ABC101

AerynSun wrote: »

Please read the first 10 pages of the thread - we've covered this. Posts #139 and #142.

The northern hemisphere winter festival in December wasn't always Christmas, it was a Roman festival long before the Christian church decided to chose that date as "Jesus' birthday", in a bid to stamp out 'pagan practices' that the church deemed irreconcilable with Christian ideals.

That's one way of looking at it.... but I would not be so certain that it was a bid to stamp out "pagan practices".

From what we know of Newgrange, Stonehedge etc, these "pagan practices" which you mention, where most probably celebrated on the 21st of December. Christmas is celebrated on the 25th Dec.

If people wish to celebrate some form of spirituality on the 21st, then that is their choice.

Penn

ABC101 wrote: »

I did not suggest anything of the sort... where did I suggest the removal of Christmas trees or Santa? What makes you think that is my intention?

In my opinion Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, on what date Jesus was born exactly... I don't know... but I am happy that one of the days was decided upon, and it is the same day every year.

The fact that Christmas has become commercialized or that other items have been introduced i.e. trees, snow, santa, Rudolph etc still does not take from what Christmas is actually a celebration of.

If people want to put their faith / hope / belief/ or reason to celebrate in chocolate, rabbits, trees or the alignment of the planets etc, that is their choice.

I didn't say you suggested it, I asked if you would suggest it, seeing as how those things have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus.

The only aspects of Christmas which relate to Jesus are the masses, advent calendars and nativity scene decorations. Everything else has nothing to do with Jesus, so to claim that Christmas is about the birth of Jesus, nothing more nothing less, is completely wrong.

Brian Shanahan

COYW wrote: »

As others have correctly pointed out, the census provides us with the answer to this question. It showed that well over 90% of the population is Christian.

No it didn't. It just showed over 90% of the respondents to the census* ticked a box.

To truly show that 90% of the country is christian, you'd have to go a lot deeper than the superficial (and highly biased*) measure in the census.

* A lot of the box ticking will be mammies filling out for their uni student or working children who come home the odd weekend but still use home as a postal address. A lot of those people when asked will either be cultural catholics (i.e. they don't believe, but it's "part of their heritage") or out and out non-believers. More in-depth, and better done, statistical surveys show Irish atheism at about 10%. Given the of non christian believers and agnostics (who aren't necessarily atheist) that 90% figure in the census is 100% wrong.

AerynSun

ABC101 wrote: »

I think it is strange... how some people want to have/enjoy Christmas... but leave out the "Christ" part of it.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that as a Christian you are so immersed in what the festival means to you, that you find it difficult to understand what the festival means to people who aren't Christian?

Acknowledging a lack of understanding, is the first step to developing empathy and gaining insight into a complex reality.

Maybe it would help the discussion here, if you were to respectfully ask people who aren't Christian about how they celebrate the festival, and what it means to them, and how they feel about their traditions also being acknowledged by the President in his address?

Brian Shanahan

ABC101 wrote: »

But Christmas is what it is... an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

According to the fable (this link will show you some things your priest/minister [or whatever title you use in your denomination] will never tell you about the genesis of the bible) of the birth of the baby Jebus, there is no possible way he could have been born in mid-December. The church co-opted the earlier mid-winter pagan festival of rebirth, in an unsuccessful attempt at conversion (they later had to kill quite a lot of pagans pour encourager les autres).

But I think it is strange... how some people want to have/enjoy Christmas... but leave out the "Christ" part of it.

I think it strange how so many christians leave out the human sacrifice element of christmas, while venerating so many of the other original pagan elements (like worshipping the tree, paying homage to a fat man who brings presents, having it on around the winter solstice the time of the rebirth of the sun).

smacl

ABC101 wrote: »

If people wish to celebrate some form of spirituality on the 21st, then that is their choice.

Similarly, if some people want to celebrate some form of spirituality on the 25th, then that is also their choice. Very many however seem to spend the day eating too much, drinking too much, and playing charades with the extended family into the early hours of the morning. Now whether that is more typical of a pagan way to celebrate surviving one more year, or a Christian tradition reflecting the birth of their saviour, I'll leave to you.