BASF Walltite Insulation

shane0007 · 10-11-2013 08:02PM #1

Any of ye guys know anything about BASF Walltite Insulation. It's pumped into the cavity as a liquid, expands to fill every nook & cranny. Where the existing polystyrene insulation has come away from the wall, it rams it back & fills everything.
A customer of mine had it done during the summer & notices a big difference in the lack of draughts in his house & notices how the house doesn't cool down easily.
When it as pumped in, he saw little shots of it around windows, vents, basically everywhere the blocklayers didn't do a great job with detail.

So my question is has anyone or know of anyone else who had it done & how much did it cost?
There are only about 10 installers certified by BASF to install it & I had one of them round last week.
He priced it at €24 per m2 plus vat so it's coming in at €6,000. He priced bonded beads at €2,100.

My take is you can only fill the cavity once & if this system is the system of the norm for the future, I would rather spend on this one.

Outkast_IRE · 10-11-2013 08:08PM

I don't think that product has NSAI certification yet does it ?

A big worry would be if it doesn't have certification and anything happens you insurance company may wash their hands of you or similar.

shane0007 · 10-11-2013 08:17PM

It is Agrement Certified
http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/50/5002PS1i1.pdf

MicktheMan · 10-11-2013 08:45PM

shane0007 wrote: »

My take is you can only fill the cavity once

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

Outkast_IRE · 10-11-2013 08:53PM

MicktheMan wrote: »

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

I have to agree, in terms of insulating your home, filling you cavity walls with a product cannot be undone easily, any product you put in there would want to be proven over long periods of time.

shane0007 · 10-11-2013 09:51PM

MicktheMan wrote: »

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

1. It is guaranteed for to last the lifetime of the building (see section 12 of the Agrement certificate). Could it have been the plastic that moved due to heat/cold contractions. I would have also thought that spray foam from a can would be very different quality to Agrement certified product like this.

2. Walltite is a closed cell polyiso (as opposed to open cell) so it is waterproof, stopping any transfer of moisture from the outer skin to the inner skin.

MicktheMan · 10-11-2013 10:09PM

shane0007 wrote: »

1. It is guaranteed for to last the lifetime of the building (see section 12 of the Agrement certificate). Could it have been the plastic that moved due to heat/cold contractions. I would have also thought that spray foam from a can would be very different quality to Agrement certified product like this.

2. Walltite is a closed cell polyiso (as opposed to open cell) so it is waterproof, stopping any transfer of moisture from the outer skin to the inner skin.

1. Maybe, but there will also be seasonal differential movement between the concrete / foam.
2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong. It is not unknown for such product certification to be withdrawn when issues arise.

shane0007 · 10-11-2013 10:17PM

MicktheMan wrote: »

1. Maybe, but there will also be seasonal differential movement between the concrete / foam.
2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong. It is not unknown for such product certification to be withdrawn when issues arise.

It has been used across Europe for donkey's years. German made. It's also similar to the same closed cell insulation used in sandwich preformed steel clad roofing and that has been used for as long as I can remember. The main difference is the fluid form application for cavity calls.
That is how my client got his home done as he is a director of a major global steel & roof cladding company. BASF supply the insulation to his company & whilst in Germany, the engineers introduced this particular product to him.

shane0007 · 10-11-2013 10:20PM

MicktheMan wrote: »

2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong.

I have been a guinea pig already. They used poxy 50mm white polystyrene insulation in my cavity that is crap, comes loose from the wall & is not easily rectified.

Constanople · 02-01-2014 01:58PM

Any further update on this shane0007

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 02:11PM

Constanople wrote: »

Any further update on this shane0007

Only that I am definitely going ahead with it. Found it very difficult to deal with one the approved contractors so after a lot of toing & froing, the head office got another approved contractor for me. I have to just arrange a date for the install in the coming weeks.

Constanople · 02-01-2014 02:14PM

Can you PM me the name of the company you are going to deal with.

Thanks

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 02:19PM

Constanople wrote: »

Can you PM me the name of the company you are going to deal with.

Thanks

You are best ringing their head office as each contractor is allocated an area & they don't like to cross areas. My local contractor made 7 appointments with & broke everyone of them without even a phone call. I got so p1ssed off, I rang the head office to complain. The local guy rang me that day, made another appointment & then never turned up again.
Eventually, they sent out another contractor from another area who was sound so I am giving the job to him.

Constanople · 02-01-2014 02:25PM

Ok Thanks. One last Question

What part of the Country are you in?

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 02:31PM

Constanople wrote: »

Ok Thanks. One last Question

What part of the Country are you in?

Why do you want to know?

john_eire · 02-01-2014 08:01PM

Can u keep us updated on how things go shane,
if u don't mind saying what size is the house?
what type is the house 1.5 or 2 story or bungalow
Are u getting the attic done as well ?

I'm interested in doing the walls and attic with my own house 1.5 story and u only get one chance,

Did u try any other company's that do spray foam for cavity walls?

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 08:16PM

john_eire wrote: »

Can u keep us updated on how things go shane,
if u don't mind saying what size is the house?
what type is the house 1.5 or 2 story or bungalow
Are u getting the attic done as well ?

I'm interested in doing the walls and attic with my own house 1.5 story and u only get one chance,

Did u try any other company's that do spray foam for cavity walls?

I sure will.
My house is a detached 3,000sqft 2 storey built in 2003.
I only had 4" fibre glass insulation in the attic & about 2 years ago, I added another 2 layers of 6" insulation giving a total layer of 16".
This made a big improvement.

I won't be going for the SEAI grant but I will most likely claim the Home Renovation Incentive (HRI) Scheme from Revenue, as the amount will be above the criteria of €4,400 + vodka & tonic.

I did look at other companies who do similar but all others only offer an open cell product. The BASF is closed cell so it does air tightness also.
I have UFH on both floors & I feel a lot is lost through the walls so I am hoping for a noticeable improvement.

esox28 · 02-01-2014 09:16PM

Shane have you or the icontractor checked the cavity closers at wall plate level and gables, that product leaks out of your cavity space into open area it will fail in that area to form the required density required to develop the stated u-value.

also make sure your plinth is pumped cavity starts at foundation.

corkgsxr · 02-01-2014 09:18PM

Would you consider the outside wrapping. I was hugely against it until I was replumbing a old cottage that was in the process of getting done and I now think its really good the house feels hugely warmer that outside even without the heating.

Nd months later a friend got it done to a 3 bed semi and they are very happy with it

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 09:31PM

esox28 wrote: »

Shane have you or the icontractor checked the cavity closers at wall plate level and gables, that product leaks out of your cavity space into open area it will fail in that area to form the required density required to develop the stated u-value.

also make sure your plinth is pumped cavity starts at foundation.

Yes that was all discussed at length. The product goes in as a liquid & then expands. It's very important in my case to ensure it goes down to the foundation, for UFH benefits.
The drill holes are only 12mm but spacing are VERY close, 600mm horizontally & 450mm vertically & each row staggered. A lot closer & a lot more than beads.
I also received the installer installation manual from them.

shane0007 · 02-01-2014 09:35PM

corkgsxr wrote: »

Would you consider the outside wrapping. I was hugely against it until I was replumbing a old cottage that was in the process of getting done and I now think its really good the house feels hugely warmer that outside even without the heating.

Nd months later a friend got it done to a 3 bed semi and they are very happy with it

Absolutely no. For a house my size & detached the cost would be astronomical. I worked on a house that was about 1,800sqft & they paid €25,000 for external.
I also worked on another house where the one next door was done. The builder working on our one bashed about 10 holes in their wall with significant damage. I just don't think it's durable & after all it's just polystyrene insulation with a finish coat.

Plus the fact where I come from, there are many sliothars stuck in gable end walls across the county!

Constanople · 03-01-2014 11:50AM

Was curious where you were from as i am wondering if i will have similiar issues with contractors if we are from similiar regions.

I have a a contractor coming to visit me tomorrow eve with regard to the BASF Waltite foam pumped into my cavity.

shane0007 · 03-01-2014 01:22PM

Constanople wrote: »

Was curious where you were from as i am wondering if i will have similiar issues with contractors if we are from similiar regions.

I have a a contractor coming to visit me tomorrow eve with regard to the BASF Waltite foam pumped into my cavity.

No bother. It's just I don't like knocking a contractor on a public forum. He most likely has a lot of happy customers & you never know what's going on in somebody's life to warrant giving poor service. That's why I have him many chances.

shane0007 · 27-02-2014 12:14AM

Guys just finished the 2 day install this evening.
I have to say Ecotherm Insulation are absolutely excellent. Very professional, explained every step of the process, left the place spotless & an all round excellent team of workers. They matched up the coloured nap finish perfectly.

Regarding the product, it came out of every nook & cranny, around windows, doors, below sills, both inside & out. It showed up where there was enormous leakage.
There was an initial problem where the product shot back out of other drill holes but the guys found that the existing wall insulation had come away from the wall. Wait a couple of seconds & it was rammed back in place & the process continued without a hitch.
They also drilled below the Radon barrier so that the cavity could be filled all the way down to the foundations.

I wasn't expecting a difference so soon, but the room temperatures are already reading 2C above what they are normally. I have stats in every room & they are all behaving similarly. There is definitely a hell of lot less draughts around the house.

Overall, where I did not want to hold too high expectations so soon, I am very impressed. Very expensive but if it continues like this, then very much worth it.

freddyuk · 27-02-2014 07:22AM

What was the existing insulation? Is it going to work if there is Jabblite sheets already dropped into cavities? I have a bungalow which has the polystyrene batts and all corner rooms are cold. Also there will be large gaps where we extended and chopped through various services. I can do external insulation as everything is at ground level but foam would be my first choice if it would deal with the existing rubbish insulation.
I know my extension with underfloor insulation is several degrees warmer than the older part so it would be a great benefit to do the walls too.
Got to prepare and paint all external walls anyway so drilling holes all over it is not a problem.
Thanks Shane

shane0007 · 27-02-2014 09:19AM

Existing cavity insulation was just 50mm white polystyrene insulation held against the inner block leaf with the wall ties.

My corner details were disgraceful as it showed up huge amounts of heat loss with my thermal image camera. There was also very poor detail at low level. Going above & below the radon barrier has also shown a marked improvement.

This morning, the room temperatures have increased a further 0.5C. The only time I have seen these room temperatures was during a hot summer's day when the sun was beating in the windows.

Dtp1979 · 27-02-2014 09:38AM

Shane do you know if that process can be used on timber framed houses in the outer leaf, between the block and plywood?

shane0007 · 27-02-2014 09:55AM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Shane do you know if that process can be used on timber framed houses in the outer leaf, between the block and plywood?

According to the installation manual it can. You would really need to check with themselves & let them do a site survey.

The main difference between this & normal spray foams is the expansion rate. The expansion rate for normal PIR I'm told is 100:1, so it will expand 100 times larger than its liquid form. Waltite only expands at a rate of 30:1. This is closed cell so air tight.
The other difference is normal PIR shrinks with time. Waltite doesn't. It remains exactly the same size. This would be very important within a cavity.

shane0007 · 27-02-2014 09:56AM

And...

dathi · 27-02-2014 02:18PM

would some of that temp rise not be caused by the foam as it cures

shane0007 · 27-02-2014 02:36PM

dathi wrote: »

would some of that temp rise not be caused by the foam as it cures

No as it only takes 9 seconds for it to cure. It would also take some curing heat to heat a solid block wall enough to raise the room temperature in a 3,000sqft house by 2.5C.

BASF Walltite Insulation

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