BASF Walltite Insulation

shane0007

Any of ye guys know anything about BASF Walltite Insulation. It's pumped into the cavity as a liquid, expands to fill every nook & cranny. Where the existing polystyrene insulation has come away from the wall, it rams it back & fills everything.
A customer of mine had it done during the summer & notices a big difference in the lack of draughts in his house & notices how the house doesn't cool down easily.
When it as pumped in, he saw little shots of it around windows, vents, basically everywhere the blocklayers didn't do a great job with detail.

So my question is has anyone or know of anyone else who had it done & how much did it cost?
There are only about 10 installers certified by BASF to install it & I had one of them round last week.
He priced it at €24 per m2 plus vat so it's coming in at €6,000. He priced bonded beads at €2,100.

My take is you can only fill the cavity once & if this system is the system of the norm for the future, I would rather spend on this one.

Outkast_IRE

I don't think that product has NSAI certification yet does it ?

A big worry would be if it doesn't have certification and anything happens you insurance company may wash their hands of you or similar.

shane0007

It is Agrement Certified
http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/50/5002PS1i1.pdf

MicktheMan

shane0007 wrote: »

My take is you can only fill the cavity once

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

Outkast_IRE

MicktheMan wrote: »

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

I have to agree, in terms of insulating your home, filling you cavity walls with a product cannot be undone easily, any product you put in there would want to be proven over long periods of time.

shane0007

MicktheMan wrote: »

This is an important point in the context of :
1. while the product may seal the cavity well on day one, how will it perform in 5, 10, 20 years time. I once filled a piece of 4" waving pipe with expandable foam and left it in the garage. When I checked it after 6 months, the foam had loosened to such an extent it fell out of the pipe. Will this product do the same i.e. shrink and become less effective over time?

2. The cavity wall was first developed to prevent moisture crossing the cavity to the inside by providing an air cavity. The outer leaf of brick/block work is expected to get wet. Will this product allow the moisture to cross the cavity from the wet outer leaf to the inner leaf? Personally, I wouldn't be taking that risk with my own house until it is well proven.

1. It is guaranteed for to last the lifetime of the building (see section 12 of the Agrement certificate). Could it have been the plastic that moved due to heat/cold contractions. I would have also thought that spray foam from a can would be very different quality to Agrement certified product like this.

2. Walltite is a closed cell polyiso (as opposed to open cell) so it is waterproof, stopping any transfer of moisture from the outer skin to the inner skin.

MicktheMan

shane0007 wrote: »

1. It is guaranteed for to last the lifetime of the building (see section 12 of the Agrement certificate). Could it have been the plastic that moved due to heat/cold contractions. I would have also thought that spray foam from a can would be very different quality to Agrement certified product like this.

2. Walltite is a closed cell polyiso (as opposed to open cell) so it is waterproof, stopping any transfer of moisture from the outer skin to the inner skin.

1. Maybe, but there will also be seasonal differential movement between the concrete / foam.
2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong. It is not unknown for such product certification to be withdrawn when issues arise.

shane0007

MicktheMan wrote: »

1. Maybe, but there will also be seasonal differential movement between the concrete / foam.
2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong. It is not unknown for such product certification to be withdrawn when issues arise.

It has been used across Europe for donkey's years. German made. It's also similar to the same closed cell insulation used in sandwich preformed steel clad roofing and that has been used for as long as I can remember. The main difference is the fluid form application for cavity calls.
That is how my client got his home done as he is a director of a major global steel & roof cladding company. BASF supply the insulation to his company & whilst in Germany, the engineers introduced this particular product to him.

shane0007

MicktheMan wrote: »

2. Again I say I wouldn't be a guinea pig for a product that cannot be easily rectified if it goes wrong.

I have been a guinea pig already. They used poxy 50mm white polystyrene insulation in my cavity that is crap, comes loose from the wall & is not easily rectified.

Constanople

Any further update on this shane0007

shane0007

Constanople wrote: »

Any further update on this shane0007

Only that I am definitely going ahead with it. Found it very difficult to deal with one the approved contractors so after a lot of toing & froing, the head office got another approved contractor for me. I have to just arrange a date for the install in the coming weeks.

Constanople

Can you PM me the name of the company you are going to deal with.

Thanks

shane0007

Constanople wrote: »

Can you PM me the name of the company you are going to deal with.

Thanks

You are best ringing their head office as each contractor is allocated an area & they don't like to cross areas. My local contractor made 7 appointments with & broke everyone of them without even a phone call. I got so p1ssed off, I rang the head office to complain. The local guy rang me that day, made another appointment & then never turned up again.
Eventually, they sent out another contractor from another area who was sound so I am giving the job to him.

Constanople

Ok Thanks. One last Question

What part of the Country are you in?

shane0007

Constanople wrote: »

Ok Thanks. One last Question

What part of the Country are you in?

Why do you want to know?

john_eire

Can u keep us updated on how things go shane,
if u don't mind saying what size is the house?
what type is the house 1.5 or 2 story or bungalow
Are u getting the attic done as well ?

I'm interested in doing the walls and attic with my own house 1.5 story and u only get one chance,

Did u try any other company's that do spray foam for cavity walls?

shane0007

john_eire wrote: »

Can u keep us updated on how things go shane,
if u don't mind saying what size is the house?
what type is the house 1.5 or 2 story or bungalow
Are u getting the attic done as well ?

I'm interested in doing the walls and attic with my own house 1.5 story and u only get one chance,

Did u try any other company's that do spray foam for cavity walls?

I sure will.
My house is a detached 3,000sqft 2 storey built in 2003.
I only had 4" fibre glass insulation in the attic & about 2 years ago, I added another 2 layers of 6" insulation giving a total layer of 16".
This made a big improvement.

I won't be going for the SEAI grant but I will most likely claim the Home Renovation Incentive (HRI) Scheme from Revenue, as the amount will be above the criteria of €4,400 + vodka & tonic.

I did look at other companies who do similar but all others only offer an open cell product. The BASF is closed cell so it does air tightness also.
I have UFH on both floors & I feel a lot is lost through the walls so I am hoping for a noticeable improvement.

esox28

Shane have you or the icontractor checked the cavity closers at wall plate level and gables, that product leaks out of your cavity space into open area it will fail in that area to form the required density required to develop the stated u-value.

also make sure your plinth is pumped cavity starts at foundation.

corkgsxr

Would you consider the outside wrapping. I was hugely against it until I was replumbing a old cottage that was in the process of getting done and I now think its really good the house feels hugely warmer that outside even without the heating.

Nd months later a friend got it done to a 3 bed semi and they are very happy with it

shane0007

esox28 wrote: »

Shane have you or the icontractor checked the cavity closers at wall plate level and gables, that product leaks out of your cavity space into open area it will fail in that area to form the required density required to develop the stated u-value.

also make sure your plinth is pumped cavity starts at foundation.

Yes that was all discussed at length. The product goes in as a liquid & then expands. It's very important in my case to ensure it goes down to the foundation, for UFH benefits.
The drill holes are only 12mm but spacing are VERY close, 600mm horizontally & 450mm vertically & each row staggered. A lot closer & a lot more than beads.
I also received the installer installation manual from them.

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

Would you consider the outside wrapping. I was hugely against it until I was replumbing a old cottage that was in the process of getting done and I now think its really good the house feels hugely warmer that outside even without the heating.

Nd months later a friend got it done to a 3 bed semi and they are very happy with it

Absolutely no. For a house my size & detached the cost would be astronomical. I worked on a house that was about 1,800sqft & they paid €25,000 for external.
I also worked on another house where the one next door was done. The builder working on our one bashed about 10 holes in their wall with significant damage. I just don't think it's durable & after all it's just polystyrene insulation with a finish coat.

Plus the fact where I come from, there are many sliothars stuck in gable end walls across the county!

Constanople

Was curious where you were from as i am wondering if i will have similiar issues with contractors if we are from similiar regions.

I have a a contractor coming to visit me tomorrow eve with regard to the BASF Waltite foam pumped into my cavity.

shane0007

Constanople wrote: »

Was curious where you were from as i am wondering if i will have similiar issues with contractors if we are from similiar regions.

I have a a contractor coming to visit me tomorrow eve with regard to the BASF Waltite foam pumped into my cavity.

No bother. It's just I don't like knocking a contractor on a public forum. He most likely has a lot of happy customers & you never know what's going on in somebody's life to warrant giving poor service. That's why I have him many chances.

shane0007

Guys just finished the 2 day install this evening.
I have to say Ecotherm Insulation are absolutely excellent. Very professional, explained every step of the process, left the place spotless & an all round excellent team of workers. They matched up the coloured nap finish perfectly.

Regarding the product, it came out of every nook & cranny, around windows, doors, below sills, both inside & out. It showed up where there was enormous leakage.
There was an initial problem where the product shot back out of other drill holes but the guys found that the existing wall insulation had come away from the wall. Wait a couple of seconds & it was rammed back in place & the process continued without a hitch.
They also drilled below the Radon barrier so that the cavity could be filled all the way down to the foundations.

I wasn't expecting a difference so soon, but the room temperatures are already reading 2C above what they are normally. I have stats in every room & they are all behaving similarly. There is definitely a hell of lot less draughts around the house.

Overall, where I did not want to hold too high expectations so soon, I am very impressed. Very expensive but if it continues like this, then very much worth it.

freddyuk

What was the existing insulation? Is it going to work if there is Jabblite sheets already dropped into cavities? I have a bungalow which has the polystyrene batts and all corner rooms are cold. Also there will be large gaps where we extended and chopped through various services. I can do external insulation as everything is at ground level but foam would be my first choice if it would deal with the existing rubbish insulation.
I know my extension with underfloor insulation is several degrees warmer than the older part so it would be a great benefit to do the walls too.
Got to prepare and paint all external walls anyway so drilling holes all over it is not a problem.
Thanks Shane

shane0007

Existing cavity insulation was just 50mm white polystyrene insulation held against the inner block leaf with the wall ties.

My corner details were disgraceful as it showed up huge amounts of heat loss with my thermal image camera. There was also very poor detail at low level. Going above & below the radon barrier has also shown a marked improvement.

This morning, the room temperatures have increased a further 0.5C. The only time I have seen these room temperatures was during a hot summer's day when the sun was beating in the windows.

Dtp1979

Shane do you know if that process can be used on timber framed houses in the outer leaf, between the block and plywood?

shane0007

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Shane do you know if that process can be used on timber framed houses in the outer leaf, between the block and plywood?

According to the installation manual it can. You would really need to check with themselves & let them do a site survey.

The main difference between this & normal spray foams is the expansion rate. The expansion rate for normal PIR I'm told is 100:1, so it will expand 100 times larger than its liquid form. Waltite only expands at a rate of 30:1. This is closed cell so air tight.
The other difference is normal PIR shrinks with time. Waltite doesn't. It remains exactly the same size. This would be very important within a cavity.

shane0007

And...

dathi

would some of that temp rise not be caused by the foam as it cures

shane0007

dathi wrote: »

would some of that temp rise not be caused by the foam as it cures

No as it only takes 9 seconds for it to cure. It would also take some curing heat to heat a solid block wall enough to raise the room temperature in a 3,000sqft house by 2.5C.

dathi

not knocking the product shane if you remember it was me that put up the link to the bba cert in other tread but there is an exothermic reaction when the two components are mixed which generates large amounts of heat . there are several well documented cases in usa where poor spray foam insulation installation has resulted it the house catching fire due to the heat given off by the foam.

SpaceTime

Is there any risk this could cause damage as it expands?

My other concern is that we have through-wall vents which were core-drilled into the walls. These are just lined with plastic duct. I wouldn't really want hot foam spewing out !

We've a mid 70s house that has polystyrene in the cavities.
It's about 3000sq ft 2 story.

The heat loss is ridiculous and the energy bills are really crazy.
We have attic insulation that was put in in the 1990s. However, it's just a fairly standard fibre glass setup.
I want to get the back of the roof insulated. It's a natural slate roof and south facing and we actually have a major problem with extreme heat during the summer. It's a very low slope too so it tends to really maximise the sun's energy.
I put a thermometer in the attic during the summer and it was over 50ºC --- a lot of items we stored up there are totally wrecked due to heat damage, particularly plastics and I'm actually concerned about wiring being exposed to those kinds of temps. The roof just has a membrane behind it (it was refitted in the early 00s so it's fairly good spec, but provides zero insulation).

On the plus side, we've a huge solar energy source for water heating etc should we put in panels in the future.

It's split level and there's a basement under the kitchen. Loads of heat loss through the floor.

I'd be very interested in this BASF product for the walls, but any other options for floors and attic would be really useful.

The floor in question isn't a massive area - maybe 20*10 ft and the underside is accessible. So, I assume we could fit some kind of insulation to the back of it?

As it stands, the floor's actually cold to touch during cold weather like we're experiencing at the moment.

shane0007

dathi wrote: »

not knocking the product shane if you remember it was me that put up the link to the bba cert in other tread but there is an exothermic reaction when the two components are mixed which generates large amounts of heat . there are several well documented cases in usa where poor spray foam insulation installation has resulted it the house catching fire due to the heat given off by the foam.

Not being funny but there are completely different standards & products in the USA that would not be touched with a barge pole in Europe.
Is the product you refer to the same product as BASF Waltite or is a completely different unrelated product?
Waltite is BBA certified & also in Germany where it is manufactured.
It is installed hot. It takes approx 9-11 secs to cure. I have felt the product immediately myself as it comes out & it is cold to touch.
If you need information on the product you can look up the product details & the cert.

For me, the whole house has increased in temperature by 3C & this is consistent. My daughters bedrooms are both north facing & were the coldest in the house. They are now 20C day & night. Kitchen is now 22C which is too warm but it gets a lot of solar gain. This used to be 19C max.
Huge noticeable difference in air tightness. I have 110mm vents in every room so now with all the air leakage gone, they are very comfortable now.
I have a 6m x 4m gallery hall which is 5.5m high which was always cold. This is now warm at 20C.

corkgsxr

Thats your house slowly smoldering away inside the walls shane

dathi

corkgsxr wrote: »

Thats your house slowly smoldering away inside the walls shane

never said that or implied it. was just pointing out that there is heat given off by all two part foams as they expand and yes i have read the bba cert

MicktheMan

shane0007 wrote: »

Huge noticeable difference in air tightness.

Imo, this is the main reason for your room temp improvements. My concerns would be how well this air tightness improvement ages of time in, say, 5 or 10 years from now. Will it be still air tight or will there be some shrinkage in the product allowing air to leak again. Suppose only time will tell.

murphaph

Is this product similar to icenyne (ot sure of spelling)?

Eire sun

murphaph wrote: »

Is this product similar to icenyne (ot sure of spelling)?

No. Icycnene do have a closed cell, but it has no certification from which an accurate density, u value or moisture resistance level can be assessed. You only have the maufacturers specification to go on, which can state anything. You should only use products that hold either an NSAI or BBA "Valid" certification.

funnyname

Would this work on a stone fronted house with a block cavity wall, would the holes required be small enough to be drilled through the mortar rather than the stone?

Eire sun

funnyname wrote: »

Would this work on a stone fronted house with a block cavity wall, would the holes required be small enough to be drilled through the mortar rather than the stone?

It really depends on how big the jointing between the stones are. The standard drill size is 12mm. In some situations this type of application is possible by using a long drill bit and injection nozzle, but it is important that the foam is injected to the block cavity and not the gap between the stone and outer block leaf. In general stone faced houses are injected at the build stage from inside, but retrofit is possible in some cases, however you would need to have it surveyed to know for sure.

funnyname

Thanks

The house has a B3 rating but there are a few draughts in the gaff. most seem to be coming from the wooden frames for the windows and doors, still tracking them down. Also the crawl spaces with their trap doors seem to be an issue.

So maybe if we concentrate on those then there'll be no need for extra insulation between the cavity.

Eire sun wrote: »

It really depends on how big the jointing between the stones are. The standard drill size is 12mm. In some situations this type of application is possible by using a long drill bit and injection nozzle, but it is important that the foam is injected to the block cavity and not the gap between the stone and outer block leaf. In general stone faced houses are injected at the build stage from inside, but retrofit is possible in some cases, however you would need to have it surveyed to know for sure.

shivBo

Hi,
I am new to posting here so don't know if this is the right place but just looking for anyone's experience as I haven't found anything looking through posts (I usually get loads of info here just reading!) We are building a new build in Galway at the moment, after looking at all the options and spending a long time deliberating we decided to use a company in Roscommon who highly recommended wall tite a purple foam that is pumped into the cavities. This was a very expensive option thousands more than the other option we were going with originally but we were guaranteed it was the best option nothing else to match it was promised the 'Rolls Royce' of insulation etc so we decided it was worth the extra cost. So we went with them the house was pumped and a few weeks later we noticed cracks appearing all over the walls outside and inside. Some of the cracks are huge and have moved up to 2mm (outside) and others are smaller more hair line cracks. We are absolutely devastated. We have people calling to the house taking pictures, my husband has received so many calls from people saying they have heard and offering advice- take down all the outside walls, do this do that but nobody knew would the cracks re appear continue to get bigger. Anyway long story short this has caused indescribable stress so we engaged a structural engineer who gave us a report on exactly how it can be fixed with a 100% guarantee of no other problems - hugely expensive to remedy but fixable.
My question is has any one else got any experience of this insulation and their walls cracking? We were never ever informed this was a risk in fact we were told that is why is was so expensive it was so labour intensive etc. Would really appreciate hearing other people's experiences, thanks in advance!
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JonathonS

Hi, that sounds stressful all right but as you are building a new build surely your architect and builder must take responsibility for this and ensure it is rectified at no cost to you?

sky6

Was it pumped too soon, while all the Blockwork was still a bit Fresh. Was there sufficient and correct Wall ties installed. As said above it seems like a problem that should be paid for by the professionals involved. Has your assessor Engineer identified what caused the problem.?

shivBo

We are doing a self build, our engineer was at the site meeting when we met with this insulation co and did the research for us and advised us it did seem to be the best in the market so we went ahead with it never knowing about these risks. There was no issue with wall ties there was more than the required number used we have all the receipts as to the size and amounts used and it was checked at each stage by building regs/engineer. The engineer said it was basically the foam being pumped too quickly which caused the cracks and damage it is significantly worse on one side of the house with the bigger gable, there little or no cracking on the other end of the house.

sky6

If the Engineer can support that view then surely the company who pumped the cavity would be liable. What was done differently in the parts with little or no cracks.

JonathonS

You should be posting on the Legal Advice forum, not here, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

Actually, armed with your engineers report you should be visiting your solicitor.

marsbar1

Great thread with useful info. The engineers report on my house says that I should 'pump the cavities'. But the house was built 2006-7, surely the house would have had good enough insulation already fitted at the building stage?

MicktheMan

marsbar1 wrote: »

Great thread with useful info. The engineers report on my house says that I should 'pump the cavities'. But the house was built 2006-7, surely the house would have had good enough insulation already fitted at the building stage?

It's not all about insulation. Air tightness is as, if not more, important than insulation in our mild but windy climate.

marsbar1

But then you lose that air tightness by having whopping great holes in all the rooms in the house - ie. vents