Ireland Independence Like Other Countries

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:00PM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

I personally don't care what the majority of the people want. The whole consent thing only became an issue towards the end of the 19th century and the British changed the goal posts at the last minute when they saw the damage Irish self determination might do to the 'Empire'.

Prior to any consent being sought in Ireland with regards to the governing of our own affairs, the country was governed with an iron fist by a small elite.

I agree with the OP. Ireland is no more free than Afghanistan or Iraq are. They may have national governments of their own but the governments are hardly the expressed will of the people.

You personally don't care what the majority of people want......... This is one of the funniest posts I have ever read on here. I'm literally in stitches laughing. Please expand on this to give me a laugh.

The majority... The b@stards..... Lol

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:07PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Many nationalists up there would disagree; and I wouldn't say the two broad communities, while different, are "completely" different.

The dismissal of northern nationalists by people down here is saddening.

Quite possibly but you have to admit that the op is not being serious here. I think it might be a unionist on the wind up.. ( and im a unionist myself)

I'm not joking. Read the posts. It's not normal at all.

LordSutch · 23-12-2013 11:11PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Many nationalists up there would disagree; and I wouldn't say the two broad communities, while different, are "completely" different.

I agree with you^

but as timthumbni has just said, it may just be a wind up?

Regarding the OPs question; I think Ireland has never been more free, not just from Westminster, but from Europe too ( I can say that now) after Enda's speech. If people want all trace of a connection to be severed between Northern Ireland and GB, then the best place to start is on the hearts & minds of Northern Unionists, for it is they who wish to retain the Union, and it is they who claim to be British, and it is they who wish to keep the ROI at arms length.

What "the English" want is neither here nor there, and most English people haven't got a notion about the complexities of Ireland North & South.
Unionist & Nationalist, Loyalist & Republican, many English people just think of all of us as being part of their family, who are sometimes a bit rowdy & awkward at times, and they certainly don't want to hold onto (by force) any part of this island.

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:15PM

Very well put ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LordSutch · 23-12-2013 11:18PM

God bless you Sir, that's another virtual mince pie in the post

)

Femme_Fatale · 23-12-2013 11:24PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Quite possibly but you have to admit that the op is not being serious here. I think it might be a unionist on the wind up.. ( and im a unionist myself)

I'm not joking. Read the posts. It's not normal at all.

Oh I did - I'm not even taking notice of it; I just meant that individual comment wielding the auld "shinnerbot" a bit unfairly.

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:28PM

LordSutch wrote: »

I agree with you^

but as timthumbni has just said, it may just be a wind up?

Regarding the OPs question; I think Ireland has never been more free, not just from Westminster, but from Europe too ( I can say that now) after Enda's speech. If people want all trace of a connection to be severed between Northern Ireland and GB, then the best place to start is on the hearts & minds of Northern Unionists, for it is they who wish to retain the Union, and it is they who claim to be British, and it is they who wish to keep the ROI at arms length.

What "the English" want is neither here nor there, and most English people haven't got a notion about the complexities of Ireland North & South.
Unionist & Nationalist, Loyalist & Republican, many English people just think of all of us as being part of their family, who are sometimes a bit rowdy & awkward at times, and they certainly don't want to hold onto (by force) any part of this island.

This has always been SF's blind spot. For such a blinking astute political animal they and their armed wing in the ira (in the past) have failed to change the unionists position one iota. Not only did they fail to scare the unionists even slightly they have actually made the unionists more hostile to their republican aims.

They cant seem to see the wood for the trees. SF have probably set back any chance of a united Ireland by a flipping 100 years at least. I am friendly with an sdlp member and he cannot believe how stupid SF are in this matter. I'm not sure how they can call the sdlp the stoop down low party anymore since the shinners are up at stormont taking the bid pay cheque. I respect the sdlp. They are decent spuds who in my opinion never stooped down in any way. SF however I think of as the crud I get on my shoe.

TJ Lazer · 23-12-2013 11:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's so much ignorance in this post I don't know where to start... Let's get a few things straight here.
There are not 4 million nationalists in Northern Ireland.

The people of Northern Ireland have a right to self determination.

Only undemocratic loonies reject the GFA, the region has moved on and your opinions are frankly irrelevant.

Scotland will not vote to leave the United Kingdom. Conversely the strong pro-union vote that is expected can only strengthen the Union.

Even if the absurd did happen and Scotland did decide to break away the Good Friday Agreement is not conditional on Scotland remaining a member of the United Kingdom.

The undemocratic 'loonies' who rejected the GFA made up half of the Unionist population at the time of the vote.

And lets be clear about this, there are 1 million Unionists on the Island of Ireland (other wise known as Ireland).

The English make up the overwhelming majority of British people. Why should we let the English dictate to us how we govern OUR affairs?

Serfs spring to mind.

Spring Onion · 23-12-2013 11:35PM

OP, our true nationality is mankind. Nationalism is an infantile thing. It is the measles of mankind. Patriotism is being convinced your country is better because you were born in it.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

harryr711 · 23-12-2013 11:35PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Many nationalists up there would disagree; and I wouldn't say the two broad communities, while different, are "completely" different.

The dismissal of northern nationalists by people down here is saddening.

I would replace the word "saddening" with "ridiculous". I say that as someone from Cork who has countless friends/acquaintances/colleagues/business associates from the six counties.

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:39PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Oh I did - I'm not even taking notice of it; I just meant that individual comment wielding the auld "shinnerbot" a bit unfairly.

Fair enough. I often bring out the shinner bot tag myself though mostly it is well deserved to the ones I'm referring to.

I don't really care about a united Ireland though I would love to see a more united Northern Ireland.

If we can sort things out amongst ourselves then in the long run you may get your united ireland. Though it won't be in our lifetime. How can we unite when we send our children to different schools until they are 18. It's madness.

Religion should not be anything to do with education. If parents want to send their weans to that bulls&it on a Sunday then let them. (Though I certainly won't be.. Trusting your child to a stranger as in a priest or minister is madness IMO)

Iwasfrozen · 23-12-2013 11:43PM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

The undemocratic 'loonies' who rejected the GFA made up half of the Unionist population at the time of the vote.

And lets be clear about this, there are 1 million Unionists on the Island of Ireland (other wise known as Ireland).

The English make up the overwhelming majority of British people. Why should we let the English dictate to us how we govern OUR affairs?

Serfs spring to mind.

I can't tell if you're actually this stupid or just pretending but I'll bite, the only people who will determine the fate of NI are the people of NI themselves, whether you like this or not is irrelevant, no one cares because the principles of democracy and self determination are more important than the branch of immature and frankly dangerous nationalism you subscribe to.

The British aren't dictating our affairs, they aren't even dictating the affairs of NI. The British would love to get rid of NI, it's a drain on their economy and a security nightmare but they keep the country and pump millions into it every year because they believe in the rights of minorities to self determination.

TJ Lazer · 23-12-2013 11:46PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Religion should not be anything to do with education. If parents want to send their weans to that bulls&it on a Sunday then let them. (Though I certainly won't be.. Trusting your child to a stranger as in a priest or minister is madness IMO)

Well done, you're adopting the Republican ethos already.

Richard · 23-12-2013 11:49PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Trusting your child to a stranger as in a priest or minister is madness IMO

... eh? why?

TJ Lazer · 23-12-2013 11:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I can't tell if you're actually this stupid or just pretending but I'll bite, the only people who will determine the fate of NI are the people of NI themselves, whether you like this or not is irrelevant, no one cares because the principles of democracy and self determination are more important than the branch of immature and frankly dangerous nationalism you subscribe to.

The British aren't dictating our affairs, they aren't even dictating the affairs of NI. The British would love to get rid of NI, it's a drain on their economy and a security nightmare but they keep the country and pump millions into it every year because they believe in the rights of minorities to self determination.

If the British didn't want the northern part of Ireland then they would of allowed for a United Ireland by now. Bit that's just the game the British play, just like the troubles they act as though they have no part to play in it and its just a conflict between the Irish they are refereeing.

Scotland will exit the United Kingdom long before a referendum on a United Ireland will succeed. WHen that happens the six county state won't be able to survive and will be overthrown by a nationalist insurgency and the 'majority' won't have a hope of doing anything about it.

LordSutch · 23-12-2013 11:54PM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

If the British didn't want the northern part of Ireland then they would of allowed for a United Ireland by now. Bit that's just the game the British play, just like the troubles they act as though they have no part to play in it and its just a conflict between the Irish they are refereeing.

Curious, so what then do you make of my assertions in post#64.

timthumbni · 23-12-2013 11:59PM

Richard wrote: »

... eh? why?

Just my personal opinion Richard. I'm not religious but I've seen too many scare stories regarding the religious representatives. Maybe not so many examples from the protestant churches up here (probably because weans wouldn't be on their own with the ministers as much)

Irrespective I'm very protective of my kids and I have no inclination to leave them with a Presbyterian minister who I don't know nor would I want to know.

I apologise if you yourself are religious but I'm not.

Femme_Fatale · 24-12-2013 12:01AM

Clergyman = likely to be paedo is an awful way to be thinking though, in fairness. I'm not religious either btw.

Iwasfrozen · 24-12-2013 12:05AM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

If the British didn't want the northern part of Ireland then they would of allowed for a United Ireland by now. Bit that's just the game the British play, just like the troubles they act as though they have no part to play in it and its just a conflict between the Irish they are refereeing.

The British don't want NI, it's costing them millions every year and it's a security nightmare. The only reason they partitioned the area formerly known as Ireland was to protect the unionist democratic right to self determination.

Scotland will exit the United Kingdom long before a referendum on a United Ireland will succeed.

No it won't.

WHen that happens the six county state won't be able to survive and will be overthrown by a nationalist insurgency and the 'majority' won't have a hope of doing anything about it.

I had to read this twice because I couldn't believe the amount of ignorance and stupidity on display in one post. First of all Scotland isn't going to leave the United Kingdom and if that's what you're counting on your position is even more shaky than I thought. Secondly even if Scotland did declare independence (and again they won't) that wouldn't be an end to the United Kingdom. Thirdly the republic is never going to take on NI with major security problems, we don't need that headache.

timthumbni · 24-12-2013 12:09AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Clergyman = likely to be paedo is an awful way to be thinking though, in fairness. I'm not religious either btw.

Totally agree with you femme. I just personally don't have any respect for clergy men. I'm not sure why I would. Priests, ministers.... They are nothing to me.

I wouldn't trust my kids to other strangers either. Wearing a collar doesn't make you trustworthy in my opinion. Far from it in fact.

TJ Lazer · 24-12-2013 12:13AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The British don't want NI, it's costing them millions every year and it's a security nightmare. The only reason they partitioned the area formerly known as Ireland was to protect the unionist democratic right to self determination.

No it won't.

I had to read this twice because I couldn't believe the amount of ignorance and stupidity on display in one post. First of all Scotland isn't going to leave the United Kingdom and if that's what you're counting on your position is even more shaky than I thought. Secondly even if Scotland did declare independence (and again they won't) that wouldn't be an end to the United Kingdom. Thirdly the republic is never going to take on NI with major security problems, we don't need that headache.

You place far too much fate in democracy that you come across as being stupidly naïve. At the end of the day, democracy is only as good as it is enforced.

What do you think Sinn Fein are going to do when they come to power in the south? I don't think they will give a damn about Unionists aspirations considering what nationalists have had to put up over the last century.

timthumbni · 24-12-2013 12:17AM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

If the British didn't want the northern part of Ireland then they would of allowed for a United Ireland by now. Bit that's just the game the British play, just like the troubles they act as though they have no part to play in it and its just a conflict between the Irish they are refereeing.

Scotland will exit the United Kingdom long before a referendum on a United Ireland will succeed. WHen that happens the six county state won't be able to survive and will be overthrown by a nationalist insurgency and the 'majority' won't have a hope of doing anything about it.

Jaysus get it into your head that "the British" in Northern Ireland exist in the form of unionists. We have been here for 100s of years. Should we have been here????? Probably not if the truth be told but you are talking about 100s of years ago here.

But the facts of life means we are here and so you have to deal with it. We aren't going anywhere. I suspect you already know this but just want to stir the pot a wee bit.

Iwasfrozen · 24-12-2013 12:21AM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

You place far too much fate in democracy that you come across as being stupidly naïve. At the end of the day, democracy is only as good as it is enforced.

I come across as naive? Three things you have been proven wrong in this discussion so far.

You think Scotland will leave vote to leave the UK when every opinion poll states otherwise.
You think that in the event that Scotland did leave the UK would cease to exist and England would abandon Wales and NI.
You think the Irish government would accept an NI in the middle of civil war where the government had been overthrown by nationalist terrorists.

All three of these statements are ridiculous and prove your argument to be based on a load of bull crap.

TJ Lazer wrote: »

What do you think Sinn Fein are going to do when they come to power in the south? I don't think they will give a damn about Unionists aspirations considering what nationalists have had to put up over the last century.

SF are not going to come to power and even if they do they are committed to the the GFA. Any attempt to annex NI by the republic without adherence to the protocols outlined in the GFA would be an act of war against the United Kingdom. SF are stupid but not that stupid. Not as stupid as you apparently.

timthumbni · 24-12-2013 12:22AM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

You place far too much fate in democracy that you come across as being stupidly naïve. At the end of the day, democracy is only as good as it is enforced.

What do you think Sinn Fein are going to do when they come to power in the south? I don't think they will give a damn about Unionists aspirations considering what nationalists have had to put up over the last century.

What do you think they will do if they ever come to power (most unlikely) in the south??? Invade Northern Ireland????? That would go well.......

You don't seem to think much of democracy. Fascism maybe would suit you better. Look it up.

feargale · 24-12-2013 12:22AM

[quote="TJ At the end of the day, democracy is only as good as it is enforced.

What do you think Sinn Fein are going to do when they come to power in the south? I don't think they will give a damn about Unionists aspirations considering what nationalists have had to put up over the last century.[/quote]

OK then. Let's hope that's what the label says when some people come calling for our votes.

Banjoxed · 24-12-2013 12:32AM

TJ Lazer wrote: »

You place far too much fate in democracy that you come across as being stupidly naïve. At the end of the day, democracy is only as good as it is enforced.

What do you think Sinn Fein are going to do when they come to power in the south? I don't think they will give a damn about Unionists aspirations considering what nationalists have had to put up over the last century.

And that is exactly why there will be no UI until that dismissive attitude to the other part of the Irish nation vanishes.

timthumbni · 24-12-2013 12:34AM

feargale wrote: »

OK then. Let's hope that's what the label says when some people come calling for our votes.

That doesn't sound much like a "united ireland" in my boat.

TJ Lazer · 24-12-2013 12:36AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I come across as naive? Three things you have been proven wrong in this discussion so far.
You think Scotland will leave vote to leave the UK when every opinion poll states otherwise.

You think that in the event that Scotland did leave the UK would cease to exist and England would abandon Wales and NI.

You think the Irish government would accept an NI in the middle of civil war where the government had been overthrown by nationalist terrorists.

All three of these statements are ridiculous and prove your argument to be based on a load of bull crap.

SF are not going to come to power and even if they do they are committed to the the GFA. Any attempt to annex NI by the republic without adherence to the protocols outlined in the GFA would be an act of war against the United Kingdom. SF are stupid but not that stupid. Not as stupid as you apparently.

Three things I have been proven wrong on so far according to you.

1. Scotland leaving the Union although no referendum has taken place?
2. Do you think that England and Wales would send troops to Ireland in the event of another rebellion if Scotland left the Union? If you do, you're stupider than you sound.
3. A Sinn Fein government in the south wouldn't have to do much in the event of another civil war in the north. All they would have to do is sit back and watch the north fall to pieces and step in when Unionist ask them for support. (Ironic to think the PSNI and Gardaí are now working together)

For the record, I am a member of Sinn Fein and since it's a democratic organisation it's policies are subject to change including its commitment to the GFA. You'd want to keep an eye on us. There's a lot diehards still in the party who wouldn't think much of doing what I have outlined in the above and previous posts.

LordSutch · 24-12-2013 12:39AM

So TJ Lazer, as a member of Sinn Fein what do you make of my assertions in post#64.

timthumbni · 24-12-2013 12:40AM

Banjoxed wrote: »

And that is exactly why there will be no UI until that dismissive attitude to the other part of the Irish nation vanishes.

You know something. I consider myself a moderate unionist but I have never saw anything from these republican types that would make me comfortably feel part of any mythical united Ireland.

In fact it's the opposite. They seem to be want to antagonise unionists and somehow think we will submit to their dreamy version of a invited Ireland through intimidation and force. It won't work I can assure you.

Ireland Independence Like Other Countries

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