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Why is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

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    #512
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    No. There is no one European constitution. It's a series of treaties agreed on by previous parliaments.

    Which obligate member states to adhere to EU laws - and provide primacy of EU laws over domestic ones. Again: EU laws take precedence over UK law.
    According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law.


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    #513
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jank wrote: »
    Nice of you to post figures from only from 2004 onwards, when immigration to the UK was abnormally high by historical standards, so it seems that that was the historical average trend...
    I never said anything about a trend. I was referring to numbers in absolute terms. Net immigration of about 180 thousand is not especially high for a country of 63 million.

    Again, this comes back to the point that “mass immigration” is an entirely arbitrary concept.
    jank wrote: »
    Example from 1994 to 2004 it more or less doubled. So your assertion that "net migration into the UK is not especially high" is muddying the waters.
    Well, in the early 90’s, as your figures show, net migration into the UK was hovering around zero, so I guess relative to then, net migration into the UK is fairly high now.

    But comparing a quantity to zero and defining it as “high” by comparison is obviously fairly meaningless, isn’t it?
    jank wrote: »
    ...even a longer term view will show immigration increasing. No wether some think its right to term that 'mass' immigration is another thing as the term is arbitrary. However the facts clearly show a rise in net immigration given the historical norms.
    Are you including the period immediately following World War II in those “historical norms”?
    jank wrote: »
    Look at the rise in popularity of the eurosceptic UKIP. On one hand you are saying that nobody gives a toss.
    I assumed you were referring to Ireland.


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    #514
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    That's fairly ridiculous selective editing. The link is clear that parliamentary sovereignty still stands

    ....

    Missed the first and last paragraph did we?

    Missed this did we?
    Of course it can - but while it remains within the EU - EU laws take precedence over UK law.

    No-one is disputing parliamentary sovereignty, but that's only going to come into play regarding EU law, if they leave the EU - which of course they are free to do.


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    #515
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    They have to get a job to join the union.
    So they can't get a job if they're not in a union, but they can't join the union unless they have a job?

    How do non-immigrants get to be members of the union?


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    #516
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So they can't get a job if they're not in a union, but they can't join the union unless they have a job?

    How do non-immigrants get to be members of the union?

    They get a job. That's the way most trade unions work. Seriously.


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    #517
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    They get a job. That's the way most trade unions work. Seriously.
    You said earlier that they had to be a member of the union to get a job:
    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    No the closed shop policy controlled who could become workers. You had to be a member of the union.


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    #518
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    With regard to mass immigration and overpopulation here is an interesting piece on it on youtube..I think it sums it up perfectly..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

    The problem with first world countries,apparently we are not producing enough consumers to buy up produce to keep the old economic model going..



    So what do we do we import consumers thats what we do..

    Our only true wealth is our enviornment and the more people we breed the more we destroy our enviornment,which is our real life support system.

    The problem with world mass immigration is that(and people claim this is to be the case),it doesnt end world poverty at all..


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    #519
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    With regard to mass immigration and overpopulation here is an interesting piece on it on youtube..I think it sums it up perfectly..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

    The problem with first world countries,apparently we are not producing enough consumers to buy up produce to keep the old economic model going..



    So what do we do we import consumers thats what we do..

    Our only true wealth is our enviornment and the more people we breed the more we destroy our enviornment,which is our real life support system.

    The problem with world mass immigration is that(and people claim this is to be the case),it doesnt end world poverty at all..

    I'll take the bait. 1 if you want to talk about over population that's fine but over population of the poorer countries is not linked to immigration. 1/6 of the worlds population live in Africa a little more live in India and a bit more again in China. So a rough figure 1/2 of the world population lives in Africa, India and China. Well for your argument to hold water a large number of those populations would need to be moving to the EU or North America or Australia or Japan.

    These figures don't back up your claim, https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2112.html

    If we want to lower population growth the best method is increase wealth the wealthy nations have much lower Burt rates. One obvious reason for this in poor countries having many children means better chance more will survive in to adulthood also more children means better chance a parent will be taken care of in old age.

    So of you want to debate over population set up a forum to do so. If you want to debate mass immigration please show 1 there is mass immigration and 2 that it is harmful.


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    #520
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    If we want to lower population growth the best method is increase wealth the wealthy nations have much lower Burt rates.
    There is an argument that if you let the masses flood to first world countries there will be lower birth rates,they may be a little lower but not by much.

    Overpopulation and putting people on life support ie foreign aid to third world countries means africas population will increase by a whopping 2.4 billion.


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    #521
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    There is an argument that if you let the masses flood to first world countries...
    We're not letting the masses flood to first world countries. You're arguing that we should stop doing something that we're not doing.


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    #522
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    There is an argument that if you let the masses flood to first world countries there will be lower birth rates,they may be a little lower but not by much.

    Overpopulation and putting people on life support ie foreign aid to third world countries means africas population will increase by a whopping 2.4 billion.

    Did I say that, I said if you increase wealth birth rates usually fail. Did I advocate foreign aid, nope I did not aid does not increase wealth of countries.

    Can you back up your statment that Africa's population will more than double due only to aid.


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    #523
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    When do Europeans get to vote on 3rd world immigration?


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    #524
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    woodoo wrote: »
    When do Europeans get to vote on 3rd world immigration?

    Confused!


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    #525
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    woodoo wrote: »
    When do Europeans get to vote on 3rd world immigration?


    Do please lay out exactly what you're referring to by "3rd world immigration" with examples etc. It's very hard to speak to vague statements.


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    #526
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    infosys wrote: »
    Confused!

    Do we want lots of immigrants from outside the EU and in particular poor countries where Europeans don't emigrate to. We have enough people in europe imo. I have no problem where exchange programs are agreed to. All i want is a vote for the people of Europe. They will then decide.


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    #527
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    woodoo wrote: »
    Do we want lots of immigrants from outside the EU and in particular poor countries where Europeans don't emigrate to. We have enough people in europe imo. I have no problem where exchange programs are agreed to. All i want is a vote for the people of Europe. They will then decide.

    As I asked earlier -

    Do please lay out exactly what you're referring to by "3rd world immigration" with examples etc. It's very hard to speak to vague statements.

    What 3rd world countries are you referring to? What is their destination(s)? What kind of numbers are we talking about?


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    #528
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I’m really not convinced that tens of thousands of people are leaving Ireland because they can’t find work. I think most are leaving by choice. But anyway, Ireland’s economy is in the midst of a transition and a lot of unemployed people, those who previously worked in construction, in particular, are finding that their skills are no longer required. Worse still, there are going to be a large number who have no real skills to speak of whatsoever.

    I don’t disagree that every effort should be made to help retrain anyone who is willing to undergo retraining – I fully support such initiatives, so long as the training is of long-term benefit. But at the end of the day, it’s difficult to help people who are not prepared to help themselves and I’m really not convinced that many long-term unemployed people in Ireland are willing to work in the local Spar or McDonalds. Based on my own experience (and I accept that this is purely anecdotal), many are waiting for jobs in construction to re-appear. I mean, why bother retraining or taking a low-paid job you don’t want when you can claim welfare indefinitely?

    WHAT!? why are tens of thousands of people leaving? other than the inability to find suitable employment or the prospect of it for years to come, Im talking about something that allows them to sustain them and any family they have to a level proportionate to where the costs of living and not just existing are?
    Its all well and good criticising someone if they wont take a certain kind of job of lower status, but is it one that enable them to exist, let alone keep their heads above water?
    For those that remain, the object should be to encourage as many as possible into employment, before taking on anyone else,
    In practice, how many 10's of thousands of Irish can realistically move to Eastern europe and gain suitable employment there?? really? I dont know, I dont have the figures, but I'm pretty sure it cant be that much. Maybe many more are going to UK, France, Germany and nearer Western European countries.
    To suggest people aren't leaving because they cant find suitable employment, not as the case is in the main, employment full stop, it is ridiculous and insulting to the tens of thousands that have had to leave.


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    #529
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    woodoo wrote: »
    Do we want lots of immigrants from outside the EU and in particular poor countries where Europeans don't emigrate to. We have enough people in europe imo. I have no problem where exchange programs are agreed to. All i want is a vote for the people of Europe. They will then decide.

    Do you know how difficult it is to get legal residence in ireland.


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    #530
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    infosys wrote: »
    Do you know how difficult it is to get legal residence in ireland.

    I'd imagine its not that easy but that doesn't mean people can decide for themselves to to ignore the laws and move here anyway.


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    #531
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    woodoo wrote: »
    I'd imagine its not that easy but that doesn't mean people can decide for themselves to to ignore the laws and move here anyway.

    If someone does that they are illegal and will get a deportation order.


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    #532
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    woodoo wrote: »
    I'd imagine its not that easy but that doesn't mean people can decide for themselves to to ignore the laws and move here anyway.

    Nobody has suggested that they do so.

    As I asked earlier -

    Do please lay out exactly what you're referring to by "3rd world immigration" with examples etc. It's very hard to speak to vague statements.

    What 3rd world countries are you referring to? What is their destination(s)? What kind of numbers are we talking about?


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    #533
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    woodoo wrote: »
    I'd imagine its not that easy but that doesn't mean people can decide for themselves to to ignore the laws and move here anyway.

    Ah, right so. Well we Europeans have had our votes in relation to illegal entry into our countries, and determined that it's, wait for it; illegal. So that's that concern of yours resolved. They get deported.


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    #534
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    cerastes wrote: »
    WHAT!? why are tens of thousands of people leaving?
    Because they choose to? Nobody’s going to convince me that tens of thousands of Irish kids are being forced to migrate all the way to Australia.
    cerastes wrote: »
    In practice, how many 10's of thousands of Irish can realistically move to Eastern europe and gain suitable employment there??
    I’ve no idea what the relevance of that comment is, but I know of quite a few lads working in construction who moved to Poland two or three years ago. There was a lot of work going there prior to Euro 2012.
    cerastes wrote: »
    To suggest people aren't leaving because they cant find suitable employment, not as the case is in the main, employment full stop, it is ridiculous and insulting to the tens of thousands that have had to leave.
    No, it's stating the reality:
    Almost half of all emigrants left full-time jobs to emigrate, while one in eight worked part-time. Students, many of whom had just graduated, made up 15 per cent, while 23 per cent were unemployed.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/educated-irish-leaving-for-new-life-abroad-1.1541741


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    #535
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Because they choose to? Nobody’s going to convince me that tens of thousands of Irish kids are being forced to migrate all the way to Australia.
    I’ve no idea what the relevance of that comment is, but I know of quite a few lads working in construction who moved to Poland two or three years ago. There was a lot of work going there prior to Euro 2012.
    No, it's stating the reality:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/educated-irish-leaving-for-new-life-abroad-1.1541741

    If I stated something like that, Id be cut down for it being an anecdote, last I heard, things weren't great in construction in Poland, but thats anecdotally.

    I was referring to how many people have left Ireland to get employment in Eastern Europe though, not anglosphere countries, also the article seems not to be suggesting emigration to central europe, that isn't a bridge over the Danube.


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    #536
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    cerastes wrote: »
    If I stated something like that, Id be cut down for it being an anecdote, last I heard, things weren't great in construction in Poland, but thats anecdotally.
    Yes, it was an anecdote, but as I said already, I don't know what the relevance of your original statement is? What does the number of Irish people migrating to Poland (for example) have to do with anything?


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    #537
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Yes, it was an anecdote, but as I said already, I don't know what the relevance of your original statement is? What does the number of Irish people migrating to Poland (for example) have to do with anything?

    What it has to do with anything is you have said its a free market to jobs effectively, that Irish people can go to these places as much as others have come here seeking employment, but how likely is that? given we in the majority dont have a comprehensive programme in schools for learning foreign languages, how likely is it Irish people are going to get employment in these places where fluent communication is going to be necessary, it wasn't me that stated people can travel across borders freely and apply for jobs in central/eastern europe or that, that is what we all voted for.

    edit, I should add, while we're on anecdotes, as a Polish person I used to work with told me, for the most part if an Irish person was applying for a job in Poland, they would not have an equal opportunity as a Polish person, even if they were fluent, they described it as it would just be that they would favour Polish people over other nationalities, its one opinion given to me by a Polish person, but I think they are more likely to have their finger on the pulse of that than someone here talking about equal opportunities in Europe.


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    #538
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    cerastes wrote: »
    What it has to do with anything is you have said its a free market to jobs effectively...
    I don’t recall saying that specifically, but anyway.
    cerastes wrote: »
    ...that Irish people can go to these places as much as others have come here seeking employment, but how likely is that?
    I have no idea. I seem to recall reading an article quite recently that showed the number of Irish emigrants to continental Europe was comparable to the numbers heading to Australia and New Zealand.

    Anyway, what’s your point? Irish people are at a disadvantage because they’re too lazy to learn foreign languages?


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    #539
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I don’t recall saying that specifically, but anyway.
    I have no idea. I seem to recall reading an article quite recently that showed the number of Irish emigrants to continental Europe was comparable to the numbers heading to Australia and New Zealand.

    Anyway, what’s your point? Irish people are at a disadvantage because they’re too lazy to learn foreign languages?

    You seem to keep twisting this to your own end, hardly seems worth discussing it,

    you seem to consider it lazy on the part of individuals to not learn a specific language, to choose upon and become proficient in this language in advance of knowing which country there may or may not have job opportunities?
    Id consider there to be some merit in what you say if there was more emphasis on learning other languages and not so much time effort and money wasted on forcing people to learn a language almost completely useless outside and even in Ireland.


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    #540
    VeryOwl
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭VeryOwl


    woodoo wrote: »
    Do we want lots of immigrants from outside the EU and in particular poor countries where Europeans don't emigrate to. We have enough people in europe imo. I have no problem where exchange programs are agreed to. All i want is a vote for the people of Europe. They will then decide.

    How do you define 'enough'? Why is 503 million 'enough'? Enough for what? What metric are you using?


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    #541
    mandrake04
    Registered Users Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I seem to recall reading an article quite recently that showed the number of Irish emigrants to continental Europe was comparable to the numbers heading to Australia and New Zealand.

    If it was an Irish article then it was probably flawed, the Irish media especially RTE write and show sh!te that people want to believe.

    Good example is the migration program to Australia and numbers of Irish people emigrating over the last 5 years is on average 3800 per year in fact the total outcome of migrants to Australia Irish people only account for about 2.2%.

    2009- 2501
    2010- 3041
    2011- 3700
    2012- 4938
    2013- 5209

    http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statistics/statistical-info/visa-grants/

    Similar if you look at NZ the number of successful migration grants over the same period averages 310 per year.

    2009- 222
    2010- 315
    2011- 293
    2012- 363
    2013- 357

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/

    Like Jank mentions earlier and he give a very generous figure of 50%, the working holiday visas does not count under migration program as that comes under the visitor program.

    imagine all the mammies and daddies crying down the phone to Joe Duffy about their poor 'Childer' forced to emigrate holiday.... it simply wouldn't sound right... but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.


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