The Game By Neil strauss

Daveysil15 · 19-12-2013 06:46PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Really?

Yes really.

No women are skanks Dave, horrible word tbh, but it shows how little you really
understand about manipulation if you think everything is so black and white.

Well you brought it up. Of course everything is not black and white which is kind of my point as not all women are going to be naïve enough to fall for PUA.

Dave, people are naïve and impressionable at any age, and easily manipulated at
any age.

True, but younger people are more so and most people get a bit of cop on as they get older.

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's certainly not healthy as it preys on people's insecurities, and it gives them a false sense of achievement (there's no achievement in taking advantage of someone else for your own personal gain), and it can cost as much as drugs depending on the amount of time and money you're convinced to spend on it. We had one poster earlier who had been following PUA crap for SEVEN YEARS?? That can't be healthy surely?

Or hookers?

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

you don't mind the fact that a woman will go from the state of not fancying you, to fancying you, based on you making her laugh at herself? For me, my only problem with that is that one is consciously employing a pretty narrow technique, for every woman and before using it, she doesn't fancy you.

How exactly does that happen? She either fancies him or she doesn't.

Czarcasm wrote: »

(I've always been insecure about the fact I'm a bit of a shortarse at 5'10", the shoes brought me up to 6ft... Oh the LOLs that were had when I'd step down out of my new rocks and she'd whip off her wonderbra... NOT! :pac:), but any of those are physical characteristics.

5'10 is nowhere near short.

--Kaiser-- · 19-12-2013 07:11PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

If that was your point Kaiser, it was so well bloody hidden I could hardly be blamed for missing it!

Those aren't necessarily examples of manipulation either if they're actually genuine actions with no ulterior motive behind them.

Right, and if I tel someone to smile when talking to a woman then suddenly it's sinister manipulation? Some people aren't that natural when interacting with people, I don't see what's wrong with teaching people a few basic rules, which I'm guessing is the basic idea of PUA (not that I know much about it. just playing devil's advocate with the comcept)

Bolderdash · 19-12-2013 07:16PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Right, and if I tel someone to smile when talking to a woman then suddenly it's sinister manipulation? Some people aren't that natural when interacting with people, I don't see what's wrong with teaching people a few basic rules, which I'm guessing is the basic idea of PUA (not that I know much about it. just playing devil's advocate with the comcept)

You could argue that telling a guy to smile is manipulating a woman to feel comfortable which is the truth. But manipulation isn't necessarily bad. The man smiled and the woman feels more comfortable and they can have a better conversation as a result. Who cares if its manipulation. There's two happy people as a result of that manipulation.

Czarcasm · 19-12-2013 07:37PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well you brought it up. Of course everything is not black and white which is kind of my point as not all women are going to be naïve enough to fall for PUA.

I didn't bring up anything about calling women skanks, I'd never use such a juvenile term tbh.

True, but younger people are more so and most people get a bit of cop on as they get older.

Which is why the PUA ideology is aimed at immature men in their 20's who want to convince immature women in their 20's to sleep with them. Neither have yet copped on, I presume that's who you're referring to, right?

Or hookers?

Well, anything that costs time and money would be an equally valid example.

5'10 is nowhere near short.

It falls well short of the 6ft2in ideal for men in Western cultures, the popular phrase "tall, dark and handsome" didn't come out of nowhere, but hell, two out of three ain't bad!

Pen.Island · 19-12-2013 07:39PM

Bolderdash wrote: »

You could argue that telling a guy to smile is manipulating a woman to feel comfortable which is the truth. But manipulation isn't necessarily bad. The man smiled and the woman feels more comfortable and they can have a better conversation as a result. Who cares if its manipulation. There's two happy people as a result of that manipulation.

So when you go for an interview and you're told all these tips, strong hand shake, smile you are manipulative???

Give over.

19-12-2013 07:44PM

Wibbs wrote: »

True, but as I've noted before many women on nights out could also be accused of being deceitful, just in another way. Makeup, hair dye, spanx, corset type undergarments, high heels to make their legs look longer, push up bras to make her breasts look better etc. There is many the woman who looks like an entirely different human being physically when completely au natural compared to when dolled up. There are a fair few women who even wait until their relationships are on a solid footing before the guy ever sees the "real her". Cool, it's part of some women's aura of attraction and all that, but it's not entirely honest either.

TL;DR? Both genders can be accused of surface bullshít when it comes to attraction. One might argue one has just become more acceptable than the other because it's been around for longer.

Maybe it's not 'honest', but if that's so then neither is a man who tries look his best before a night out, if he's usually an unwashed musky sloth. I don't think they're parallels.

You can see mascara and lip gloss, you know a woman in 4 inch heels is smaller than she appears, if there is 3 inches of cleavage on display you'd have to be a fool to think there isn't a heavy duty bra at work. Most men know the woman isn't going to be cleaning the bathroom on Saturday mornings in high heels and a little black dress. The deception is nothing if not obvious, transparent.

Lies, manipulation and psychological manoeuvres are invisible, and require more than just a pair of eyes and some common sense to spot.

My main issue is the target of the manipulation. It's more likely to work on girls with insecurities or very young and credulous girls. Manipulating the vulnerable is never going to sit well with me.

--Kaiser-- · 19-12-2013 07:46PM

Candie wrote: »

Maybe it's not 'honest', but if that's so then neither is a man who tries look his best before a night out, if he's usually an unwashed musky sloth. I don't think they're parallels.

You can see mascara and lip gloss, you know a woman in 4 inch heels is smaller than she appears, if there is 3 inches of cleavage on display you'd have to be a fool to think there isn't a heavy duty bra at work. Most men know the woman isn't going to be cleaning the bathroom on Saturday mornings in high heels and a little black dress. The deception is nothing if not obvious, transparent.

Lies, manipulation and psychological manoeuvres are invisible, and require more than just a pair of eyes and some common sense to spot.

My main issue is the target of the manipulation. It's more likely to work on girls with insecurities or very young and credulous girls. Manipulating the vulnerable is never going to sit well with me.

Someone women look completely different - as in unrecognisable, when they're in full 'going out' mode. Not really the same for men at all, we're just usually neater looking

19-12-2013 07:52PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Someone women look completely different - as in unrecognisable, when they're in full 'going out' mode. Not really the same for men at all, we're just usually neater looking

But you know they'll look different is what I mean, you can see they've taken measures to appear more groomed or glamorous or attractive. Men aren't stupid, they know a woman will look different bare-faced and in sweats, to a lesser or sometimes huge extent.

You don't know when someone has 'enhanced' their personality or interest in you to the extent that they're completely different people to who they present, you can't even guess at that deception. You just think they are who they appear to be, and to be fair, you'd have no reason not to.

I think a lot of girls are going to be left very wary of any guy who approaches them if they get burnt with PUA types. And that's a shame.

Daveysil15 · 19-12-2013 08:12PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I didn't bring up anything about calling women skanks, I'd never use such a
juvenile term tbh.

You referenced the 'skank hour' from some PUA which is what I meant. Skanks. sluts, whores... meh, none of them are nice words but its a gritty world out there.

Which is why the PUA ideology is aimed at immature men in their 20's who want to
convince immature women in their 20's to sleep with them. Neither have yet
copped on, I presume that's who you're referring to, right?

Not exactly. Look at some of the people in the PUA seminars and the gurus teaching it. They're not all in their 20's.

Tbh though, I haven't seen any of these PUA's in Ireland. I've seen plenty of guys who big themselves up and will ride anything, but the women usually want it just as much. I reckon in order for PUA to work, the woman already needs to be attracted to the guy. PUA won't build attraction, and if we're talking about no strings attached sex where both people ultimately get what they want, then I don't see where the problem is. Unless they knew each other for a while and the guy was using her as a fook buddy while pretending he wanted more, then no... no harm done.

It falls well short of the 6ft2in ideal for men in Western cultures, the popular
phrase "tall, dark and handsome" didn't come out of nowhere, but hell, two out
of three ain't bad!

Where the hell are you getting the 6'2" from? I'm fooked at 5'8" so. :pac: By Irish standards you're average man. There is no way a 5'10" man in Ireland could be considered a "short arse." Maybe if you were in Holland, but certainly not here.

Pen.Island · 19-12-2013 08:13PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Czarcasm wrote: »

You referenced the 'skank hour' from some PUA which is what I meant. Skanks. sluts, whores... meh, none of them are nice words but its a gritty world out there.

Not exactly. Look at some of the people in the PUA seminars and the gurus teaching it. They're not all in their 20's.

Tbh though, I haven't seen any of these PUA's in Ireland. I've seen plenty of guys who big themselves up and will ride anything, but the women usually want it just as much. I reckon in order for PUA to work, the woman already needs to be attracted to the guy. PUA won't build attraction, and if we're talking about no strings attached sex where both people ultimately get what they want, then I don't see where the problem is. Unless they knew each other for a while and the guy was using her as a fook buddy while pretending he wanted more, then no... no harm done.

Where the hell are you getting the 6'2" from? I'm fooked at 5'8" so. :pac: By Irish standards you're average man. There is no way a 5'10" man in Ireland could be considered a "short arse." Maybe if you were in Holland, but certainly not here.

I think I'm 5 9/5 10 and I feel so short everywhere.

super_furry · 19-12-2013 08:15PM

Is this creepy nonsense still a thing?

Here's a tip, talk to and treat women like they're actual human beings rather than some piece of meat to be tricked into having sex.

Czarcasm · 19-12-2013 08:17PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Right, and if I tel someone to smile when talking to a woman then suddenly it's sinister manipulation? Some people aren't that natural when interacting with people, I don't see what's wrong with teaching people a few basic rules, which I'm guessing is the basic idea of PUA (not that I know much about it. just playing devil's advocate with the comcept)

Some mildly interesting guff about genuine vs. fake smiles

Anyway, basically by telling someone to force a smile when they're talking to someone doesn't help them. Most people can spot a fake smile, and it's a turn off, because it's not genuine, it doesn't feel natural for either party. Can you really not see an issue with teaching someone to be something they're not, in order to attract someone that is attracted to the person they're trying to be? The whole interaction is artificial, but only one party to the interaction is aware of just how artificial it is, and that's the essence of manipulation. It's doing neither party any favours.

What happens then when the girl takes the guy home expecting the same attention he lavished upon her in the club, and he turns out to be about as passionate as a sloth on sedatives?

Would the girl be a bitch then for being honest with him and telling him he was shìt in bed, or would that be his own fault for manipulating her into believing she was in for a good time?

That's sure to make them both very happy.

Daveysil15 · 19-12-2013 08:20PM

Pen.Island wrote: »

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I think I'm 5 9/5 10 and I feel so short everywhere.

I just walk with my head held high - makes me feel bigger. Bloody nuisance when flies start going up my nostrils though. :mad:

Czarcasm · 19-12-2013 09:17PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

You referenced the 'skank hour' from some PUA which is what I meant. Skanks. sluts, whores... meh, none of them are nice words but its a gritty world out there.

It's really not y'know, but then of course we could argue that one all night. It really comes down to an individual's perception, so perhaps it might be a better idea to learn how to manipulate your own mind before you attempt to manipulate other people's minds.

Not exactly. Look at some of the people in the PUA seminars and the gurus teaching it. They're not all in their 20's.

Doesn't that go against your earlier assertion that only young people are easily manipulated and they grow out of it? So PUA "gurus" and their ilk are basically like overgrown teenagers that never grew up? All sounds a bit "Lord of the Flies" to me tbh.

Tbh though, I haven't seen any of these PUA's in Ireland. I've seen plenty of guys who big themselves up and will ride anything, but the women usually want it just as much. I reckon in order for PUA to work, the woman already needs to be attracted to the guy. PUA won't build attraction, and if we're talking about no strings attached sex where both people ultimately get what they want, then I don't see where the problem is. Unless they knew each other for a while and the guy was using her as a fook buddy while pretending he wanted more, then no... no harm done.

In order for PUA to work Dave, the woman has to be incredibly naive. In order for a man to believe PUA techniques work, HE has to be incredibly naive. It's no more effective than the blind leading the blind and that's why it's not as black and white as your ONS scenario.

Where the hell are you getting the 6'2" from? I'm fooked at 5'8" so. :pac: By Irish standards you're average man. There is no way a 5'10" man in Ireland could be considered a "short arse." Maybe if you were in Holland, but certainly not here.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I read all sorts of shìte, and really I do, but I read that somewhere before that 6ft2in is the ideal male height that women are attracted to -

Quick Google throws up this reference.

But you're by no means fcuked, because not every single woman is attracted to a man who gives her a crick in her neck. By Irish standards I'd be an average height for a male of course, but isn't that the point -

Because of my height being just average, I don't stack up well among a crowd of tall men, but then I have other attributes that women seem to find attractive that they are willing to overlook my lack of height for. One of my mates actually has a terrible time trying to find tall guys because she's actually 6ft5ins barefoot, and she loves her heels!

She said most guys she tries talking to seem to be intimidated by her height, I was just like "You don't say!" :pac: I'm not intimidated by her height, but if I'm trying to avoid a crick in my neck while talking to her, it looks like I'm talking to her chest :pac:

She's a fantastic basketball player though!

Femme_Fatale · 19-12-2013 09:46PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Sinister manipulation? That's a bit of an exaggeration for some psychological tricks, most of which will only work in certain cases for a certain subset of women. You're not giving women a lot of credit IMO.

I'm referring to the levels the likes of that Balaclava guy would stoop - the extreme PUA stuff.

Everyone tries to manipulate everyone else in some way, some people are just more conscious about it than others

Yeh I said that, but that there's a scale.

Daveysil15 · 19-12-2013 10:24PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Doesn't that go against your earlier assertion that only young people are easily manipulated and they grow out of it? So PUA "gurus" and their ilk are basically like overgrown teenagers that never grew up? All sounds a bit "Lord of the Flies" to me tbh.

In order for PUA to work Dave, the woman has to be incredibly naive. In order for a man to believe PUA techniques work, HE has to be incredibly naive. It's no more effective than the blind leading the blind and that's why it's not as black and white as your ONS scenario.

It depends on the scale of it. There's the extreme end of PUA, and then there's the less sinister stuff. Did you seen the video I posted earlier? The guy was in his late 20's I'd say, as were the women he was approaching. But they were fairly harmless daytime approaches. Nothing really manipulative in it that I can see anyway.

I was going by your teenagers scenario earlier and how they may be more susceptible to it, but most of the videos I've see on this stuff, the guys aren't exactly that young.

So are you saying a naïve woman will sleep with a PUA even if she doesn't find him attractive, just because he used some pseudo science crap? No there still needs to be attraction there. If you throw alcohol into the mix then the PUA becomes even less relevant. Some people can't even remember half the shyte that happened on a night out, nevermind what was said.

beks101 · 19-12-2013 10:34PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

So are you saying a naïve woman will sleep with a PUA even if she doesn't find him attractive, just because he used some pseudo science crap? No there still needs to be attraction there. If you throw alcohol into the mix then the PUA becomes even less relevant. Some people can't even remember half the shyte that happened on a night out, nevermind what was said.

Attraction tends to be a more encompassing thing to many women than men though. For example, you'll meet an average looking bloke and instead of an immediate "WOULD" or "DEFINITELY NOT", you're somewhat open to persuasion.

The bargaining tools tend to be confidence, charm, sense of humour, emotional intelligence, charisma, and apparent interest in the woman in question. All of which are manipulated and cultivated in an artificial way by these PUA masters we're talking about, as a way of teaching their students how to "fast track" their way into a one night stand.

Daveysil15 · 19-12-2013 11:03PM

beks101 wrote: »

Attraction tends to be a more encompassing thing to many women than men though. For example, you'll meet an average looking bloke and instead of an immediate "WOULD" or "DEFINITELY NOT", you're somewhat open to persuasion.

The bargaining tools tend to be confidence, charm, sense of humour, emotional intelligence, charisma, and apparent interest in the woman in question. All of which are manipulated and cultivated in an artificial way by these PUA masters we're talking about, as a way of teaching their students how to "fast track" their way into a one night stand.

Yeah I understand there's more to attraction than looks, but I keep going back to the 'want'. The PUA is not forcing the woman, she can make her own decision. And as I said, if you throw alcohol into the mix, these silly negging techniques and opinion openers don't hold much weight IMO.

All of the things you listed there: the confidence and charm etc, a guy, even a decent guy can have all those things without been a PUA, so how does a woman differentiate if both guys are exhibiting the same characteristics? When you meet someone, whether its a ONS or something more serious, you're taking a chance. There's always an element of risk because you don't truly know the person.

Czarcasm · 19-12-2013 11:37PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

It depends on the scale of it. There's the extreme end of PUA, and then there's the less sinister stuff. Did you seen the video I posted earlier? The guy was in his late 20's I'd say, as were the women he was approaching. But they were fairly harmless daytime approaches. Nothing really manipulative in it that I can see anyway.

I was going by your teenagers scenario earlier and how they may be more susceptible to it, but most of the videos I've see on this stuff, the guys aren't exactly that young.

The guys aren't that young Dave, but the girls they were "approaching" were. Like I said earlier in the thread, these guys target college age girls usually between 18 - 25, and yes, a lot of them are immature and as beks points out they'd be more open to persuasion (a point I've certainly noticed, I don't know if anyone else has, but chuggers are getting better looking and the lads are able to hold a girls attention longer, doesn't so much seem to work for attractive female chuggers though, everyone seems to pass them by!).

But the thing their, erm, "students" seem to miss, is that even in those "harmless" daytime approaches (I'll be honest Dave I don't think I watched your video, but the one of the nose picker intimidating the tourist was a good example of what NOT to do!), 9 times out of 10, it doesn't work, yet they count getting a phone number as a "success".

Mate of mine was over in NY and I'd to laugh because she said guys over there seem so different to Irish guys in that they'd approach and talk to her and they'd take her phone number, and then they'd move off, but over here she said they only approach to ask are her boobs real and they can be very letchy and if she doesn't go off with them she's a stuck up bitch, etc.

I figure what she was witnessing was the typical American PUA where their stats are more important to them than actually taking a girl home! If that theory sounds way out, just look at how American sports are all about player stats, whether it be American football, baseball, basketball or ice hockey. Americans do like their stats, and THAT'S why you'll hear the phrase "It's a numbers game" bandied about in PUA circles. That's why I asked another poster earlier to quantify what they meant by success in terms of "anything from a kiss to sexual intercourse".

They can't, PUA's purposely use vague definitions of "success", because most of the time they're doing well if they get a kiss or a phone number.

So are you saying a naïve woman will sleep with a PUA even if she doesn't find him attractive, just because he used some pseudo science crap? No there still needs to be attraction there. If you throw alcohol into the mix then the PUA becomes even less relevant. Some people can't even remember half the shyte that happened on a night out, nevermind what was said.

Yes Dave, they will, but the number of women that will fall for the PUA guff are statistically insignificant in terms of a population like Ireland, never mind the States, where this stuff originates from.

People may not remember what was said or done, but if the PUA guy is sober and the girl is drunk, well, where was the challenge in that really? Yet these are considered "successful approaches" by PUA guys!

Bolderdash · 19-12-2013 11:45PM

It's fairly shocking how effective some PUA advice can be. I reckon there are a lot of people who just don't like the idea that an average guy can learn to be really successful with women.

Something about that idea hits a nerve imo, it messes with their beliefs about the world.

Bolderdash · 19-12-2013 11:52PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I wouldn't say its shocking, it makes sense in a way. The issue I have with it is it's manipulative. I'd feel very slimy using techniques like that just to sleep with someone.

Also, define 'average' guy.

Average height, average looks etc.. nothing special about him.

Who says its just to sleep with a girl, it could be to have a relationship too.

seenitall · 20-12-2013 12:03AM

Bolderdash wrote: »

It's fairly shocking how effective some PUA advice can be. I reckon there are a lot of people who just don't like the idea that an average guy can learn to be really successful with women.

Something about that idea hits a nerve imo, it messes with their beliefs about the world.

LOL. The only thing that idea hits is the funny bone (no pun intended:D), it's an absolutely harmless little fantasy when it comes to all women with half a brain. But you're welcome to enjoy it if it floats your boat.

You sound awful familiar btw. Let me guess, we've already encountered you on this thread..?

20-12-2013 12:13AM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

It seems like thats something people want to believe as it threatens their belief system.

I heard something very similar from another poster.

Bolderdash wrote: »

Something about that idea hits a nerve imo, it messes with their beliefs about the world.

You're 'both' wrong.

Czarcasm · 20-12-2013 12:40AM

Bolderdash wrote: »

It's fairly shocking how effective some PUA advice can be. I reckon there are a lot of people who just don't like the idea that an average guy can learn to be really successful with women.

It actually WOULD be shocking if PUA was any way effective, but it's not really, unless your idea of effective is a 90% failure rate. I guess if your success rate is 0%, then even a whiff of anything above that is considered effective, hence 10% is probably considered unbelievable! :pac:

You can't learn to be successful when dealing with people, unless you use some incredibly vague definition of success, which is exactly what PUA is all about. It's like the gambler on the horses that brags about his "big wins", but you'll never hear about his losses.

Something about that idea hits a nerve imo, it messes with their beliefs about the world.

PUA ideology is only a minority sub-culture in a much bigger world, and much like religion, it offers you a perspective of the world that resonates with what you already believe about the world. It doesn't mess with your beliefs, it actually feeds on them and feeds into them.

The horrible thing about it is that you can't see how they need you more than you need them, and you'd only find that out if you talked to more people rather than settling for being a bottom feeder in society.

Legs.Eleven · 20-12-2013 01:21AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Do you actually not realise how creepy this sounds?

Every time I see your name, this song comes to mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVHdUkMJdk

Sorry, I've had a few glasses of wine and felt you should know....

20-12-2013 07:19AM

Bolderdash wrote: »

It's fairly shocking how effective some PUA advice can be. I reckon there are a lot of people who just don't like the idea that an average guy can learn to be really successful with women.

Something about that idea hits a nerve imo, it messes with their beliefs about the world.

seenitall wrote: »

LOL. The only thing that idea hits is the funny bone (no pun intended:D), it's an absolutely harmless little fantasy when it comes to all women with half a brain. But you're welcome to enjoy it if it floats your boat.

You sound awful familiar btw. Let me guess, we've already encountered you on this thread..?

Yeah yeah, it would never work on you. When I first heard of it I looked at a couple of the "techniques" and for a laugh thought I'd see what happened when used it on female friends and I was actually disappointed in their reactions. I told them pretty quickly I was dicking about and they were more annoyed at their reactions than at my winding them up. Weird to think where it could've led to.

Czarcasm · 20-12-2013 09:10AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah yeah, it would never work on you. When I first heard of it I looked at a couple of the "techniques" and for a laugh thought I'd see what happened when used it on female friends and I was actually disappointed in their reactions. I told them pretty quickly I was dicking about and they were more annoyed at their reactions than at my winding them up. Weird to think where it could've led to.

I think Button we all know people it'd work on, but does that mean we should? It's easy picking the low hanging fruit, particularly if you're a dick that's not too interested in challenging yourself (not you personally, but the kind of guys that'd think there's "no harm" in this crap).

Bolderdash · 20-12-2013 09:45AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think Button we all know people it'd work on, but does that mean we should? It's easy picking the low hanging fruit, particularly if you're a dick that's not too interested in challenging yourself (not you personally, but the kind of guys that'd think there's "no harm" in this crap).

I think that's something you want to believe. It's wild speculation from someone who has never put this in practice. From first hand experience I've improved with pretty much all types of women after taking on board PUA advice, and probably improved the most with intelligent , confident women.

osarusan · 20-12-2013 09:53AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think Button we all know people it'd work on, but does that mean we should? It's easy picking the low hanging fruit, particularly if you're a dick that's not too interested in challenging yourself (not you personally, but the kind of guys that'd think there's "no harm" in this crap).

In the context of advocating honesty, openness, and genuine behaviour when meeting women, what exactly does 'challenging yourself' mean?

20-12-2013 10:13AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think Button we all know people it'd work on, but does that mean we should? It's easy picking the low hanging fruit, particularly if you're a dick that's not too interested in challenging yourself (not you personally, but the kind of guys that'd think there's "no harm" in this crap).

That's what I thought and that's why I did it twice. I was about 19 and tried with a 17 year old, then with a 21 year old. It worked better on the 21 year old who had never shown me any kind of romantic interest (nor I her) and she was and is the last person I thought would fall for it. I see it working for people all the time too and I'm just disappointed that it does work but I don't really blame people for doing it.
Personally I don't plan on doing it for real (though at this stage I don't think anyone would blame me :pac: ). Numerous girls have given me advice which, if it was coming from people on this thread, would be called out as being PUA techniques, they just don't realise it.

The Game By Neil strauss

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