The Game By Neil strauss

Bolderdash

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Win win if the woman only wants sex.

What if the woman was lead to believe there'd be more out of it. By using these techniques, you're giving the wrong impression.

You don't need to tell me women love sex as I am one but when I was in my late teens, early 20s, I almost always hoped something more would come out of sleeping with a guy. I wanted a relationship and believed sleeping with a guy would lead to that. I wasn't anymore naive than any other woman my age. Those magazines in Cosmo give advice to women to find a man for a relationship, not just sex. That perhaps shows you the difference in our psyche.


I also believe many young men want to meet a woman for a relationship too so might use this in the hopes that they'll get one. This might get a woman into bed but not much else as the man can't engage with a woman beyond a script.

What scripts? The general advice given is about being natural.

If you want more than sex then its your responsibility to make that known. If the guy didn't say he wanted a relationship then you can't expect one.

Legs.Eleven

What scripts? The general advice given is about being natural.

Ah come on! If that's all it was the book would simply say, "Be natural" aka "Be yourself". I've read a lot about it now the past week and much of it is scripted. The books, videos etc. are basically telling the guy what to do.

If you want more than sex then its your responsibility to make that known. If the guy didn't say he wanted a relationship then you can't expect one.

True but my point is, often what a man and woman want out of a meeting is different. By using a lot of the PUA techniques, you're making someone believe you want more knowing that's often what a woman of that age wants (the creators of these techniques aren't stupid). If I used my womanly charms to make a man believe that I wanted a ONS when all I wanted was free drinks, would that be fair? It's the same idea as far as I can see.

Obviously personal responsibility comes into it, of course but I'm questioning the fairness of it. I don't think a lot of the PUA techniques are fair just as I don't think a woman making a man believe she fancies him when all she wants are free drinks is fair either but obviously some people would think if the person was stupid enough to fall for it then they deserve it. Fair enough. I just don't think it's very nice.


Tbh, this doesn't affect me, I'd never fall for this and if this is how people want to live their lives, so be it. I'm simply questioning the fairness of a lot of it (fairness is very important to me).

Crann na Beatha

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seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

Keep dreaming, sunshine, keep dreaming.

I've never been successfully PUA'd and I never will be, but of course saying that on this thread is like a red rag to a bull for some of you types who think that women are puzzles to be solved and all of one mind (a stoopid one ).

If you didn't know the "tricks" beforehand you might be surprised.

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

If you didn't know the "tricks" beforehand you might be surprised.

Heh, I'm sure your "tricks" are a real treasure trove, hon.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

Heh, I'm sure your "tricks" are a real treasure trove, hon.

Yeah if you read what I said you'd see they're not my "tricks" and I don't actually use them other than out of idle curiosity so I don't think there's any need for the condescension.

Bolderdash

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Ah come on! If that's all it was the book would simply say, "Be natural" aka "Be yourself". I've read a lot about it now the past week and much of it is scripted. The books, videos etc. are basically telling the guy what to do.




True but my point is, often what a man and woman want out of a meeting is different. By using a lot of the PUA techniques, you're making someone believe you want more knowing that's often what a woman of that age wants (the creators of these techniques aren't stupid). If I used my womanly charms to make a man believe that I wanted a ONS when all I wanted was free drinks, would that be fair? It's the same idea as far as I can see.

Obviously personal responsibility comes into it, of course but I'm questioning the fairness of it. I don't think a lot of the PUA techniques are fair just as I don't think a woman making a man believe she fancies him when all she wants are free drinks is fair either but obviously some people would think if the person was stupid enough to fall for it then they deserve it. Fair enough. I just don't think it's very nice.


Tbh, this doesn't affect me, I'd never fall for this and if this is how people want to live their lives, so be it. I'm simply questioning the fairness of a lot of it (fairness is very important to me).

PUA doesn't teach men to trick women into thinking they want more. It actually teaches to be honest about your intentions. The focus is on how to actually be more attractive.

Whenever I chat up women I make it known I don't do monogomy ( if thats the case at that time).

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah if you read what I said you'd see they're not my "tricks" and I don't actually use them other than out of idle curiosity so I don't think there's any need for the condescension.

Blimey, you're very easily condescended to, aren't you?

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Buttonftw. Please carry on.

DipStick McSwindler

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DipStick McSwindler

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DipStick McSwindler

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Bolderdash

Bolderdash wrote: »

Then PUA doesn't necessarily change your personality, it just lowers your inhibitions in a healthier drug free way.

h

It's not that simple though.

What you've evangelised as Bolderdash/Vitaliorange is projection of a certain image that women find more attractive. Nothing wrong with that. Except you talk about it like you're talking about training a talking parrot, who in turn is trying to get a dog to sit up and beg on command. It's very dehumanising and treats women like a herd of sheep that can be corralled by the right collie.

It lowers inhibitions by taking away the personal aspect of failure -Hey! It's not you, it's just your approach! Try again! Try more! - but it also teaches manipulative tricks that belittle women and lowers their self confidence in order to get sex. And, in my opinion it belittles the men themselves by teaching them to see women as targets.

You're so caught up in it you don't even see how you come across.

DipStick McSwindler

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Bolderdash

Candie wrote: »

h

It's not that simple though.

What you've evangelised as Bolderdash/Vitaliorange is projection of a certain image that women find more attractive. Nothing wrong with that. Except you talk about it like you're talking about training a talking parrot, who in turn is trying to get a dog to sit up and beg on command. It's very dehumanising and treats women like a herd of sheep that can be corralled by the right collie.

It lowers inhibitions by taking away the personal aspect of failure -Hey! It's not you, it's just your approach! Try again! Try more! - but it also teaches manipulative tricks that belittle women and lowers their self confidence in order to get sex. And, in my opinion it belittles the men themselves by teaching them to see women as targets.

You're so caught up in it you don't even see how you come across.

What tricks do you find belittling?

For example do you find it belittling for a guy to realize that his chances of attracting a woman diminish the longer he stands while talking to seated women?

Is it belittling to realise you should give attention to everyone in a group?

Is it belittling to to remove nervous laughter and be comfortable with silence?

Wibbs

Czarcasm wrote: »

If the general perception of PUA was that it could be seen as ANY way beneficial to society, it would have gained far more popularity by now.

Actually on this point it's incredibly popular online with a lot of young men getting into it to some degree or other and big money being made from it. Google it and see the sheer volume of stuff that comes up. There is clearly a real need among a noticeable percentage of the male demographic being served by this stuff.

Culturally it seems to be daftly popular in the US. MTV and others have even had shows based around it. There does seem to be a bit of a minor gender schism going on in the US. The trend for men to avoid or delay marriage one example of it* The Men Going Their Own Way movement and other centered stuff seems to be gaining some legs. Yes it's still a small enough percentage of the overall, but the trend is up over the last decade. There seems to be a bit of an undercurrent of inter gender antagonism going on.

Maybe this is why PUA, particularly what I'd call the angry form of it is so popular in certain areas of that culture? And by god is it ever angry. Some popular websites/blogs in the "manosphere"(oh yep) can be real WTF reading material at times, a lot of times and I'd hardly be a card carrying blanket defender of US style women's studies second wave feminism(or are we up to the third wave yet, I've lost track). I'd be a Camille Paglia type of man myself, though I do read the other wackier stuff for the lulz.

I could see why Angry PUA gained legs and may actually work in such an environment. And of course how that "style" would fall flat on it's arse in other cultures, including our own. I don't mean the "approaching" stuff, after all you can't catch fish with your bait in the boat, you do have to engage with people/women. I'm talking about more the negging and "displaying higher value" "alpha/beta" type stuff. On the latter Alpha thing, I have noticed a certain popularity and belief in the alpha notion pertaining to people in US culture. Hell you even see it in areas like dog training where US based trainers are much more likely to believe in dominance theory in canids. Observe if you will the dog whisperer. Even when solid science going back decades has completely disproven alpha/dominance in canids, both domestic and wild.






*TBH if I was an American bloke I'd be very wary of marriage and the results of a possible(near 50% chance) "no fault" divorce(75% of which are sought by women), where I'd stand to lose the lot. I recall one quote from an American guy who said "do you wanna feel what it's like to be married and then divorced? Walk up to a random woman with kids on the street and hand them the keys to your house". Lots of cynicism goin on.

agriman27

In my personal experience, one of the most crucial aspects of attracting women is your social status, you have to be seen to belong to a group and be accepted socially. That's very important,if you float around like I used to do women avoid you like the plague. I think the PUA techniques are useless if your out lookin for a wife. I have learned there is no point in acting, even if you really fancy them, just be yourself at all times. A lot of women pretend to be so out there and cool when out at night but in reality they have pretty simple wee lives just like us lads:pac:

DipStick McSwindler

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agriman27

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Nightclubs are a whole different ballgame to normal interactions such as through friends, or approaching on the street. Many different factors are in place.

Kinda the same thing though you have along and be accepted to some crowd. Even approaching in the street if your more than likely gonna creep the girl out if your alone, same anywhere not just nightclubs

Bolderdash

agriman27 wrote: »

Kinda the same thing though you have along and be accepted to some crowd. Even approaching in the street if your more than likely gonna creep the girl out if your alone, same anywhere not just nightclubs

Not in my experience. Be friendly, relaxed and smile and I find women don't get creeped out. They usually find it quite flattering imo.

agriman27

Bolderdash wrote: »

Not in my experience. Be friendly, relaxed and smile and I find women don't get creeped out. They usually find it quite flattering imo.

Interesting, I don't usually encounter many women day to day in my line of work. Weekend is almost my only point of contact:pac:.

DipStick McSwindler

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seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

Blimey, you're very easily condescended to, aren't you?

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Buttonftw. Please carry on.

I've been given out to for ending sentences with pet names before, apparently it's condescending to women and I thought you were playing up to that.

We cool?

Czarcasm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually on this point it's incredibly popular online with a lot of young men getting into it to some degree or other and big money being made from it. Google it and see the sheer volume of stuff that comes up. There is clearly a real need among a noticeable percentage of the male demographic being served by this stuff.

Ahh Wibbs you know better than that - "confirmation bias"? If I google "porn", look at the sheer amount of stuff that turns up, does that mean there's a need for it, or is it more likely to mean that there's a demand for it?

Poor IrishFeeney there is at pains to point out that it's just the way this stuff is marketed that people have an issue with, but like any sub-culture, most people aren't aware of it unless they're actively searching for what piques their interest (I knew that word sounded familiar - Piquerism, dare you google that one), and PUA fulfils that need for men who feel they have no "luck" with women.

The reason there are so many different methods is because it's like dieting advice for women - the Atkins diet might not resonate with some women, whereas the Air Diet (seriously!) espoused by celebrities like Madonna might just do the trick!

I've read and followed the PUA stuff for a while now (finally finished that "Attraction Code" book Vitaliorange recommended earlier, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone tbh!), and I've read some of the Return of Kings stuff (It's like the very definition of the Angry PUA stuff you mentioned earlier), and again, it probably wouldn't resonate with IrishFeeney, but there's plenty of men it would, and that's why I personally have an issue with the whole PUA ideology -

It's manipulating men's insecurities and extracting money from them under false pretences to sell them something they don't actually need, but rather they want. It's exploitation. These men then go and use these techniques to exploit women for their own personal gain.

So far most of this thread has been about "the approach", but what consideration is given to the aftermath, and having seen the long term (20 years thereabouts) effects of this PUA stuff on both men and women, it does far more damage than, well, I can't actually see any good in it tbh. There are far more effective and professional methods to help these men overcome their insecurities. They're just not as, erm, "cool" as the PUA "lifestyle".

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been given out to for ending sentences with pet names before, apparently it's condescending to women and I thought you were playing up to that.

We cool?

There you go, a simple misunderstanding, so. Less generalising about either women or men, more success with either gender.

We cool. :cool:

DipStick McSwindler

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Bolderdash

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh Wibbs you know better than that - "confirmation bias"? If I google "porn", look at the sheer amount of stuff that turns up, does that mean there's a need for it, or is it more likely to mean that there's a demand for it?

Poor IrishFeeney there is at pains to point out that it's just the way this stuff is marketed that people have an issue with, but like any sub-culture, most people aren't aware of it unless they're actively searching for what piques their interest (I knew that word sounded familiar - Piquerism, dare you google that one), and PUA fulfils that need for men who feel they have no "luck" with women.

The reason there are so many different methods is because it's like dieting advice for women - the Atkins diet might not resonate with some women, whereas the Air Diet (seriously!) espoused by celebrities like Madonna might just do the trick!

I've read and followed the PUA stuff for a while now (finally finished that "Attraction Code" book Vitaliorange recommended earlier, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone tbh!), and I've read some of the Return of Kings stuff (It's like the very definition of the Angry PUA stuff you mentioned earlier), and again, it probably wouldn't resonate with IrishFeeney, but there's plenty of men it would, and that's why I personally have an issue with the whole PUA ideology -

It's manipulating men's insecurities and extracting money from them under false pretences to sell them something they don't actually need, but rather they want. It's exploitation. These men then go and use these techniques to exploit women for their own personal gain.

So far most of this thread has been about "the approach", but what consideration is given to the aftermath, and having seen the long term (20 years thereabouts) effects of this PUA stuff on both men and women, it does far more damage than, well, I can't actually see any good in it tbh. There are far more effective and professional methods to help these men overcome their insecurities. They're just not as, erm, "cool" as the PUA "lifestyle".

PUA has only been semi mainstream since 2005 when the game was released. How in the name of god have you seen 20 years of PUA effects?

old hippy

Bolderdash wrote: »

PUA has only been semi mainstream since 2005 when the game was released. How in the name of god have you seen 20 years of PUA effects?

Because he's so smooth linear time just bounces right off him, dang it

Czarcasm

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

The last point bolded up top, Immature mind games that only work on certain people is completely and utterly wrong.

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

I agree with most of this except the part about porn. Oh dear god how wrong you are about the porn!

IrishFeeney doth protest too much methinks

One other thing I also disagree with is the aftermath. It depends entirely on the context in which it is used and on the men themselves. In my own case ive found nothing but be improvements in myself and character since I researched the natural methods. Although it did lead me into the entire self help world which also has a part to play. I say the genuine methods can be very helpful, some of which I learned right here in dublin. The rest is garbage and should be disacarded. Its all about finding whats right for you. As the oul saying goes somewhat like

"Find that which works for you and discard what does not"

Yeah but see you come across a fair bit more balanced than some of the utter, well, there's no nice way to say "complete numbskulls" that buy into this stuff hook, line and sinker, and can't tell the difference between what to most of us would be just common sense, and what we would disregard as complete outright and obvious manipulation.

Bolderdash wrote: »

PUA has only been semi mainstream since 2005 when the game was released. How in the name of god have you seen 20 years of PUA effects?

"Semi mainstream"? How vague a term is that?

PUA was around before my arse was as big as a shirt button, and I'm 37 now, only back then it wasn't called PUA, but you could read about the "lifestyle" and how to appear attractive to women in the likes of Playboy and so on. It's never been even close to being mainstream as most guys just looked at the pictures rather than read the articles! :pac:

The internet just like most things, brought PUA to a wider audience, and there were a few smarter people that refined, reformed, repackaged a couple of concepts, polished it up and gave it a glossy coat of sexualised intellectualism, then monetized and marketed their ideas because they recognised there was a demand for it.

Bolderdash

Czarcasm wrote: »

IrishFeeney doth protest too much methinks





Yeah but see you come across a fair bit more balanced than some of the utter, well, there's no nice way to say "complete numbskulls" that buy into this stuff hook, line and sinker, and can't tell the difference between what to most of us would be just common sense, and what we would disregard as complete outright and obvious manipulation.





"Semi mainstream"? How vague a term is that?

PUA was around before my arse was as big as a shirt button, and I'm 37 now, only back then it wasn't called PUA, but you could read about the "lifestyle" and how to appear attractive to women in the likes of Playboy and so on. It's never been even close to being mainstream as most guys just looked at the pictures rather than read the articles! :pac:

The internet just like most things, brought PUA to a wider audience, and there were a few smarter people that refined, reformed, repackaged a couple of concepts, polished it up and gave it a glossy coat of sexualised intellectualism, then monetized and marketed their ideas because they recognised there was a demand for it.

Ok so in essence that was nonsense, playboy articles aren't PUA. PUA has only really been around for 10 years.

The fact you put the two in the same bracket speaks volumes and explains your complete misunderstanding of PUA.

Crann na Beatha

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