Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

patrickobrien · 08-12-2013 10:41PM

awec wrote: »

If you pulled across the cycle lane then you are completely in the wrong. If a cyclist had to slam on the breaks because you cut across his lane then that's on you.

Dead right he was in the wrong I don't blame the poor cyclist. I am a cyclist in Dublin and I have lost count of the amount of times I have been knocked off my bike by twits driving cars.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:43PM

penguin88 wrote: »

The previous poster complained about being cut up, which to me suggests an overtaking maneuver following by a left turn across the vehicle being overtaken so as to impede them. If an overtaking maneuver cannot be completed safely before turning left then it would be best to wait until the first vehicle has cleared the junction/turn.

Lots of people complain about being cut up when in actual fact the avoiding action usually consists of this though I take your point on board

Kurtosis · 08-12-2013 10:45PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

If you aren't carrying ID and become subject of a FPN I believe the Garda is allowed to detain you until verification of your identity is completed, some people think that detaining the cycle may be sufficient and making the cyclist walk I'm open to either being applied as long as it is applied.

If cyclists find it too much of an imposition on their lifestyles then in the absence of cycling licenses I'd suggest you either stay law abiding or carry ID

This isn't unique to FPNs for cyclists though. If a garda doubts the veracity of the details being provided when issuing a fine/summons etc then can't they detain the subject until such details can be verified? None of this is specific to cyclists or FPNs.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:51PM

penguin88 wrote: »

This isn't unique to FPNs for cyclists though. If a garda doubts the veracity of the details being provided when issuing a fine/summons etc then can't they detain the subject until such details can be verified? None of this is specific to cyclists or FPNs.

There is a requirement to carry your driving license with you whilst driving a car, so if you are stopped and don't have a license with you, then you are actually infringing two acts, I have seen cars taken off of drivers at night for that offence ( I know because the driver has had to flag me down to take them home ) however Jawgap correctly thinks that he will be under no obligation to carry ID however the lack of it could well lead to much greater inconvenience

cython · 08-12-2013 10:58PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

There is a requirement to carry your driving license with you whilst driving a car, so if you are stopped and don't have a license with you, then you are actually infringing two acts, I have seen cars taken off of drivers at night for that offence ( I know because the driver has had to flag me down to take them home ) however Jawgap correctly thinks that he will be under no obligation to carry ID however the lack of it could well lead to much greater inconvenience

There is a requirement to have your license with you while driving alright, but there is also what is known as the real world, and the failings of Irish systems which means that there are several times when you all but have to drive without your license on your person, e.g. if you have applied for a renewal, at which point you surrender your old one, and wait to be sent the new one. Now you should have a receipt and can hope that covers you, but you are still without your license, and it is not realistic to stay off the road for the weeks that it may take to receive the new license.

Kurtosis · 08-12-2013 11:01PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

There is a requirement to carry your driving license with you whilst driving a car, so if you are stopped and don't have a license with you, then you are actually infringing two acts, I have seen cars taken off of drivers at night for that offence ( I know because the driver has had to flag me down to take them home ) however Jawgap correctly thinks that he will be under no obligation to carry ID however the lack of it could well lead to much greater inconvenience

Sure, it's more analogous to a fine/summons being issued to pedestrians. As I said, nothing new, if a garda doubts the veracity of details provided they can take further action.

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 11:03PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

If you aren't carrying ID and become subject of a FPN I believe the Garda is allowed to detain you until verification of your identity is completed, some people think that detaining the cycle may be sufficient and making the cyclist walk I'm open to either being applied as long as it is applied.

If cyclists find it too much of an imposition on their lifestyles then in the absence of cycling licenses I'd suggest you either stay law abiding or carry ID

If you know any Guards ask them what their sergeant would say about bringing someone in to detain them for failing to provide id for a cycling FPN! Never mind what sergeant might say for bringing in a minor!

The fact that even the RSA aren't even looking for cycling licences should tell you all you need to know about that idea.

We'll be compelled to wear helmets and hi-viz before that comes in.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 11:08PM

cython wrote: »

There is a requirement to have your license with you while driving alright, but there is also what is known as the real world, and the failings of Irish systems which means that there are several times when you all but have to drive without your license on your person, e.g. if you have applied for a renewal, at which point you surrender your old one, and wait to be sent the new one. Now you should have a receipt and can hope that covers you, but you are still without your license, and it is not realistic to stay off the road for the weeks that it may take to receive the new license.

Once every 10 years for most people, I believe that you are allowed to produce the receipt as verification but I stand to be corrected

CramCycle · 09-12-2013 01:23AM

Healy Rae Permit Holder wrote: »

I was intending of taking the junction wide to allow space for the cyclist.

Still in the wrong.

Jester252 wrote: »

If your a cyclist and don't have a driving licence you can even say your a competent road user.

Much like those with a lot to license or a provisional.

Jester252 wrote: »

In order to pass the driving test you must first pass a test on the ROTR i.e the theory test, in order to pass this test you must study the ROTR. It is at some prove that the road user has some knowledge of the ROTR.

Only in the last 15 years ( less actually but I did not have to do one).

Spook_ie wrote: »

A few FPNs of €250 would put manners on a lot of cyclists of course if you had licenses and penalty points you could get a €50 fine and a point or two instead but cyclists in general don't want licenses

Correct, fine those who cause the most death and injury the most :pac: how about every time a law that could result in another road users death the guilty party had their vehicle siezed, crushed and the offender fined 2500euro. None of this pushy footing around. Every time a car or cyclists does something stupid I want a punishment that will tell other road users not to be such twats.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Assuming that reply is referring to the costs of implicating a licensing system, is exactly why I reckon an FPN should be far in excess of the fine imposed on motorists for speeding etc. as a lot of cyclists like to highlight the disparity between motorist fines and FPNs as a facet of their arguments to reduce the cost of FPNs

Personally I think the fine should reflect the potential cost if there was an accident due to the law breakers actions. Who gives a **** about their mode of transport.

Healy Rae Permit Holder · 09-12-2013 01:36AM

So the cyclist that was in the left only lane that i was in was correct to keep cycling straight on even though it was a left only lane?
One would assume he knows the rules of the road and if he wanted to cycle straight on he should be in that lane.

chopper6 · 09-12-2013 01:39AM

Every day I see cyclists breaking red lights, cycling on the pavement or travelling the wrong way up streets.

They seem to have this notion that because they're being 'green' the rules of the road just don't apply to them.

wil · 09-12-2013 03:45AM

chopper6 wrote: »

Every day I see motorists breaking red lights, driving on the pavement or travelling the wrong way up streets.

They seem to have this notion that because they're in cars and no Gardai around the rules of the road just don't apply to them.

rebalanced your post

Spook_ie · 09-12-2013 05:52AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Still in the wrong.

<snipped>
Correct, fine those who cause the most death and injury the most :pac: how about every time a law that could result in another road users death the guilty party had their vehicle siezed, crushed and the offender fined 2500euro. None of this pushy footing around. Every time a car or cyclists does something stupid I want a punishment that will tell other road users not to be such twats.

Personally I think the fine should reflect the potential cost if there was an accident due to the law breakers actions. Who gives a **** about their mode of transport.

Why not, there is still as much potential for a cyclist to kill someone, however, (on the basis that there would still be a disparity in punishments), because the driver has a license that can be endorsed that the cyclist doesn't. You would still need a greater punishment for cyclists, perhaps hanging by the neck from the nearest lampost might suffice

Or are you suggesting that penalty points for motorists be eased in relation to several traffic violations, so that the FPNs were the same for cyclists as motorists?

seamus · 09-12-2013 06:21AM

Spook_ie wrote: »

See SI332/2012

I gather the cyclist was already in front before the turn, so this doesn't apply in this case.

Jester252 wrote: »

Can believe that so many cyclist would get butt hurt at the taught of doing a test on the rules of the road. I'm out

Would you be happy as a pedestrian if you were asked to do a rules of the road test before you were allowed to walk on a road? Pedestrians account for a huge number of fatalities on our roads, it seems logical that they should have to pass a test before being allowed to mix with moving traffic.

Why not, there is still as much potential for a cyclist to kill someone, however, (on the basis that there would still be a disparity in punishments), because the driver has a license that can be endorsed that the cyclist doesn't. You would still need a greater punishment for cyclists, perhaps hanging by the neck from the nearest lampost might suffice

Of course, the potential for a cyclist to kill someone is minimal, especially when compared to any vehicle.

At the end of the day, enforcement becomes the issue. Unless you're willing to put 1,000 Gardai on the streets of Dublin doing nothing but monitoring cyclists, then all the new laws you put in place will be ignored just like the old ones.

And everyone knows that would be a monumental waste of resources because the actual impact on the roads of more cyclists is minimal.

Spook_ie · 09-12-2013 06:49AM

seamus wrote: »

I gather the cyclist was already in front before the turn, so this doesn't apply in this case.
<snipped>b

Actually I gather he was overtaking a vehicle on the left, turning left, in a lane marked for turning left

seamus · 09-12-2013 07:24AM

@Spook_ie

Healy Rae Permit Holder wrote: »

It depends on the layout of the road, i was driving down Dyke Parade and had entered the lane for bachelors quay, there was a cyclist to my left of me, the lights were red and the cyclist was quicker to react and went to cycle on straight instead of turning left, i nearly ran him over had to stop, he should have been to the right of me since he was continuing on Dyke Parade, he was poorly lit too, what would the law be if i had mowed him down that morning?

Unless the cyclist was behind him at the lights, then that S.I. doesn't apply.

CramCycle · 09-12-2013 08:14AM

Healy Rae Permit Holder wrote: »

So the cyclist that was in the left only lane that i was in was correct to keep cycling straight on even though it was a left only lane?
One would assume he knows the rules of the road and if he wanted to cycle straight on he should be in that lane.

I thought it was a left or straight on lane.

chopper6 wrote: »

Every day I see cyclists breaking red lights, cycling on the pavement or travelling the wrong way up streets.

I 9 nice had a motorist jump out of his van to start a fight with me because I stopped when the traffic lights turned red. He claimed I done it to annoy him. Believe me it's the people not the mode of transport that are the problem.

Spook_ie wrote: »

....

I think you misread my post.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Actually I gather he was overtaking a vehicle on the left, turning left, in a lane marked for turning left

No one's clarified the lane but this is what was wrong with his maneuver.

MJ23 · 09-12-2013 10:30AM

Cyclists on footpaths. Should have the bike confiscated and an on the spot fine. There should also be some sort of licence needed too.
When you meet a cyclist on the footpath, take up as much room as you can. Fcuking idiots.

Jawgap · 09-12-2013 10:35AM

MJ23 wrote: »

Cyclists on footpaths. Should have the bike confiscated and an on the spot fine. There should also be some sort of licence needed too.
When you meet a cyclist on the footpath, take up as much room as you can. Fcuking idiots.

You mean, like, do star jumps in front of them.......

What if the cyvclist is a seven year old kid - should their bike be whipped away from them?

I don't think people should be allowed cycle on the footpath, and they should be given an FPN when caught - but really in the overall scheme of things, it's not that big a deal. If the Guards have time on their hands, in Dublin at least, there's more productive things they could be doing.

Dyr · 09-12-2013 11:17AM

Jawgap wrote: »

If the Guards have time on their hands, in Dublin at least, there's more productive things they could be doing.

Thats why pedestrians should be empowered to counter the menace

Jawgap · 09-12-2013 11:24AM

Bambi wrote: »

Thats why pedestrians should be empowered to counter the menace

If pedestrians are going to be empowered to do anything then observing the bits of the traffic and road safety laws that apply to them would be a good start.

My own theory is that a lot of this is driven by driver resentment - when you're a driver you resent paying in fuel taxes alone about 3 cent for every kilometer you drive to the government; you resent that others have found a way to travel that's significantly cheaper, healthier and more fun; you resent that you are unable to summon up the modicum of self-discipline required to simply get your arse out of the metal box and on to a bike - in summary, drivers resent being slaves to something they have no need to be slaves to, and instead of doing something about it, they try and drag everyone back into 'slavery'.

......and, yes, I do drive occasionally (including about 12,000 km a year for work) but only when I have to.

keithclancy · 09-12-2013 11:26AM

The whole thinking in Ireland is just plain wrong.

People think they are 'ok' as long as they stay out of their way.

I don't feel safe cycling a bicycle in Ireland.

Here in NL I cycle everywhere.

rubadub · 09-12-2013 11:34AM

chopper6 wrote: »

Every day I see cyclists breaking red lights, cycling on the pavement or travelling the wrong way up streets.

They seem to have this notion that because they're being 'green' the rules of the road just don't apply to them.

Every day I see gardai witnessing people on bikes & on foot breaking red lights etc. And the gardai let it go, I doubt its because they think the law breakers are "green", more likely they know what the rules & laws set out to actually prevent. They don't just act the pedantic arsehole and do people on technicalities when their law breaking is often done to increase the safety of them and those around them -or else the law breaking does nothing to increase danger.

MJ23 wrote: »

When you meet a cyclist on the footpath, take up as much room as you can. Fcuking idiots.

I have seen fucking idiots doing this on Grafton street, people cycling at a slow safe pace who were, up until then, in full control, but these "protestors" now put the cyclist and others around them at risk, as they might fall off, great accomplishment!

Ask yourself "why was the law invented", because cycling at a fast pace on a narrow footpath is dangerous, their might not be much room. If you have to "take up room" its an admittance that there is probably plenty of room, and so the upholding of the precious technical law is not too really critical, the type of thing gardai do ignore. I would bet anything most of these protestors jaywalk too, and don't even acknowledge their law breaking.

keithclancy · 09-12-2013 11:51AM

rubadub wrote: »

Ask yourself "why was the law invented", because cycling at a fast pace on a narrow footpath is dangerous, their might not be much room. If you have to "take up room" its an admittance that there is probably plenty of room, and so the upholding of the precious technical law is not too really critical, the type of thing gardai do ignore. I would bet anything most of these protestors jaywalk too, and don't even acknowledge their law breaking.

Just tell them to get off the footpath.

chopper6 · 09-12-2013 12:54PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Just tell them to get off the footpath.

Push them off is a better way.

Ray Palmer · 09-12-2013 01:30PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Push them off is a better way.

What do you reckon cyclists should do if a pedestrian is in a cycle lane?

roadrunner16 · 09-12-2013 01:40PM

Cienciano wrote: »

The cyclists can go and pay some road tax before they start complaining

I cycle and drive .. and have never paid road tax in my life , argument done to death by other drivers looking for an excuse to blame cyclists. My bike dosent have a motor so I dont pay motor tax on it, The car I share with my family does and motor tax is paid on that , and if by road tax you mean money taxed and then spent on roads ? oh well then we all pay it because that money comes from general taxation.

Spook_ie · 09-12-2013 01:54PM

seamus wrote: »

@Spook_ie
Unless the cyclist was behind him at the lights, then that S.I. doesn't apply.

The cyclist was in a lane designated for left turn only, even if the SI didn't apply ( which I believe it would, as being in a left turn lane is an indication / indicator of turning left) the cyclist was still in the wrong for being in the wrong lane, traffic lanes and signage applicable to the lanes apply to cyclists as well

rubadub · 09-12-2013 01:57PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Push them off is a better way.

Yeah, like you have really done that, mr. internet tough guy :rolleyes:. If you go pushing kids & old grannies off bikes then expect to get your face kicked in, I can imagine someone beating you if you did what you suggest, while I can't imagine your initial proposed attack happening. If you do it to an person of equal size expect them to beat you, I know who's side a judge or garda would be more likely to take.

Do you trip up jaywalkers? maybe give them a few kicks when they are down to inflict the same damage as pushing someone off a bike, which is far more serious.

Cienciano wrote: »

The cyclists can go and pay some road tax before they start complaining

And pedestrians can go pay some foothpath tax before they start complaining too, another tax which does not exist.

Spook_ie · 09-12-2013 01:59PM

Jawgap wrote: »

If pedestrians are going to be empowered to do anything then observing the bits of the traffic and road safety laws that apply to them would be a good start.

My own theory is that a lot of this is driven by driver resentment - when you're a driver you resent paying in fuel taxes alone about 3 cent for every kilometer you drive to the government; you resent that others have found a way to travel that's significantly cheaper, healthier and more fun; you resent that you are unable to summon up the modicum of self-discipline required to simply get your arse out of the metal box and on to a bike - in summary, drivers resent being slaves to something they have no need to be slaves to, and instead of doing something about it, they try and drag everyone back into 'slavery'.

......and, yes, I do drive occasionally (including about 12,000 km a year for work) but only when I have to.

Pedestrians shouldn't NEED to be empowered, cyclists should be obeying the laws, end of

Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

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