Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:29PM

beauf wrote: »

That's based on the premise that studying the ROTR makes you safer on the road. How can that be, if the people most familiar with the ROTR are the ones having the most accidents.

:rolleyes:
Are you telling me that someone who has no knowledge of the ROTR is safer?
LOL

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:30PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Passing a test is not a proof of competency - it's only proof of an ability to pass tests......

Sigh.
How can you pass a test on being a competent driver without being competent?

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 09:34PM

Jester252 wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Are you telling me that someone who has no knowledge of the ROTR is safer?
LOL

Over 941,000 penalty points were issued to drivers for driving offences in 2012 - if knowledge of the RotR is the hallmark of a safe and competent driver, how come so many points are issued to drivers?

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 09:37PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Sigh.
How can you pass a test on being a competent driver without being competent?

Same way a person can nail 650 points on their leaving cert, ace their medical school exams and go on to be a crap doctor!

You can drive to pass the test, it's not "real world" driving - it's driving test driving

SV · 08-12-2013 09:38PM

Some posters should have the use of the roll eyes smiley removed. That's all I have to add really

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 09:40PM

SV wrote: »

Some posters should have the use of the roll eyes smiley removed. That's all I have to add really :rolleyes::mad:

FYP

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:41PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Over 941,000 penalty points were issued to drivers for driving offences in 2012 - if knowledge of the RotR is the hallmark of a safe and competent driver, how come so many points are issued to drivers?

If you read the thread I already answer this. Overconfidence, lapse in concentration etc.
Do you honestly thing that it is safe for you and other road user to have someone use the road without any knowledge of the ROTR? Why is it a bad thing to want road users to show that they have some knowledge of the ROTR by taking a test?

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 09:44PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Over 941,000 penalty points were issued to drivers for driving offences in 2012 - if knowledge of the RotR is the hallmark of a safe and competent driver, how come so many points are issued to drivers?

But that's 941,000 points issued to people who have taken the time to obtain a license, if points were available to give to cyclists I would expect to see just as many pro rata, so not really an argument,

EDIT Will be interesting to see how FPNs effect cyclist behavior but given the constraints of no registration and no need to carry identification I foresee a lot of people getting away with a lot of offences

beauf · 08-12-2013 09:44PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Never said anything about cyclist killing people ..

Jester252 wrote: »

...Not killing other with your lack of competency
...

Jester252 wrote: »

...The majority of cyclist accidents only involve a single bicycle. ..

How would the ROTR help with accidents where a single bicycle is involved.

A study conducted in 2000 by the Institute for Road Safety Research in the Netherlands found that single bicycle accidents accounted for 47% of all bicycle accidents,

between 60% and 85% of serious cyclist injuries are the result of negligence by a motor driver...

This is what one would expect from thermodynamics; a cyclist only accident only provides a small amount of energy whereas a motor vehicle can provide a lot. The injuries are related to the energy available. Falling off and hitting obstructions tend to be relatively minor, usually not involving any hospital attention, so no appearance in the statistics. Motor vehicles add a lot of energy; even at very low speeds...

Its a test shows that the road user has some understanding of the ROTR, is that a bad thing?

Its not the panacea of safety, you are promoting it as.

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 09:44PM

Jester252 wrote: »

If you read the thread I already answer this. Overconfidence, lapse in concentration etc.
Do you honestly thing that it is safe for you and other road user to have someone use the road without any knowledge of the ROTR? Why is it a bad thing to want road users to show that they have some knowledge of the ROTR by taking a test?

Pedestrians too?

Mobility scooter users?

At what age should a cyclist have to take this test and they should be allowed cycle before they past their test?

And why are people allowed drive on a provisional licence in a car without dual controls?

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:48PM

beauf wrote: »

How would the ROTR help with accidents where a single bicycle is involved.

With regards to the ROTR section for cyclsit

Its not the panacea of safety, you are promoting it as.

Why is it a bad thing to have proof that a road user has some knowledge of the ROTR? Do you think its safe to stick a guy on the a busy roundabout with no experience or no knowledge of the ROTR?

Cookie_Monster · 08-12-2013 09:51PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Do you honestly thing that it is safe for you and other road user to have someone use the road without any knowledge of the ROTR? Why is it a bad thing to want road users to show that they have some knowledge of the ROTR by taking a test?

it's not necessarily a bad thing, simply not required.
only users of motor powered vehicles are required to do a test, no other road users are.

Greenmachine · 08-12-2013 09:52PM

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

The standard of driving in Ireland is pretty poor, in general. You only have to drive the M50 ring road to see this in action. Yes it's a ring road, not a motorway.

I am excluding the under 25's (more or less) mostly males, as they can't help that stuff. We They are like young rucking stags for those years. Sad but true. Blame genitcs! Most do get sense eventually.

There are a few arséhole cyclist too. Maybe they are under 25 too?
If not, lets just put that down to possibly their general personality and not tar all cyclists with the same brush. There are quite a few arséhole drivers too.

Being on a bike, my, and possibly other cyclists main aim, is to stay alive; while getting to our destination.
I don't think a lot of car drivers, including myself, have this as a first thought when they get into a car. But on a bike I do.

Occasionally I have to do what I refer to as the Motorcycle manoeuvre.

I pretend I am on a motor cycle.

That is why at the walkinstown roundabout I am taking over the whole lane. Sorry I am not as fast as you would like taking off but I do so in the knowledge that I have read the traffic right and will make it to my exit without impeding traffic. I have been beeped at once and that was by someone who decided to accelerate across the rounadabout.

As a car driver and a cyclist I have learnt one easy indicator to spot a more or less wanting car driver. Just note the angle of their wing mirrors. If they are at an angle that they the driver, can see the arse of their car in, then be careful. If you are behind them and you can see their face in the mirror, they are doing it wrong....

The "M" in "M50" would disagree. I do think some typical cyclist behaviour is pretty bad. I will say however that how I have seen motorists behave on approaching a roundabout where I have entered on a bicycle at the previous exit. Hint I have the right of way if I approach the roundabout from your right.

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:52PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Pedestrians too?

Mobility scooter users?

At what age should a cyclist have to take this test and they should be allowed cycle before they past their test?

And why are people allowed drive on a provisional licence in a car without dual controls?

Pedestrians and mobility scooter only use the road to cross it, they don't use roundabouts or have to make turns. Stop straw manning

16 for access to the road under that you can use the footpath.

Why should learner cyclist be allowed on the road without an experience cyclist? I can straw man too

beauf · 08-12-2013 09:54PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

But that's 941,000 points issued to people who have taken the time to obtain a license, if points were available to give to cyclists I would expect to see just as many pro rata, so not really an argument,

EDIT Will be interesting to see how FPNs effect cyclist behavior but given the constraints of no registration and no need to carry identification I foresee a lot of people getting away with a lot of offences

Without enforcement, not a lot will change I expect.

Be that cyclists going through red lights, drivers on mobiles.

Jester252 · 08-12-2013 09:54PM

Can believe that so many cyclist would get butt hurt at the taught of doing a test on the rules of the road. I'm out

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 09:55PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Pedestrians and mobility scooter only use the road to cross it, they don't use roundabouts or have to make turns. Stop straw manning

16 for access to the road under that you can use the footpath.

Why should learner cyclist be allowed on the road without an experience cyclist? I can straw man too

What about people who live outside cities and towns - they do more than just cross roads.

So, no more cycling to school, then?

beauf · 08-12-2013 09:55PM

Jester252 wrote: »

...Why should learner cyclist be allowed on the road without an experience cyclist? I can straw man too

Why shouldn't they?

Also why are drivers allowed on a road without an experienced driver. Because having your test doesn't mean you are experienced.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 09:58PM

beauf wrote: »

Without enforcement, not a lot will change I expect.

Be that cyclists going through red lights, drivers on mobiles.

But there is enforcement otherwise where did they get the volunteers to take 941,000 penalty points?

EDIT

You may not consider there is sufficient enforcement but there is still enforcement, awaiting FPNs for cyclists with great interest

Cookie_Monster · 08-12-2013 10:00PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

But there is enforcement otherwise where did they get the volunteers to take 941,000 penalty points?

there is very very limited enforcement. Drive the m50 for a day and see the level of enforcement compared to the level of law breaking of all types for example.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:04PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there is very very limited enforcement. Drive the m50 for a day and see the level of enforcement compared to the level of law breaking of all types for example.

Unless you're suggesting a police state or the resources of the NSA being targeted towards them you will always get a level of law breaking, just that with FPNs that law breaking for cyclists will have repercussions.

A few FPNs of €250 would put manners on a lot of cyclists

of course if you had licenses and penalty points you could get a €50 fine and a point or two instead but cyclists in general don't want licenses

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 10:08PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Unless you're suggesting a police state or the resources of the NSA being targeted towards them you will always get a level of law breaking, just that with FPNs that law breaking for cyclists will have repercussions.

A few FPNs of €250 would put manners on a lot of cyclists of course if you had licenses and penalty points you could get a €50 fine and a point or two instead but cyclists in general don't want licenses

Neither do the Guards, the Government, the RSA or anyone else - just a minority of people who don't understand public administration.

beauf · 08-12-2013 10:11PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Unless you're suggesting a police state or the resources of the NSA being targeted towards them you will always get a level of law breaking, just that with FPNs that law breaking for cyclists will have repercussions.

A few FPNs of €250 would put manners on a lot of cyclists of course if you had licenses and penalty points you could get a €50 fine and a point or two instead but cyclists in general don't want licenses

Are you willing to pay more in tax to pay for the cost of punishing cyclist. For a negligible effect on safety, (possibly a negative impact) and a increase in congestion.

Kurtosis · 08-12-2013 10:13PM

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Biggest danger of all is when a motorist decides to take a left turn at a junction when a cyclist is going straight on, and is perfectly entitled to carry on his/her way without some knucklehead motorist deciding to cut them up. Are those fookers blind or what?? Or perhaps they don't seem to realise that cyclists are actually MOVING :rolleyes:

Spook_ie wrote: »

SI332/2012

Since the poster refers to cyclists moving, I imagine their point related to a motorist overtaking a cyclist approaching a junction and trying to turn without fully completing the overtaking maneuver. SI332/2012 does not relate to this all to often an occurrence.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:15PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Neither do the Guards, the Government, the RSA or anyone else - just a minority of people who don't understand public administration.

Assuming that reply is referring to the costs of implicating a licensing system, is exactly why I reckon an FPN should be far in excess of the fine imposed on motorists for speeding etc. as a lot of cyclists like to highlight the disparity between motorist fines and FPNs as a facet of their arguments to reduce the cost of FPNs

Jawgap · 08-12-2013 10:17PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Assuming that reply is referring to the costs of implicating a licensing system, is exactly why I reckon an FPN should be far in excess of the fine imposed on motorists for speeding etc. as a lot of cyclists like to highlight the disparity between motorist fines and FPNs as a facet of their arguments to reduce the cost of FPNs

Cost, complexity and proportionality - are you going to compel cyclists to carry id? What about teenagers - at what age would they be required to carry id just to use a bicycle!!

Kurtosis · 08-12-2013 10:25PM

Enforcement of rule breaking by cyclists is already possible. Fixed penalty notices will just make the process easier for everyone.

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:25PM

penguin88 wrote: »

Since the poster refers to cyclists moving, I imagine their point related to a motorist overtaking a cyclist approaching a junction and trying to turn without fully completing the overtaking maneuver. SI332/2012 does not relate to this all to often an occurrence.

Insufficient information given in the post to conclude for either occurrence, however, the SI332/2012 does seem to SPECIFICALLY preclude cyclists from overtaking on the left under SPECIFIC circumstances

I.e If I overtook a cyclist (safely) and were then indicating left to turn a little way up the street I wouldn't be expecting the cyclist to try overtaking on the left just because I'm slowing to make a turn

Spook_ie · 08-12-2013 10:31PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Cost, complexity and proportionality - are you going to compel cyclists to carry id? What about teenagers - at what age would they be required to carry id just to use a bicycle!!

If you aren't carrying ID and become subject of a FPN I believe the Garda is allowed to detain you until verification of your identity is completed, some people think that detaining the cycle may be sufficient and making the cyclist walk I'm open to either being applied as long as it is applied.

If cyclists find it too much of an imposition on their lifestyles then in the absence of cycling licenses I'd suggest you either stay law abiding or carry ID

Kurtosis · 08-12-2013 10:35PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Insufficient information given in the post to conclude for either occurrence, however, the SI332/2012 does seem to SPECIFICALLY preclude cyclists from overtaking on the left under SPECIFIC circumstances

I.e If I overtook a cyclist (safely) and were then indicating left to turn a little way up the street I wouldn't be expecting the cyclist to try overtaking on the left just because I'm slowing to make a turn

The previous poster complained about being cut up, which to me suggests an overtaking maneuver following by a left turn across the vehicle being overtaken so as to impede them. If an overtaking maneuver cannot be completed safely before turning left then it would be best to wait until the first vehicle has cleared the junction/turn.

Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

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