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Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

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Comments

  • #872
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    That's not hearsay - it's opinion based on personal experience


  • #873
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    That's not hearsay - it's opinion
    :rolleyes:
    Than why did you try and use it as proof that cyclist without a driving licence are competent?


  • #874
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Yet again more hear say
    How is it safe to have someone on the road without any prove that he or she knows the ROTR?

    Which group has less accidents, the group most familiar with the current ROTR, those that have just done the test. Or those less familiar as they either never did it, or did it a long time ago when the rules may have been different.


  • #875
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jester252 wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    Than why did you try and use it as proof that cyclist without a driving licence are competent?
    I didn't:confused:


  • #876
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    beauf wrote: »
    Which group has less accidents, the group most familiar with the current ROTR, those that have just done the test. Or those less familiar as they either never did it, or did it a long time ago when the rules may have been different.

    Explain to me how it is safe to have someone on the road who might not know how to make a safe turn or use a roundabout?


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  • #877
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    I didn't:confused:

    You did


  • #878
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Explain to me how it is safe to have someone on the road who might not know how to make a safe turn or use a roundabout?

    Explain how people who just passed the driving test are most likely to have an accidents and ignore the rules. (Driver error).


  • #879
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Beasty wrote: »
    I didn't:confused:
    Jester252 wrote: »
    You did


    .. and the xmas panto season begins. ;)


  • #880
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    beauf wrote: »
    Explain how people who just passed the driving test are most likely to have an accidents and ignore the rules. (Driver error).

    False sense of confidence, lapse of concentration etc. Now care to answer my question or are you going to try an blow it off because its too hard.


  • #881
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Explain to me how it is safe to have someone on the road who might not know how to make a safe turn or use a roundabout?
    I saw a driver (without L plates) take a right at a roundabout today but stayed in the left lane all the way around. I regularly see drivers who fail to indicate when turning, or overtake when approaching a junction. I often will go through traffic lights just as they are turning, thinking that another second and I would have had to have stopped, only to witness 3 or 4 motor vehicles following me through. Passing a test is in no way an indication that a driver is "safe", or understands/observes the relevant traffic law/RoTR.

    I see cyclists making the same "errors", but also see plenty of cyclists who will correctly follow traffic law/the RoTR in all the above situations.


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  • #882
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    I saw a driver (without L plates) take a right at a roundabout today but stayed in the left lane all the way around. I regularly see drivers who fail to indicate when turning, or overtake when approaching a junction. I often will go through traffic lights just as they are turning, thinking that another second and I would have had to have stopped, only to witness 3 or 4 motor vehicles following me through. Passing a test is in no way an indication that a driver is "safe", or understands/observes the relevant traffic law/RoTR.

    I see cyclists making the same "errors", but also see plenty of cyclists who will correctly follow traffic law/the RoTR in all the above situations.

    So by that logic drivers should be allowed out on the road without passing any test.
    You still have not answer my question how is it safe to have someone on the road who could have no knowledge of the ROTR?
    P.s I never said safe I said competent try and get it right. ;)


  • #883
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jester252 wrote: »
    So by that logic drivers should be allowed out on the road without passing any test.
    No - I never suggested that, although it has happened
    Jester252 wrote: »
    You still have not answer my question how is it safe to have someone on the road who could have no knowledge of the ROTR?
    I never said it was
    Jester252 wrote: »
    P.s I never said safe I said competent try and get it right. ;)
    Get what right?

    EDIT - perhaps if you could quote the bits that you believe imply the above it would be easier to understand where you are coming from, as it just seems to me that you are either misinterpreting my statements or drawing conclusions that were never intended


  • #884
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    False sense of confidence, lapse of concentration etc. Now care to answer my question or are you going to try an blow it off because its too hard.

    Does that not suggest (along with the stats on young driver) that passing the test and having an up to date knowledge of the ROTR doesn't not mate someone safe on the road?
    Jester252 wrote: »
    There is nothing absurd about it, there is no test of competency for a cyclist so how can they prove that they are competent road users?

    By not dying.
    Jester252 wrote: »
    Image this two identical sixteen years, one gets a car and the other gets a bicycle for their birthday. Which one can go out onto the use their vehicle on the road that day? Explain to me how it makes that one person must pass a basic test on the ROTR and the other doesn't?

    Because with a car you can cause a vastly greater amount of damage, and death than you can on a bicycle and the cost of these accidents, are vastly higher (in general) than those on a bicycle.


  • #885
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    No - I never suggested that
    I never said it was
    Get what right?

    Care to try and answer the question or are you going to post more stories?


  • #886
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Care to try and answer the question or are you going to post more stories?
    What question?


  • #887
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    beauf wrote: »
    Does that not suggest (along with the stats on young driver) that passing the test and having an up to date knowledge of the ROTR doesn't not mate someone safe on the road?
    yet again try and get it right. I said competent road user never safe road user. This sort of jump is a perfect example of over confidence.
    By not dying.
    So all new road user who are cyclist should live by the survival of the fittest rule?

    Because with a car you can cause a vastly greater amount of damage, and death than you can on a bicycle and the cost of these accidents, are vastly higher (in general) than those on a bicycle.
    The theory test has nothing to do with control of a car. Its to do with the ROTR


  • #888
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    What question?

    Explain to me how is it safe to have a road user (cyclist) on the road without any proof that they have knowledge of the ROTR?


  • #889
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    yet again try and get it right. I said competent road user never safe road user. This sort of jump is a perfect example of over confidence.

    Whats objective of competence if not safety?
    Jester252 wrote: »
    So all new road user who are cyclist should live by the survival of the fittest rule?

    If there a higher priority than staying alive?
    Jester252 wrote: »
    The theory test has nothing to do with control of a car. Its to do with the ROTR

    Your questions was why does one road user need to do a test and other road users, like pedestrian and cyclists don't. The reason is the scale of damage and cost.


  • #890
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Explain to me how is it safe to have a road user (cyclist) on the road without any proof that they have knowledge of the ROTR?
    OK, so why pick on cyclists? - are they the only ones where you require such proof? What about those motorists that never passed an Irish Driving test (and many who did but have either forgotten or choose to ignore certain RoTR) and pedestrians?

    You started this discussion with a claim that cyclists are not competent because they may not have passed a test - you are stating that there must be some kind of "proof" otherwise you do consider them "competent". I am saying that many motorists are in a similar position, and I am also saying that some (not all) cyclists are perfectly competent despite never having passed a driving test.


  • #891
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Explain to me how is it safe to have a road user (cyclist) on the road without any proof that they have knowledge of the ROTR?

    Whats your metric for determining what is safe? The number of deaths?


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  • #892
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    Biggest danger of all is when a motorist decides to take a left turn at a junction when a cyclist is going straight on, and is perfectly entitled to carry on his/her way without some knucklehead motorist deciding to cut them up. Are those fookers blind or what?? Or perhaps they don't seem to realise that cyclists are actually MOVING :rolleyes:

    SI332/2012

    (b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

    (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

    (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,


  • #893
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Beasty wrote: »
    ...some (not all) cyclists are perfectly competent despite never having passed a driving test.


    On the flip side some drivers and cyclists are not safe even having passed the test.


  • #894
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    seamus wrote: »
    According to street view and google maps the arrows painted on the road at this junction (Dyke Parade/Bachelors Quay eastbound) indicate that either lane can be used for going straight on.
    If that is the case, then the cyclist was in the correct lane. Though I accept the markings may have changed since the images were taken.

    In any case, it doesn't actually matter if the cyclist was in the correct lane. When turning left, you must yield to any traffic on your left. The cyclist had right-of-way merely by being in that position, even if it was the incorrect one.

    See SI332/2012


  • #895
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    beauf wrote: »
    Whats objective of competence if not safety?
    Competency is the ability of an individual to do a job properly i.e how to use a roundabout.

    If there a higher priority than staying alive?
    Not killing other with your lack of competency
    Your questions was why does one road user need to do a test and other road users, like pedestrian and cyclists don't. The reason is the scale of damage and cost.

    So a cyclist doesn't need to know how to turn properly?


  • #896
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Beasty wrote: »
    OK, so why pick on cyclists? - are they the only ones where you require such proof? What about those motorists that never passed an Irish Driving test (and many who did but have either forgotten or choose to ignore certain RoTR) and pedestrians?

    You started this discussion with a claim that cyclists are not competent because they may not have passed a test - you are stating that there must be some kind of "proof" otherwise you do consider them "competent". I am saying that many motorists are in a similar position, and I am also saying that some (not all) cyclists are perfectly competent despite never having passed a driving test.

    I didn't pick on cyclist, I just pointing out that a certain attitude by certain poster i.e people thinking that they are good road users. Nobody can say they are a good road user, they have nothing to back it up.
    Never said a cyclist wasn't competent, try reading the thread correctly, I said that cyclist can't say that they are competent road user. It doesn't stop them from being competent but they have nothing to back them up.

    Also it that regard can you see how it might not be safe to have someone use the road who might have not studied the ROTR?


  • #897
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Not killing other with your lack of competency

    Ok give some stats on the numbers of people killed by cyclists every year in Ireland then.
    Jester252 wrote: »
    So a cyclist doesn't need how to turn properly?

    Your question isn't do cyclist need to turn properly, your question is do cyclists need to do a test. Which then brings up will doing the test solve an issue that is costing more than doing the test.


  • #898
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jester252 wrote: »
    I didn't pick on cyclist, I just pointing out that a certain attitude by certain poster i.e people thinking that they are good road users. Nobody can say they are a good road user, they have nothing to back it up.
    Never said a cyclist wasn't competent, try reading the thread correctly, I said that cyclist can't say that they are competent road user. It doesn't stop them from being competent but they have nothing to back them up.

    Also it that regard can you see how it might not be safe to have someone use the road who might have not studied the ROTR?

    That's based on the premise that studying the ROTR makes you safer on the road. How can that be, if the people most familiar with the ROTR are the ones having the most accidents.
    ...One in five young drivers (17 to 24-year-olds) will have an accident within six months of passing their test ...evidence shows that risk reduces quickly as experience is gained.

    If the 16yr on the bike has been cycling for a few years they might have more experience than person driving 3 months having passed their test.


  • #899
    Unknown Soldier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Unknown Soldier


    The standard of driving in Ireland is pretty poor, in general. You only have to drive the M50 ring road to see this in action. Yes it's a ring road, not a motorway.

    I am excluding the under 25's (more or less) mostly males, as they can't help that stuff. We They are like young rucking stags for those years. Sad but true. Blame genitcs! Most do get sense eventually.

    There are a few arséhole cyclist too. Maybe they are under 25 too?
    If not, lets just put that down to possibly their general personality and not tar all cyclists with the same brush. There are quite a few arséhole drivers too.

    Being on a bike, my, and possibly other cyclists main aim, is to stay alive; while getting to our destination.
    I don't think a lot of car drivers, including myself, have this as a first thought when they get into a car. But on a bike I do.

    Occasionally I have to do what I refer to as the Motorcycle manoeuvre.

    I pretend I am on a motor cycle.

    That is why at the walkinstown roundabout I am taking over the whole lane. Sorry I am not as fast as you would like taking off but I do so in the knowledge that I have read the traffic right and will make it to my exit without impeding traffic. I have been beeped at once and that was by someone who decided to accelerate across the rounadabout.

    As a car driver and a cyclist I have learnt one easy indicator to spot a more or less wanting car driver. Just note the angle of their wing mirrors. If they are at an angle that they the driver, can see the arse of their car in, then be careful. If you are behind them and you can see their face in the mirror, they are doing it wrong....


  • #900
    Jester252
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    beauf wrote: »
    Ok give some stats on the numbers of people killed by cyclists every year in Ireland then.



    Your question isn't do cyclist need to turn properly, your question is do cyclists need to do a test. Which then brings up will doing the test solve an issue that is costing more than doing the test.

    Never said anything about cyclist killing people but cyclist have 8 times more likely to have an accident per km than a motorist. The majority of cyclist accidents only involve a single bicycle. Also note that a cyclist accident is less likely to be reported.

    Its a test shows that the road user has some understanding of the ROTR, is that a bad thing?


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  • #901
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Jester252 wrote: »
    You do need proof, how can you be competent if you haven't pass a test on the ROTR?

    Passing a test is not a proof of competency - it's only proof of an ability to pass tests......


This discussion has been closed.
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