Repentance

Geomy · 05-12-2013 12:04PM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyoEV0OVRY

Joe1919 · 05-12-2013 12:10PM

Geomy wrote: »

I just feel more at peace when out walking the rocky roads, hill walking etc
It heightens sensations and I feel very vibrant...
To be away from it all, the churches are man made. ..
The wilderness is shaped by nature...

I agree to a great extent. There a hill in the midlands with a plaque on top that says it all for me. But I think I am more pantheist than theist or perhaps more 'transtheist'.

Benny_Cake · 05-12-2013 12:35PM

Geomy wrote: »

Ill take back what I said about the holy book if it offended anyone I'm sorry. .., but I think man shouldn't have dominion over the earth. ..

I didn't find it offensive at all. There is an interesting piece on "dominion" in Genesis here:

http://christopherbrown.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/genesis-128-to-subdue-and-have-dominion-over-creation/

Personally I think that we are called to stewardship of the earth rather than dominion over it. It probably suits some to act as if the planet is ours to use and abuse though.

Geomy · 05-12-2013 12:37PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I didn't find it offensive at all. There is an interesting piece on "dominion" in Genesis here:

http://christopherbrown.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/genesis-128-to-subdue-and-have-dominion-over-creation/

Personally I think that we are called to stewardship of the earth rather than dominion over it. It probably suits some to act as if the planet is ours to use and abuse though.

Did you check out my YouTube link Benny ?

Benny_Cake · 05-12-2013 12:43PM

Geomy wrote: »

Did you check out my YouTube link Benny ?

I will - on the phone here so I won't have a chance to look at properly until later. John Moriarty was an interesting man.

antiskeptic · 06-12-2013 12:26AM

mashedbanana wrote: »

when you mention formula, are you refering to the Graham formula?

I suppose I mean any formula since the formula will inevitably be a man-made distillation of how it is God saves man.

But having seen a YouTube video on the Graham Formula (referring to Billy Graham-esque altar calls) I would include such formulae in those that don't necessarily lead to salvation.

Billy Graham himself hoped that maybe 5% of people who responded to his altar calls might be saved through them. Which would indicate he too eschews formulae

lmaopml · 06-12-2013 11:09PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't know if this is always the sequence of salvation, it probably isn't. Safe to say that one shouldn't rely on any formula in the hope of having God dance on puppet strings.

Absolutely love this. Sincerity is important..say what you mean and mean what you say. That's a basic thing.

It's not all about 'personal salvation', but about everybody all the time..there is no 'judge' of the person who honestly seeks Christ but only One judge, the one who knows above all, and is the lover of us inquisitive and at times gentle and other times crazy people...

Personally, I think it's important to just love the best you can every day and above all know where that stems from and give thanks for it, knowing yourself and knowing when you get that 'pang' when you could love more, especially when it's hard to, or just be a Christian to another, and again give thanks for that too.

The notion that Christians are, or see themselves as being 'perfect', or 'rule' people is a farce..so far from the truth. No, they are on a 'journey'...a wise man once said it starts out with a 'first step'..but the 'way' will never change.

God and neighbour are in a Christian heart.

That of course, from a Christian - is an understanding of my God the 'Christian' God - and no other is like Him. I love my Christianity, my faith..my brothers and sisters.

Love rules! Especially when it's not only received, much like repentance/forgiveness but 'given' too...for free - and there are very few who live up to that, myself included, I would fail so badly - but that's why Christ came for us.

We use too many measures sometimes, to our fault - there is a light there, we have to shine it up and let it do what it does best..

hinault · 10-12-2013 10:06PM

Geomy wrote: »

Can anyone explain, what's the proper way for a person to repent ?

Can it be done on your death bed ?

One must sincerely be sorry for the sins that one has committed.
That is the starting point.

In terms of death bed confessions, the obvious question has to be - what motivates their confession?

If the person on their deathbed is aware that they're in a state of sin - why did they only come to that realisation on their deathbed?

Why weren't they aware of their sinfulness before then?

Perhaps they were aware of their sinfulness before then but deliberately chose to ignore their sinfulness?
If this is the case then their sincerity about their sinfulness must be in doubt.

generic2012 · 11-12-2013 03:12PM

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself? Like, a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers, maybe I'm not reading the right material? It seems like an important point so I must be missing something?

georgieporgy · 11-12-2013 09:00PM

generic2012 wrote: »

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself? Like, a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers, maybe I'm not reading the right material? It seems like an important point so I must be missing something?

your problem seems to be one of attitude.

It's not so much that you're not reading the right material, more so you're not reading the material right.

antiskeptic · 12-12-2013 01:18AM

generic2012 wrote: »

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself?

Seems to me like you've hit the nail on the head ... and snookered God.

I mean, would God expect that you believe the ramblings of someone on an internet forum (2013) or the ramblings of a man dressed in robes from a pulpit (1813)? Fantastic claims aren't being evidenced fantastically afterall

This most especially when...

....a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers..

-

Seems to me that the only person you should appeal to is God, and God alone. And if God doesn't respond and your spirit flags of asking then perhaps remind yourself that you've no one else to turn to. If realising you've no one else to turn to then you've little option but to persevere until such time as he choses to respond to you.

The psalms are full of cries in the wilderness from a man who has known the Lord's presence and misses it.

The man who has never known of the Lord's presence can't miss it but can yearn for it. Yearn for a peace of mind that would come from him taking the helm.

I think the core thing is that God not turn up at our whim, but at the point of our realisation that there are no alternative roads left to travel. The bottom of an alcoholic barrel for some, the bottom of the barrel for everyone else .. who comes to know God.

generic2012 · 12-12-2013 12:21PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

your problem seems to be one of attitude.

It's not so much that you're not reading the right material, more so you're not reading the material right.

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I'm not having a crisis of faith or anything, 'science' just doesn't have the right answers and isn't fulfilling like the one truth, but I'm so confused..

Benny_Cake · 12-12-2013 12:43PM

generic2012 wrote: »

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I haven't read it yet, but the theologian Marcus Borg has a book called "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally" which is highly recommended. Borg takes what he calls a "historical-metaphorical" approach to the Bible which you may find interesting. Bear in mind that the Bible contains many different books in a variety of literary styles.

generic2012 · 12-12-2013 01:15PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I haven't read it yet, but the theologian Marcus Borg has a book called "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally" which is highly recommended. Borg takes what he calls a "historical-metaphorical" approach to the Bible which you may find interesting. Bear in mind that the Bible contains many different books in a variety of literary styles.

But surely if it was meant to be read like that it would have been said somewhere at the time it was written? I doubt God sent Marcus Borg to show how to read the Bible correctly in 2001, that would mean that everyone's been interpreting the Bible wrong for nearly 3,000 years? I don't mean to seem like I'm cutting you down or anything, just trying to explain my thinking on the whole thing.

mashedbanana · 12-12-2013 01:51PM

generic2012 wrote: »

But surely if it was meant to be read like that it would have been said somewhere at the time it was written? I doubt God sent Marcus Borg to show how to read the Bible correctly in 2001, that would mean that everyone's been interpreting the Bible wrong for nearly 3,000 years? I don't mean to seem like I'm cutting you down or anything, just trying to explain my thinking on the whole thing.

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

Even reading the parables, are quiet simple. My kids understand them, and what it is the story is referring to.

So I never understand the interpreting bit.
I DO on the other hand, know when folk are trying to twist scripture, and make it to be something that it is not. Just cos it fits into their own way of thinking. Makes it more comfortable, and palatable for them. They pick and choose what they want to believe, and for the bits they don't want to except...well they tell you 'Oh no, you got it wrong, this is what it meant'
Even though there is no other piece of scripture to back up what they are saying.

I dont need a Marcus to come along and tell me how to read the Bible. Putting money in his pocket. All I personally need to do is ask the holy Spirit to give me a hand with a piece of verse, open my eyes, and give me clarity, when reading my Bible. It works each and every time. Never failed yet.

(If interpreting, is in reference to language translation, then a Strongs Concordance is the way to go. It has the Hebrew in it too)

generic2012 · 12-12-2013 01:57PM

mashedbanana wrote: »

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

Even reading the parables, are quiet simple. My kids understand them, and what it is the story is referring to.

I'm in exactly the same boat! It's very comforting to know someone thinks the same!!!

What are you views on this part? -

generic2012 wrote: »

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

generic2012 wrote: »

So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

antiskeptic · 12-12-2013 02:17PM

mashedbanana wrote: »

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

And when another person applies the same process as you but comes up with a different meaning? What's that called, if not two different interpretations?

georgieporgy · 12-12-2013 02:36PM

generic2012 wrote: »

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I'm not having a crisis of faith or anything, 'science' just doesn't have the right answers and isn't fulfilling like the one truth, but I'm so confused..

You sound like your a catholic? If so, do you go to weely mass? It's possible your formation is lacking in some areas and you just need to read a few books. With the advent of Christ we have moved on from Old Testament practices (much to the relief of our wives and daughters)

http://www.opusdei.ie/art.php?p=25249

Benedict XVI: read the Bible every day

""Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ." Citing words of St. Jerome, the Holy Father advised all the faithful to read a passage from the Bible each day.

2007/11/19

"To read Scripture is to converse with God: ‘if you are praying,’ Jerome writes to a young noble woman from Rome, ‘you are speaking with the Bridegroom; if you are reading, it is He who is speaking to you.’"

The Pope recalled that for Jerome "an essential method for interpreting Scripture is union with the Church’s magisterium."

"Alone we are not able to read Scripture. We find too many closed doors and are easily mistaken. The Bible was written by the people of God and for the people of God, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," said Benedict XVI.

l Would also recommend http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
as a good reference

generic2012 · 12-12-2013 03:08PM

I am Catholic and I do go to weekly mass. Thanks for the thoughtful response...good info! Again, my dilemma, if the Old Testament was false does that mean everyone before the time of Jesus was wrong? It is also a hol book so I don't think it should be shrugged off, there are passages in the New Testament where statements attributed to Jesus seem to make it clear that he wasn't coming to change anything about the old laws (John 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill") and the New Testament isn't any less uncomforting to me if I'm being honest (Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death, Romans (after talking about fornication, homosexuality, boasting and other sins) - 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.). I could go on but my point is there is no point trying to separate the teachings of both testaments when they are written and taught by the same teacher and teach the same things? I don't think I know any gay people so that's all right and I'll have a good wife but if I'm being a good Christian, in this day and age, with all the temptation and lack of respect in the world, I'd be very surprised if I could let any of my children live past 4, or at the max, 5 years old. I'm getting really demoralised about the future at this stage...

georgieporgy · 12-12-2013 03:44PM

generic2012 wrote: »

I am Catholic and I do go to weekly mass. Thanks for the thoughtful response...good info! Again, my dilemma, if the Old Testament was false does that mean everyone before the time of Jesus was wrong? It is also a hol book so I don't think it should be shrugged off, there are passages in the New Testament where statements attributed to Jesus seem to make it clear that he wasn't coming to change anything about the old laws (John 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill") and the New Testament isn't any less uncomforting to me if I'm being honest (Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death, Romans (after talking about fornication, homosexuality, boasting and other sins) - 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.). I could go on but my point is there is no point trying to separate the teachings of both testaments when they are written and taught by the same teacher and teach the same things? I don't think I know any gay people so that's all right and I'll have a good wife but if I'm being a good Christian, in this day and age, with all the temptation and lack of respect in the world, I'd be very surprised if I could let any of my children live past 4, or at the max, 5 years old. I'm getting really demoralised about the future at this stage...

You need a good Bible Commentary to refer to when you come accross difficult passages. The best I've seen is the Navarre Bible (University of Navarre, Spain)
http://www.catholiccompany.com/navarre-bible-c466/?numonpage=0

a very readable translation ( in both english and latin) accompanied by an excellent commentary from various church fathers and saints. Each book of the bible can be purchased separately but it works out expensive if you get the whole set (500 euro).
Another good (cheaper)comprehensive source of info for the serious christian is
http://www.amazon.com/In-Conversation-God-Meditations-Volume/dp/0906138191/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372865499&sr=8-1&keywords=in+conversation+with+god

Read that and you will let the kids live!

generic2012 · 12-12-2013 03:50PM

I think that's a step too far! sorry! but I don't think salvation costs €500! The Bible is the word of God so surely the answer is in there somewhere!?

mashedbanana · 13-12-2013 11:35AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

And when another person applies the same process as you but comes up with a different meaning? What's that called, if not two different interpretations?

But thats the point I'm making. How can someone/anyone come up with a different meaning. When the meaning is so very very obvious? how can it be different? We could hit that ball back and forth all day long, which I'm sure neither you nor I have any desire to do.

Peregrinus · 13-12-2013 11:42AM

But clearly, mashedbanana, if someone of ordinary intelligence and thoughtfulness can in good faith come up with an understanding which is different from the one you think is "so very very obvious", is that not evidence that the meaning you think is so very very obvious not, in reality, so very very obvious as you think?

mashedbanana · 13-12-2013 12:06PM

generic2012 wrote: »

I'm in exactly the same boat! It's very comforting to know someone thinks the same!!!

What are you views on this part? -

God has not changed. But his covenant has. God never changes.
The old testament is there for our teaching, where you would often flick back to it, to cross reference points. But the new testament is there for us to follow, it's our instructions and our guide. By no means ignore the Old Testament, but by all means let the new testament be your guide. The new testament does not replace the old. It is all their for our teaching.

We need to study to show ourselves aproved. Mat2 2:15. we have no other choice but to absolutely understand the word of God, and not to 'get it wrong' otherwise we would be spreading a false gospel... no?

Have a look at Tim1 4:4. Folk will still argue that we shouldn't eat pork & other bits & bobs.

I personally like Thess1 4:11. Its to do with us minding our own, and getting on with our own business, living quietly. Plodding along as they say.

Now moving along to a more, maybe touchy subject. I'll consider Tim1 2:9
We gotta call a spade a spade here. Man was created first. That was God's choice. We came along afterwards. God isn't asking any woman to live with a drunkard, or a wife beater. In fact it's there in black and white how a wife should treat a husband, and how a husband should treat a wife.

We are also, not to be unequally yoked. If you are a God fearing woman, don't drink, don't smoke, well, your ideal husband is not the one suporting Arthur Guinness every night of the week. At this point I would have done better if I had looked to see if Op is a he or a she!!! Sorry Op! But ya get my drift.

The old testament was there as the people were being formed. They were only learning. They weren't big into rules, of any sort. They needed to be shown the way. (literally) the new testament is God inspired, absolutely!Tim2

:16.

Don't be tough on yourself Op, in my humble opinion, you have done your best to stay in the word of Christ.

antiskeptic · 13-12-2013 12:19PM

mashedbanana wrote: »

But thats the point I'm making. How can someone/anyone come up with a different meaning. When the meaning is so very very obvious? how can it be different? We could hit that ball back and forth all day long, which I'm sure neither you nor I have any desire to do.

You haven't hit the ball back yet such as to be in danger of tennis.

The ball points out that different people take different meanings (and different multiple meanings since scripture isn't single dimensional when it comes to meaning). The meaning appears obvious to them and they can't understand why the other person can't see what they see.

Since they both claim "obvious" there's no particular reason to suppose what's obvious to one of them, e.g. you, is the correct view just because it's obvious to you.

And so we are left with different interpretations. Whilst you can argue your interpretation a better one (and you need to provide reasons why this is so) you can't simply claim "obvious to me and that's good enough".

generic2012 · 13-12-2013 12:36PM

I still think we should beat our wife at least once, just in case, so I can hold my head up high and say I'm a good Christian when I reach the pearly gates. I wouldn't say I'm the best Jeremiah 48:10 (NAB) 'Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.', I don't know if I'd be a good enough Christian to commit mass murder 'This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB, to kill my family '"Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:29 NLT), kill the children of sinners, "Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB), kill people who work on Sunday, my cheeky children, blasphemers (like the ones on this thread), maybe a gay person etc.

But I could definitely be a good enough Christian to beat my wife and children. I think we should all band together. In this day and age with all the atheists, humanists, secularists and what have you, I think we should show the world that just because a book was written 3,000 years ago and given to desert goat herders, doesn't mean it's not relevant! It is still totally relevant! I know I will be making the world a better place by beating my wife and children and maybe killing a few people here and there.

georgieporgy · 13-12-2013 12:47PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

But clearly, mashedbanana, if someone of ordinary intelligence and thoughtfulness can in good faith come up with an understanding which is different from the one you think is "so very very obvious", is that not evidence that the meaning you think is so very very obvious not, in reality, so very very obvious as you think?

Perhaps intelligence isn't quite what is required. In the New Testament we have an easy to understand quote from Jesus "I am the good shepherd. I know mine and mine know me". My take on that is that a certain orientation of the heart is the necessary ingredient.

Furthermore, even a small helping of intelligence should tell us that we can't set ourselves up as expert theologians overnight. I remember another passage in Acts about an Ethiopian needing a guide (and along came the apostle Philip to explain the scriptures).

We are all Ethiopians and we need to listen to the apostle that has been provided to us in our own time.

georgieporgy · 13-12-2013 12:51PM

generic2012 wrote: »

I still think we should beat our wife at least once, just in case, so I can hold my head up high and say I'm a good Christian when I reach the pearly gates. I wouldn't say I'm the best Jeremiah 48:10 (NAB) 'Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.', I don't know if I'd be a good enough Christian to commit mass murder 'This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB, to kill my family '"Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:29 NLT), kill the children of sinners, "Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB), kill people who work on Sunday, my cheeky children, blasphemers (like the ones on this thread), maybe a gay person etc.

But I could definitely be a good enough Christian to beat my wife and children. I think we should all band together. In this day and age with all the atheists, humanists, secularists and what have you, I think we should show the world that just because a book was written 3,000 years ago and given to desert goat herders, doesn't mean it's not relevant! It is still totally relevant! I know I will be making the world a better place by beating my wife and children and maybe killing a few people here and there.

You seem to be leaning towards the Muslim interpretation of scripture (peace be upon them...)

antiskeptic · 13-12-2013 12:59PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

Perhaps intelligence isn't quite what is required. In the New Testament we have an easy to understand quote from Jesus "I am the good shepherd. I know mine and mine know me". My take on that is that a certain orientation of the heart is the necessary ingredient.

Given that there is no hint of a reference to ingredients, orientation or necessity in the sentence, I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could arrive at that meaning for that sentence. You could lay that meaning on the sentence using understanding arrived at elsewhere in scripture (eisegesis) but in no way can you extract that meaning from the sentence on it's own (exegesis).

Furthermore, even a small helping of intelligence should tell us that we can't set ourselves up as expert theologians overnight. I remember another passage in Acts about an Ethiopian needing a guide (and along came the apostle Philip to explain the scriptures).

We are all Ethiopians and we need to listen to the apostle that has been provided to us in our own time.

Yet you, an Ethiopian need to have decided for yourself that that meaning, or should I say doctrine (the Church as ultimate authority) is to be extracted from that scripture.

Which makes you the ultimate authority (which is fitting since it means that no one can point the finger at someone else come the day of Judgment)

generic2012 · 13-12-2013 01:01PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

You seem to be leaning towards the Muslim interpretation of scripture (peace be upon them...)

How would you interpret the quotes I've given throughout my posts? There all from the christian bible? If anything your take on them is leaning towards a Buddhist/Jainism interpretation of it

Repentance

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