Repentance

Geomy

Can anyone explain, what's the proper way for a person to repent ?

Can it be done on your death bed ?

martinedwards

Repentance is considering your actions and feeling regret for past wrongs.

the RIGHT way to do it?

well, genuinely feel sorry for the wrong actions for a start.

living like a cross between 1970's Ozzy Osbourne and Russel Brand and then deciding on your deathbed that you'd best hedge your bets isn't (IMHO) going to cut it.

think Scrooge in A Christmas Carol.

after he sees all the visions of Christmas Past, Present & Future he is MOVED to change.

as to can you do it on your death bed?

yes, but I wouldn't take the risk of waiting!

Geomy

It must be a powerful change in consciousness that makes a person repent and change their life over.
A Christian life doesn't suit the majority. ..

Manach

Tannhauser came to mind as an allegorical tale on this.

homer911

The right way to do it is RIGHT NOW

generic2012

I think the best way is to do all the really bad stuff you want to do and repent once and for all, I used to have to repent like every other week but I'm just gonna finish up all my plans and just do one big repent, but that's just me.

mashedbanana

Geomy wrote: »

It must be a powerful change in consciousness that makes a person repent and change their life over.
A Christian life doesn't suit the majority. ..

Yes I agree, and the Christian way of life isn't easy. Not by a long shot. It really is fighting the good fight. A struggle between the body & the spirit. Staying on the straight & narrow.

I agree that it is a 'change their life over'. The way I understand repentance is to feel genuine sorrow for the sin, ask God's forgiveness, ask for the covering of the holy Spirit to give me a pure heart, and the tough part....not to repeat the same mistake.

I would understand the act of repentance pointless, if I were to go on and do the exact same sin again, tomorrow, next week, whenever. The trick is to recognize it, ask forgiveness, and not repeat it.

Geomy

mashedbanana wrote: »

Yes I agree, and the Christian way of life isn't easy. Not by a long shot. It really is fighting the good fight. A struggle between the body & the spirit. Staying on the straight & narrow.

I agree that it is a 'change their life over'. The way I understand repentance is to feel genuine sorrow for the sin, ask God's forgiveness, ask for the covering of the holy Spirit to give me a pure heart, and the tough part....not to repeat the same mistake.

I would understand the act of repentance pointless, if I were to go on and do the exact same sin again, tomorrow, next week, whenever. The trick is to recognize it, ask forgiveness, and not repeat it.

I know but what about people who have so called imoral compulsions, like sex before marriage, breaking some of the ten
commandments on a daily basis. ..
Lusting, coveting.....

It's almost impossible not to find a good looking woman attractive or admire the neighbours new car, fantasize about having one yourself, even momentarily. ...

You're all at it day in day out. ..

mashedbanana

Geomy wrote: »

I know but what about people who have so called imoral compulsions, like sex before marriage, breaking some of the ten
commandments on a daily basis. ..
Lusting, coveting.....

It's almost impossible not to find a good looking woman attractive or admire the neighbours new car, fantasize about having one yourself, even momentarily. ...

You're all at it day in day out. ..

Well for those that have sex before marriage, IF it bothers them, maybe they should stop. If it bothers them that much. Breaking some of the 10 commandments, ya thats a difficult one.

But it was never supposed to be plain sailing.

We need to be conscience of what come out of our mouths, and where our thoughts are taking us. I too get intrusive thoughs sometimes, out of NO WHERE, and I recognise them, and have a chat with the man above about them.

It's about keeping our eye on the ball ALL the time. Keeping our eye on the Lord in other words. This and only this is the priority. It can be done, while getting on with life at the same time. But its hard. I personally need to keep myself in check throughout the day. EVERY DAY.

When I get angry or frustrated and have a mind to string someone up, I automatically know these feelings are not from God. He didn't give us a bashful, fearful, scared or angry spirit.


You can look at the neighbours new car, and think of the payments he's making on it. Or look at his wife, and think 'I'd like one of them' but to begrudge it to someone, thats a naughty one. We as Christians aren't really supposed to be bothered about material things. New cars, etc. I would often pass a big house, and admire it. But do I wants it's mortgage? Do I want to spend all day just moping its floors? ah, no. For every positive there is a negative. To the man with the gorgeous wife, he might look like he has it all. But is this wife God fearing? For what good is one without the other?

Geomy

mashedbanana wrote: »

Well for those that have sex before marriage, IF it bothers them, maybe they should stop. If it bothers them that much. Breaking some of the 10 commandments, ya thats a difficult one.

But it was never supposed to be plain sailing.

We need to be conscience of what come out of our mouths, and where our thoughts are taking us. I too get intrusive thoughs sometimes, out of NO WHERE, and I recognise them, and have a chat with the man above about them.

It's about keeping our eye on the ball ALL the time. Keeping our eye on the Lord in other words. This and only this is the priority. It can be done, while getting on with life at the same time. But its hard. I personally need to keep myself in check throughout the day. EVERY DAY.

When I get angry or frustrated and have a mind to string someone up, I automatically know these feelings are not from God. He didn't give us a bashful, fearful, scared or angry spirit.


You can look at the neighbours new car, and think of the payments he's making on it. Or look at his wife, and think 'I'd like one of them' but to begrudge it to someone, thats a naughty one. We as Christians aren't really supposed to be bothered about material things. New cars, etc. I would often pass a big house, and admire it. But do I wants it's mortgage? Do I want to spend all day just moping its floors? ah, no. For every positive there is a negative. To the man with the gorgeous wife, he might look like he has it all. But is this wife God fearing? For what good is one without the other?

You must be new here mashed banana, It's good to hear a bit of honesty for a change.

I hardly ever hear any of the regulars here keepingit practical and simple.

Being an Agnostic leaning more towards paganism I can see where you're coming from, taking a daily inventory is good. ..

Peregrinus

martinedwards wrote: »

Repentance is considering your actions and feeling regret for past wrongs.

Actually, I’m not convinced that that quite captures it.

“Repentance”, when it turns up in the New Testament - which it does a lot - is an English translation of the Greek word metanoia.

Metanoia, in turn, comes from the Greek prefix meta-, signifying change, transformation, permutation or substitution, and the Greek word nous, meaning “mind”. So it means something like a change of mind.

But not just any old change of mind. “I think I’ll take the strawberry flavour ice-cream after all” is not a metanoia. Nor is “I wish I hadn’t eaten so much ice-cream”. Meta= indicates a very profound, fundamental, transformative change. And nous is not just your mind in the sense of your current opinions or your current intention; it refers to your understanding; your intelligence; your apprehension of your experiences and observations of the world. So metanoia refers to a profound change in the way you see the world, and in how you understand your place in it; a complete re-ordering of what you think is most real, and most important.

“Repentance”, obviously, doesn’t quite capture this. “Repentance”, to us, suggests sorrow or regret or self-blame. Metanoia may well involve sorrow or regret - at the wasted way you have lived up to now, at what you failed to understand, at the opportunities you missed. But sorrow is not going to be the dominant theme; when you finally understand and accept something that you have missed up to now, any regret you feel that it has taken you so long is going to be eclipsed by the joy and confidence you feel in the possibilities opened up to you by what you have come to see. So metanoia is predominantly a positive and joyful thing, and I think the English word “repentance” doesn’t really convey that.

Is deathbed metanoia possible? Well, in the Christian view metanoia is an outworking of the grace of God and, to God, nothing is impossible.

But such a profound change in us does not, typically, happen in an instant, or even in an hour or a day. The Twelve spent years in the more or less constant company of Jesus, witnessing his life, receiving his teaching, and trying to be open to what he had to say. And it’s fairly clear that their metanoia took time. As late as the night of Jesus’ arrest, some of them were still arguing about which of them is the greatest, which I think is a clear pointer that they either haven’t fully understood, or haven’t fully accepted, what Jesus has been teaching them. And if it took them so long to experience metanoia, why should we expect it in an instant? I think metanoia is born of long experience and long reflection; you can easily spend most of your life undergoing metanoia.

mashedbanana

Geomy wrote: »

You must be new here mashed banana, It's good to hear a bit of honesty for a change.

I hardly ever hear any of the regulars here keepingit practical and simple.

Being an Agnostic leaning more towards paganism I can see where you're coming from, taking a daily inventory is good. ..

No no not new at all. But I have seen a few, myself in included, be pulled apart when I would give my opinion. At one point I was told I was a hater of all women, I must have mentioned proverbs 31. I was mocked, but didn't realise it at the time. It was pointed out to me. Then I was encouraged to go over to a thread where, God only knows what would have been said to me!

Can I add...it was allowed to happen too!

I do my best to follow my bible. If I quote scripture....well, it's God's words not mine. God's rules....not mine. Folk have a hard time with that. They want to peck away at the bible. Usually I hear something like 'Well, thats your interpretation of it' This can be frustrating, as it is there in black & white.

God blesses his own people, and takes care of them. Don't forget, we will/are surrounded by people that can talk the talk, but are so far removed from the truth, it's just not funny anymore. They love to argue, when they should be spreading peace. They are easy to spot. They will try to twist scripture, to suit themselves. Be aware.

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, I’m not convinced that that quite captures it.

Well, in the Christian view metanoia is an outworking of the grace of God and, to God, nothing is impossible.

To add.

In my own case, that which lead to the moment of my salvation wasn't repentance (whether turning away from the immoral, pointless life I was leading or undergoing a moral change of mind about the life I was leading - whatever about my ability to cease and desist from said life). Rather, it was a profound sense that I was trapped in a prison of misery and hopelessness and that there was absolutely no way I was going to get out of it.

That which brought me to my knees one night wasn't regret, but despair.

The next morning I woke up and all was different. I knew everything (and that meant everything that could ever be, up to and including what happened after I died) was "going to be okay". Everything..


Profound repentence came later, perhaps 6 months later when, one evening, I had cause to reflect back on and consider all that I had done wrong in my life up to that point. It was then I got to see the fuller extent of the effect of my actions both on others and on myself and a switch went off in my head which evermore changed the way I view my actions and the actions of others. That time of confession (for I was writing out a list of all I could remember having done wrong, reflecting sometimes, scribbling furiously other times) wasn't about making me feel bad; rather the point seemed to involve searing into my mind, the facts about the ugliness of sin - as well as giving me the opportunity to purge the deeply suppressed guilt and shame that must attach to and is the consequence of, sin.


Although I regularly turn away from that view in order to sin, sometimes grossly, oft times easily, the change that happened then is still with me - it's like a door passed through once through which I can never return back through (in the sense of viewing sin differently) whatever about trying to clamber back through the keyhole.

-

I don't know if this is always the sequence of salvation, it probably isn't. Safe to say that one shouldn't rely on any formula in the hope of having God dance on puppet strings.

generic2012

Geomy wrote: »

Being an Agnostic leaning more towards paganism. ..

Can you expand on that a little bit please? I'm quite interested as I can't really imagine what that entails...

mashedbanana

antiskeptic wrote: »

To add.

In my own case, that which lead to the moment of my salvation wasn't repentance (whether turning away from the immoral, pointless life I was leading or undergoing a moral change of mind about the life I was leading - whatever about my ability to cease and desist from said life). Rather, it was a profound sense that I was trapped in a prison of misery and hopelessness and that there was absolutely no way I was going to get out of it.

That which brought me to my knees one night wasn't regret, but despair.

The next morning I woke up and all was different. I knew everything (and that meant everything that could ever be, up to and including what happened after I died) was "going to be okay". Everything..


Profound repentence came later, perhaps 6 months later when, one evening, I had cause to reflect back on and consider all that I had done wrong in my life up to that point. It was then I got to see the fuller extent of the effect of my actions both on others and on myself and a switch went off in my head which evermore changed the way I view my actions and the actions of others. That time of confession (for I was writing out a list of all I could remember having done wrong, reflecting sometimes, scribbling furiously other times) wasn't about making me feel bad; rather the point seemed to involve searing into my mind, the facts about the ugliness of sin - as well as giving me the opportunity to purge the deeply suppressed guilt and shame that must attach to and is the consequence of, sin.


Although I regularly turn away from that view in order to sin, sometimes grossly, oft times easily, the change that happened then is still with me - it's like a door passed through once through which I can never return back through (in the sense of viewing sin differently) whatever about trying to clamber back through the keyhole.

-

I don't know if this is always the sequence of salvation, it probably isn't. Safe to say that one shouldn't rely on any formula in the hope of having God dance on puppet strings.

when you mention formula, are you refering to the Graham formula?

Geomy

generic2012 wrote: »

Can you expand on that a little bit please? I'm quite interested as I can't really imagine what that entails...

Im not sure whether there's a God or not but I feel a powerful connection with nature....
All I can see in Christianity is it's based on man's relationship with humanity rather than everything else. ...

homer911

Geomy wrote: »

Im not sure whether there's a God or not but I feel a powerful connection with nature....
All I can see in Christianity is it's based on man's relationship with humanity rather than everything else. ...

What's the extent of your experience of Christianity?

What Bible Study or Prayer group have you experienced?
What churches have you attended?

Geomy

homer911 wrote: »

What's the extent of your experience of Christianity?

What Bible Study or Prayer group have you experienced?
What churches have you attended?

I won't mention the churches and groups I have tried over the year's. ...

Let's just say it doesn't float my boat...

generic2012

Geomy wrote: »

Im not sure whether there's a God or not but I feel a powerful connection with nature....
All I can see in Christianity is it's based on man's relationship with humanity rather than everything else. ...

What do you mean by a 'connection'? Sorry if it's too personal, I just find it very intriguing!

Geomy

generic2012 wrote: »

What do you mean by a 'connection'? Sorry if it's too personal, I just find it very intriguing!

I just feel more at peace when out walking the rocky roads, hill walking etc
It heightens sensations and I feel very vibrant...
To be away from it all, the churches are man made. ..
The wilderness is shaped by nature...

generic2012

Geomy wrote: »

I just feel more at peace when out walking the rocky roads, hill walking etc
It heightens sensations and I feel very vibrant...
To be away from it all, the churches are man made. ..
The wilderness is shaped by nature...

So naturalism/atheism?

Geomy

Though earth and man were gone,
And suns and universes ceased to be,
And thou were lef alone,
Every existence would exist in Thee...

Geomy

generic2012 wrote: »

So naturalism/atheism?

It would take a long coffee date to explain it all lol

generic2012

You're not so sure of the answer? That's alright, funny how it seems to counter the message of the poem you quoted lol! I hope your able to decide what you believe some day, it's not nice to be in a constant battle with oneself to avoid committing to a truth. Best of luck!

JimiTime

Geomy wrote: »

I just feel more at peace when out walking the rocky roads, hill walking etc
It heightens sensations and I feel very vibrant...
To be away from it all, the churches are man made. ..
The wilderness is shaped by nature...

Christian here, and nature has a profound effect on me. It really does take ones breath away at times. I also feel more at peace when experiencing it. I agree also, that a church is just a church when it is just a place of ritual. A relationship with God is a whole different ballgame though, and just like I love my wife and our companionship, the community aspect of sharing time with fellow Christians is very uplifting, but at times frustrating (What personal relationship isn't I suppose). As Paul said though, "...Love NEVER fails." Kinship is a beautiful thing, and no man is an island as they say. Its the people that make a church. Its the communing together with ones brethren, to build up each other in communion with God. Unfortunately, many mainstream church gatherings are more a ritual than a community event. Never do I forget though, that while all these uplifting aspects etc are very important, its the truth I am there for. Its about my kinship with Christ, and what we do for him as his disciples. These days, there are many that seek to be entertained, for want of a better term. Its like a reaction to years of sombre and boring ritual. While the other side seems to want to make it as sombre and boring as it can to fight against this. I'm a middle ground man. We should never forget why we gather together, but Joy should be the over-riding feeling in our gatherings. There is a place for sombre reflection, for repentance and even sadness, but the hope and joy in the Lord should be the all conquering force IMO.

Geomy

I think Christians should worry about the state of our natural world just as much as their relationship with their fellow man....

After all if God created man, and also created this planet, which is more important to some of ye bricks and mortar or the land and seascape. ..

JimiTime

Geomy wrote: »

I think Christians should worry about the state of our natural world just as much as their relationship with their fellow man....

I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

We were basically given a divine mandate to take care of this beautiful planet of his creation in the beginning though:

Genesis 1

“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.


Unfortunately, some people get carried away with the created, and worship IT, rather than the creator who gave it to us.

Geomy

That's what's wrong, man shouldn't have dominion over anything.

Look at all the damage man has done to this beautiful planet, all because of the holy book gave him permission to divide and conquer. ..

I think it's all gone pinky ponky along the way somewhere. ...

The Native Americans have a better mandate, they thank the spirit of the beast for giving itself up for food...

JimiTime

Geomy wrote: »

That's what's wrong, man shouldn't have dominion over anything.

Look at all the damage man has done to this beautiful planet, all because of the holy book gave him permission to divide and conquer. ..

With all due respect, you really need to educate yourself before you start making the all too common misrepresentative accusations against the 'holy book' tbh.

Man has indeed corrupted himself, as well as the planet, but thats what rebellion against a loving creator does for you. Choosing to follow selfish paths etc.

I think it's all gone pinky ponky along the way somewhere. ...

Yes, that would be when mankind rebelled against their creator.

The Native Americans have a better mandate, they thank the spirit of the beast for giving itself up for food...

Mandate? From who? What spirit is this, and do the beasts, 'give themselves up' for food? Or, like everywhere else, are they not hunted in some cases and slaughtered to be eaten etc in all cases? All seems a bit like shallow, sentimental, new agey nonsense to me.

As a Christian, we are called to respect the life of the animal and not eat its life-blood, as the blood identifies with its life. A life taken as sustenance for us. We do not thank the animal, who does not lay its life out freely for us, but thank God, the creator, the giver of life.

I fear you are carried away with creation, to the point where you think it is greater than you are, when the truth is, you are a creature, divinely unique, in that you were created in the image of God your creator. Yes, mankind cut itself off from God, and corrupted himself and indeed the planet he inherited, but God in his great love has bought us back, and indeed promises another inheritance. A NEW Earth, for this old one will pass away as prophesied. The question is, do you care enough to seek your creator in earnest and honestly, and ponder these things deeper than the sentimental practices of the likes of polynesian folklore? There are many people who believe it arrogant (or at least say they think its arrogant) to think themselves special. But just as I know I was special to my earthly father, I know the special place God has for me as my heavenly Father. No other creature has been created in his image.

Benny_Cake

Geomy wrote: »

That's what's wrong, man shouldn't have dominion over anything.

Look at all the damage man has done to this beautiful planet, all because of the holy book gave him permission to divide and conquer. ..

Probably in danger of going completely off topic here, but I don't think that the environmental crisis we find ourselves in can be pinned on the Bible. The destruction caused by humanity to the environment has happened wherever people have lived, whatever their religion, and we are only now realising the consequences.

I love nature too, I love getting out into the mountains (not as often as I'd like any more unfortunately) and I've often felt an incredible awareness of God's presence there. Christians, like everyone else are becoming aware of the price we have paid for unfettered economic and population growth. Global warming is affecting the poorest people more than anyone else, which is why some churches are getting rid of any investments tied up in fossil fuels. We're not perfect, but we're learning.

Geomy

Ill take back what I said about the holy book if it offended anyone I'm sorry. .., but I think man shouldn't have dominion over the earth. ..

I suggest any Christian with an open mind watch this below

Geomy

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyoEV0OVRY

Joe1919

Geomy wrote: »

I just feel more at peace when out walking the rocky roads, hill walking etc
It heightens sensations and I feel very vibrant...
To be away from it all, the churches are man made. ..
The wilderness is shaped by nature...

I agree to a great extent. There a hill in the midlands with a plaque on top that says it all for me. But I think I am more pantheist than theist or perhaps more 'transtheist'.

Benny_Cake

Geomy wrote: »

Ill take back what I said about the holy book if it offended anyone I'm sorry. .., but I think man shouldn't have dominion over the earth. ..

I didn't find it offensive at all. There is an interesting piece on "dominion" in Genesis here:

http://christopherbrown.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/genesis-128-to-subdue-and-have-dominion-over-creation/

Personally I think that we are called to stewardship of the earth rather than dominion over it. It probably suits some to act as if the planet is ours to use and abuse though.

Geomy

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I didn't find it offensive at all. There is an interesting piece on "dominion" in Genesis here:

http://christopherbrown.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/genesis-128-to-subdue-and-have-dominion-over-creation/

Personally I think that we are called to stewardship of the earth rather than dominion over it. It probably suits some to act as if the planet is ours to use and abuse though.

Did you check out my YouTube link Benny ?

Benny_Cake

Geomy wrote: »

Did you check out my YouTube link Benny ?

I will - on the phone here so I won't have a chance to look at properly until later. John Moriarty was an interesting man.

antiskeptic

mashedbanana wrote: »

when you mention formula, are you refering to the Graham formula?

I suppose I mean any formula since the formula will inevitably be a man-made distillation of how it is God saves man.

But having seen a YouTube video on the Graham Formula (referring to Billy Graham-esque altar calls) I would include such formulae in those that don't necessarily lead to salvation.

Billy Graham himself hoped that maybe 5% of people who responded to his altar calls might be saved through them. Which would indicate he too eschews formulae

lmaopml

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't know if this is always the sequence of salvation, it probably isn't. Safe to say that one shouldn't rely on any formula in the hope of having God dance on puppet strings.

Absolutely love this. Sincerity is important..say what you mean and mean what you say. That's a basic thing.

It's not all about 'personal salvation', but about everybody all the time..there is no 'judge' of the person who honestly seeks Christ but only One judge, the one who knows above all, and is the lover of us inquisitive and at times gentle and other times crazy people...

Personally, I think it's important to just love the best you can every day and above all know where that stems from and give thanks for it, knowing yourself and knowing when you get that 'pang' when you could love more, especially when it's hard to, or just be a Christian to another, and again give thanks for that too.

The notion that Christians are, or see themselves as being 'perfect', or 'rule' people is a farce..so far from the truth. No, they are on a 'journey'...a wise man once said it starts out with a 'first step'..but the 'way' will never change.


God and neighbour are in a Christian heart.

That of course, from a Christian - is an understanding of my God the 'Christian' God - and no other is like Him. I love my Christianity, my faith..my brothers and sisters.

Love rules! Especially when it's not only received, much like repentance/forgiveness but 'given' too...for free - and there are very few who live up to that, myself included, I would fail so badly - but that's why Christ came for us.

We use too many measures sometimes, to our fault - there is a light there, we have to shine it up and let it do what it does best..

hinault

Geomy wrote: »

Can anyone explain, what's the proper way for a person to repent ?

Can it be done on your death bed ?

One must sincerely be sorry for the sins that one has committed.
That is the starting point.

In terms of death bed confessions, the obvious question has to be - what motivates their confession?

If the person on their deathbed is aware that they're in a state of sin - why did they only come to that realisation on their deathbed?

Why weren't they aware of their sinfulness before then?

Perhaps they were aware of their sinfulness before then but deliberately chose to ignore their sinfulness?
If this is the case then their sincerity about their sinfulness must be in doubt.

generic2012

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself? Like, a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers, maybe I'm not reading the right material? It seems like an important point so I must be missing something?

georgieporgy

generic2012 wrote: »

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself? Like, a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers, maybe I'm not reading the right material? It seems like an important point so I must be missing something?

your problem seems to be one of attitude.

It's not so much that you're not reading the right material, more so you're not reading the material right.

antiskeptic

generic2012 wrote: »

Is there any way I can find out the correct method from God himself?

Seems to me like you've hit the nail on the head ... and snookered God.

I mean, would God expect that you believe the ramblings of someone on an internet forum (2013) or the ramblings of a man dressed in robes from a pulpit (1813)? Fantastic claims aren't being evidenced fantastically afterall


This most especially when...

....a lot of the information he gave out seems to be conflicting, and he's not getting back to my prayers..

-

Seems to me that the only person you should appeal to is God, and God alone. And if God doesn't respond and your spirit flags of asking then perhaps remind yourself that you've no one else to turn to. If realising you've no one else to turn to then you've little option but to persevere until such time as he choses to respond to you.

The psalms are full of cries in the wilderness from a man who has known the Lord's presence and misses it.


The man who has never known of the Lord's presence can't miss it but can yearn for it. Yearn for a peace of mind that would come from him taking the helm.

I think the core thing is that God not turn up at our whim, but at the point of our realisation that there are no alternative roads left to travel. The bottom of an alcoholic barrel for some, the bottom of the barrel for everyone else .. who comes to know God.

generic2012

georgieporgy wrote: »

your problem seems to be one of attitude.

It's not so much that you're not reading the right material, more so you're not reading the material right.

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I'm not having a crisis of faith or anything, 'science' just doesn't have the right answers and isn't fulfilling like the one truth, but I'm so confused..

Benny_Cake

generic2012 wrote: »

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I haven't read it yet, but the theologian Marcus Borg has a book called "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally" which is highly recommended. Borg takes what he calls a "historical-metaphorical" approach to the Bible which you may find interesting. Bear in mind that the Bible contains many different books in a variety of literary styles.

generic2012

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I haven't read it yet, but the theologian Marcus Borg has a book called "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally" which is highly recommended. Borg takes what he calls a "historical-metaphorical" approach to the Bible which you may find interesting. Bear in mind that the Bible contains many different books in a variety of literary styles.

But surely if it was meant to be read like that it would have been said somewhere at the time it was written? I doubt God sent Marcus Borg to show how to read the Bible correctly in 2001, that would mean that everyone's been interpreting the Bible wrong for nearly 3,000 years? I don't mean to seem like I'm cutting you down or anything, just trying to explain my thinking on the whole thing.

mashedbanana

generic2012 wrote: »

But surely if it was meant to be read like that it would have been said somewhere at the time it was written? I doubt God sent Marcus Borg to show how to read the Bible correctly in 2001, that would mean that everyone's been interpreting the Bible wrong for nearly 3,000 years? I don't mean to seem like I'm cutting you down or anything, just trying to explain my thinking on the whole thing.

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

Even reading the parables, are quiet simple. My kids understand them, and what it is the story is referring to.

So I never understand the interpreting bit.
I DO on the other hand, know when folk are trying to twist scripture, and make it to be something that it is not. Just cos it fits into their own way of thinking. Makes it more comfortable, and palatable for them. They pick and choose what they want to believe, and for the bits they don't want to except...well they tell you 'Oh no, you got it wrong, this is what it meant'
Even though there is no other piece of scripture to back up what they are saying.

I dont need a Marcus to come along and tell me how to read the Bible. Putting money in his pocket. All I personally need to do is ask the holy Spirit to give me a hand with a piece of verse, open my eyes, and give me clarity, when reading my Bible. It works each and every time. Never failed yet.

(If interpreting, is in reference to language translation, then a Strongs Concordance is the way to go. It has the Hebrew in it too)

generic2012

mashedbanana wrote: »

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

Even reading the parables, are quiet simple. My kids understand them, and what it is the story is referring to.

I'm in exactly the same boat! It's very comforting to know someone thinks the same!!!

What are you views on this part? -

generic2012 wrote: »

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

generic2012 wrote: »

So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

antiskeptic

mashedbanana wrote: »

Ya, I'm with you on this one. But....What I find most confusing, and call me a bit of a eejit, if you must, but I never truly understood what folk meant by 'interpret ing the Bible'.

It's there in black & white. There is zero room for confusion. As a rule, if I don't quite 'get' the meaning of a particular verse, I would read a few of the verses before it and after it. Then it just clicks! I get it.

And when another person applies the same process as you but comes up with a different meaning? What's that called, if not two different interpretations?

georgieporgy

generic2012 wrote: »

I've read the bible the VAST majority of nights since my confirmation (over 10 years ago) and I've read it literally but I don't like some of the ideas, there nice and all but when I have children I don't want to live my life by Genesis 19:8 (“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”), Deut. 28:53 ("Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.") or Leviticus 20:9 ("For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."). If I meet some on the street and hear their conversation, I don't want to have to live by Leviticus 24:16 ("Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.") and Im not comfortable with the bibles teachings on slaves, women and their beating.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but some of the passages seem contradictory to me? Kings 2:11 - "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." and John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.", even the quotes of Jesus - "John 14:27 - “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.” and Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”. I've came across more but you get my point.

I've never seen it anywhere that the bible was to be read metaphorically, that was decided many centuries after the bible was written so either they were wrong at the time the bible was written (taking it literally) or people who interpret it metaphorically now are wrong. So it's obvious reading it metaphorically is wrong. So what am I doing wrong and how do I correct it? Should I kill my wife if she's not a virgin when I marry her, my children if the answer me back, a man who sleeps with another man, people who don't listen to priests, non belivers, people who blaspheme, people who work on the Sabbath etc?

I'm not having a crisis of faith or anything, 'science' just doesn't have the right answers and isn't fulfilling like the one truth, but I'm so confused..

You sound like your a catholic? If so, do you go to weely mass? It's possible your formation is lacking in some areas and you just need to read a few books. With the advent of Christ we have moved on from Old Testament practices (much to the relief of our wives and daughters)

http://www.opusdei.ie/art.php?p=25249

Benedict XVI: read the Bible every day

""Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ." Citing words of St. Jerome, the Holy Father advised all the faithful to read a passage from the Bible each day.

2007/11/19

"To read Scripture is to converse with God: ‘if you are praying,’ Jerome writes to a young noble woman from Rome, ‘you are speaking with the Bridegroom; if you are reading, it is He who is speaking to you.’"

The Pope recalled that for Jerome "an essential method for interpreting Scripture is union with the Church’s magisterium."

"Alone we are not able to read Scripture. We find too many closed doors and are easily mistaken. The Bible was written by the people of God and for the people of God, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," said Benedict XVI.

l Would also recommend http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
as a good reference

generic2012

I am Catholic and I do go to weekly mass. Thanks for the thoughtful response...good info! Again, my dilemma, if the Old Testament was false does that mean everyone before the time of Jesus was wrong? It is also a hol book so I don't think it should be shrugged off, there are passages in the New Testament where statements attributed to Jesus seem to make it clear that he wasn't coming to change anything about the old laws (John 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill") and the New Testament isn't any less uncomforting to me if I'm being honest (Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death, Romans (after talking about fornication, homosexuality, boasting and other sins) - 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.). I could go on but my point is there is no point trying to separate the teachings of both testaments when they are written and taught by the same teacher and teach the same things? I don't think I know any gay people so that's all right and I'll have a good wife but if I'm being a good Christian, in this day and age, with all the temptation and lack of respect in the world, I'd be very surprised if I could let any of my children live past 4, or at the max, 5 years old. I'm getting really demoralised about the future at this stage...

georgieporgy

generic2012 wrote: »

I am Catholic and I do go to weekly mass. Thanks for the thoughtful response...good info! Again, my dilemma, if the Old Testament was false does that mean everyone before the time of Jesus was wrong? It is also a hol book so I don't think it should be shrugged off, there are passages in the New Testament where statements attributed to Jesus seem to make it clear that he wasn't coming to change anything about the old laws (John 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill") and the New Testament isn't any less uncomforting to me if I'm being honest (Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death, Romans (after talking about fornication, homosexuality, boasting and other sins) - 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.). I could go on but my point is there is no point trying to separate the teachings of both testaments when they are written and taught by the same teacher and teach the same things? I don't think I know any gay people so that's all right and I'll have a good wife but if I'm being a good Christian, in this day and age, with all the temptation and lack of respect in the world, I'd be very surprised if I could let any of my children live past 4, or at the max, 5 years old. I'm getting really demoralised about the future at this stage...

You need a good Bible Commentary to refer to when you come accross difficult passages. The best I've seen is the Navarre Bible (University of Navarre, Spain)
http://www.catholiccompany.com/navarre-bible-c466/?numonpage=0

a very readable translation ( in both english and latin) accompanied by an excellent commentary from various church fathers and saints. Each book of the bible can be purchased separately but it works out expensive if you get the whole set (500 euro).
Another good (cheaper)comprehensive source of info for the serious christian is
http://www.amazon.com/In-Conversation-God-Meditations-Volume/dp/0906138191/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372865499&sr=8-1&keywords=in+conversation+with+god

Read that and you will let the kids live!