Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'd like to think this was unbelievable but I certainly believe it.

Ironically Haddington Road+Croke Park could end up increasing absenteeism.

How do other TUI members in your school feel?

Obviously they're not happy but are there any YES voters prepared to admit how wrong they were?

You can be sure that those in the upper echelons of the DES (who drafted this part of the HRA) didn't have a Thursday, Friday & Monday like you've described.

Its the truth unfortunately although I'm sure people will find it hard to believe. Many of the Teachers (including myself) forced into this are doing cover at the rate of 3 classes a week. Thats the reality.

As for increased absenteeism its hard to say. We have nearly 90 Teaching staff so its rare that everybody is in school for one reason or another.

I good number of our staff will opt out when that becomes available but I couldn't put a number on how many will do so yet. We have been informed that we have to work the agreement until a circular letter is issued by the department confirming the "paying not to do work so you can do your real work properly" clause becomes active.
The mood is grim in the Staff room as people realise the implications of the agreement on their time for sure but honestly many of our staff would be ill informed before they voted and many have a "just do what your told" mentality. Sounds harsh but sadly its the truth.
Most in our place seemed to vote NO or at least thats what they said. The vote in the TUI was massively swayed by the third level members anyway.

My honest opinion......I voted NO. Would vote NO tomorrow and would take a paycut to give up the S and S and 33 hours of busy work. I also feel the TUI executive are gutless for not at least recommending a NO vote in the first place.

rafared wrote: »

Its the truth unfortunately although I'm sure people will find it hard to believe. Many of the Teachers (including myself) forced into this are doing cover at the rate of 3 classes a week. Thats the reality.

As for increased absenteeism its hard to say. We have nearly 90 Teaching staff so its rare that everybody is in school for one reason or another.

I good number of our staff will opt out when that becomes available but I couldn't put a number on how many will do so yet. We have been informed that we have to work the agreement until a circular letter is issued by the department confirming the "paying not to do work so you can do your real work properly" clause becomes active.
The mood is grim in the Staff room as people realise the implications of the agreement on their time for sure but honestly many of our staff would be ill informed before they voted and many have a "just do what your told" mentality. Sounds harsh but sadly its the truth.
Most in our place seemed to vote NO or at least thats what they said. The vote in the TUI was massively swayed by the third level members anyway.

My honest opinion......I voted NO. Would vote NO tomorrow and would take a paycut to give up the S and S and 33 hours of busy work. I also feel the TUI executive are gutless for not at least recommending a NO vote in the first place.

I have always appreciated you posting here, telling us your experience of life under the HRA. It sounds exhausting and working as you are [and as I am] in a very large school,it makes sense that people will be constantly caught for S&S as HR and CP hours will obviously increase absenteeism.

While two thirds of secondary teachers still have the chance to remain outside this insane strait jacket, nobody should tire of hearing your feedback rafared.

However, I'd like to hear more about life under HR from other TUI people.This thread used to be buzzing with posts from both ASTI and TUI members before TUI voted for HRA. Now a lot of the TUI contingent have disappeared, and I, for one,would like to know how it's been for them since.

gammy_knees wrote: »

Experience has told me not to offer substitution on a Mon or Fri!!
Of the 12 out, how many are on extra curricular activity? If its a case that teachers are out doing sports, etc. and your workload is increased, I feel its time for a debate in each school as to whether extra curricular should be done or not. If a teacher wants to spend their time training after school that's up to them but don't expect me to give my free time for these activities. And don't let anyone give me the BLEEDING heart argument "What about the children?" From what I see many have plenty of activity outside school as well.
Are any posters here from the schools listed by the DES as over quota? I think it would be very interesting to hear their opinion.

You might have a job keeping that going when you have to add 5 to the roster like I had recently.
I have no idea what the absent people were doing and no time to find out either to be honest.

acequion wrote: »

My ballot paper arrived today. Have others got theirs?

Mine arrived today but there is no information on when the paper has to be returned by?

Red Hare wrote: »

Mine arrived today but there is no information on when the paper has to be returned by?

The important thing is I voted NO anyhow.

42inchchest wrote: »

Isn't on the back of the ballot paper? Mine already posted back so cant check. A definite "No" by the way..:)

ps think it was a return date of 18th Dec

Yea I think it is on the back of the ballot paper, I only scanned at it becuase I don't care its going back tomorrow with a NO on it but I think on the back on the ballot paper I saw something about 5.30 deadline etc. like I said didnt read it but there was definately something on it, its already in the sealed envelope so I can't check either

Pat King visited our staffroom today to encourage a yes vote. He used all the scaremongering tactics in the book, schools will be closed, teachers won't be paid, we will earn less than teachers in the HRA FOREVER, we already are according to him, increment freezes, redundancies etc, all doom and gloom. We are a small staff but for sure he scared all but perhaps two into voting yes because we have no option but to do so basically. If he continues to visit schools with this garbage, a yes vote will be a certainty. After all the tales of doom he begged teachers to vote this time and do it now, in other words vote Yes now. Teachers who had previously voted No decided to vote Yes. I sent off my NO vote but I'd say it will be a substantial Yes vote this time. By the way he said we wouldn't have to make up Croke Park Hours missed, just continue as we had planned from January on.

km79 wrote: »

He also visited our staff room for an hour and a half after school. He was clearly taken aback and caught by surprise at the anger and frustration he faced. A lot of it directed at his role in this . he had very few answers to anything substantial that was put to him. He clearly wants a yes vote. Very disheartening. HE JUST DOES NOT GET IT.
However the fact that the vast majority of staff stayed behind and most voiced their opinion (both young and old) was very very encouraging. It will be a NO in our school but he did note not all schools were as militant as ours.......

The word I'm hearing is that ALL senior ASTI officials are out of head office and into schools with the purpose being to push for a YES vote.

King went into negotiations after we rejected Haddington Road and came out with a pay cut that wasn't in the original.

That's the level of his negotiating ability.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The word I'm hearing is that ALL senior ASTI officials are out of head office and into schools with the purpose being to push for a YES vote.

King went into negotiations after we rejected Haddington Road and came out with a pay cut that wasn't in the original.

That's the level of his negotiating ability.

A number of us had been in contact with him via email. We made it clear we were voting NO. If that's what he really wanted then he would not have needed to visit our school. It was clear he was hoping to come and sway a few doubters. He got a nasty nasty surprise! Its kind of ridiculous we are having to fight against the man whose wages we pay.....and as for the president who was also in attendance. Well I'll just say she is a terrible terrible speaker and leave it at that. And to think if we do vote NO these 2 will be the ones we rely on in future negotiations !

Pwpane wrote: »

Maybe they have a point? Everyone out of step but our Johnnie, and all that.

Don't jump on me but if all of the leadership is pro agreement this time then maybe we're so caught up in the moment that we're missing something.

Can't see it myself but anyone care to play devil's advocate for a while?

There's no hidden angle here.

After all the voting is done and if it's a YES then we'll be doing the extra 88 hours, the additional workload because of the abolished Junior Cert and taking the further cuts.

They'll be back in head office just issuing statements on the ASTI website for the next three years as Quinn continues to destroy the profession.

Their salaries will remain untouched whilst we pay 1769 per annum for the next 20-30 years to NOT DO A JOB!

They feel they have to go and sell their YES because they've done such an awful job in negotiations.

TUI here but I'd just like to encourage the ASTI members to stay strong. I wish I could be standing with you because this is disgraceful, between teachers being openly and directly threatened and the ASTI leadership openly pushing a yes vote even though they know it isn't what the members want and that nothing has changed since the last vote. I have never been so angry at how teachers are being treated. It'll be a brave member of FG or Labour who darkens my door at the next general election.

If Haddington Road is rejected again then it will become mandatory from 17 January. . . and UNPAID.

So Quinn announces he's going to use FEMPI on the day of the impressive PISA results.

That's Quinn's thank you message to ASTI members.

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR13-02-03D.html

I honestly thought I was unshockable at this stage,but I must admit to being gobsmacked at the level of bullying from Quinn and co. over the last few days. First they threaten redundancies, using their mouth piece rag,the Indo, to scream out a scaremongering headline yesterday. Then, today, they issue a press statement indicating that they will change our conditions under FEMPI! And all this before a democratic vote! I mean what kind of police state are we living in?

Only one answer to these bullies, NO,NO and a thousand times NO!!

And then roll on the next election so we can annihilate this joke of a Labour party!

What will happen now is that the ASTI might announce that is it possible they will direct their members to not participate in S&S on 17 January and thereafter if Haddington Road is rejected.

The JMB and NAPD will then announce they'll have to close schools etc. . .

All of this appears co-ordinated to bully a YES vote out of the ASTI