Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

whiteandlight

The previous thread has become unwieldy.

Haddington Road has been accepted by all teachers unions except the ASTI who are now in an industrial dispute. Haddington Road affects all second level schools including the TUI and non union members.

Please continue the discussion here.

Warning:
1. Stay on topic
2. No trolling
3. No personal attacks/abuse

Please read the forum rules if you are unsure.

Red Hare

I think its really important that all teachers stick together - ASTI and TUI and non- unionised. The government would only love to see us at each others throats. We are more powerful together!

newfrontier

Principal asking what union are you in question? led to an interesting discussion , surely non union members have the right to accept or reject HRA and accept consequences , automatically deemed to be as outside HRA seems unfair. Do they not have a choice too?

km79

newfrontier wrote: »

Principal asking what union are you in question? led to an interesting discussion , surely non union members have the right to accept or reject HRA and accept consequences , automatically deemed to be as outside HRA seems unfair. Do they not have a choice too?

They could choose to join the TUI and pay the annual subscription I suppose ?

evolving_doors

newfrontier wrote: »

Principal asking what union are you in question? led to an interesting discussion , surely non union members have the right to accept or reject HRA and accept consequences , automatically deemed to be as outside HRA seems unfair. Do they not have a choice too?

Or they could chose to ask the principal in question why do they want to know first?
Just from reading the threads here on the various union directives and counter rumours it appears that out has been left to school management to decide if the school should be split or go with the ASTI crowd.

Also have the schools been advised what to do with non union members...or even have they been advised as to the manner in which they will find out who is in what union.... Seems to me that you dont have to tell your principal nout! Its yor own businesses what organisation you join outside school hours?

gammy_knees

The story is this folks. We'll just have to wait for the dept. circular to be issued and then both unions directives. Otherwise its all speculation. Union reps should not be giving info to school authorities (well I know this of TUI reps being one myself).
See you all after the circular and budget!!

evolving_doors

gammy_knees wrote: »

The story is this folks. We'll just have to wait for the dept. circular to be issued and then both unions directives. Otherwise its all speculation. Union reps should not be giving info to school authorities (well I know this of TUI reps being one myself).
See you all after the circular and budget!!

You said it fella no point in speculation til circular arrives... In the meantime
.tell em nothing...

teacherhead

I saw an email from TUI the other day looking from details of the calendar of Croke Park hours usage.

Not sure why they're taking an interest in this all of a sudden. Though it may be relevant to split union schools should any rescheduling be afoot.

ethical

Was informed by a colleague that the Sindo(i refuse to buy the publication anymore) had an article from Colm O' Rourke,School Principal and GAA pundit today that had a go at ASTI,stating that he himself was non-union................the article actually went on to make some sense saying that he thinks Croke Park hrs are a waste of time and that they were taking from the time teachers put into games and other extra curriculars.Its a shame that the good pro-teacher stuff was buried underneath a 'bash the teacher ' headline.

Outsidethebox

teacherhead wrote: »

I saw an email from TUI the other day looking from details of the calendar of Croke Park hours usage.

Not sure why they're taking an interest in this all of a sudden. Though it may be relevant to split union schools should any rescheduling be afoot.

Who was this sent to?

If I pm you me email could you forward it to me?

eb2013

ethical wrote: »

Was informed by a colleague that the Sindo(i refuse to buy the publication anymore) had an article from Colm O' Rourke,School Principal and GAA pundit today that had a go at ASTI,stating that he himself was non-union................the article actually went on to make some sense saying that he thinks Croke Park hrs are a waste of time and that they were taking from the time teachers put into games and other extra curriculars.Its a shame that the good pro-teacher stuff was buried underneath a 'bash the teacher ' headline.

Funny how he is the principal of an alll asti school. I'm sure his staff can read between the lines there!!!!
I'd say they're delighted-NOT

Terri26

According to Wikipedia he owes 800k due to a failed attempt at being a property developer. He has some cheek lecturing us.

teacherhead

Terri26 wrote: »

According to Wikipedia he owes 800k due to a failed attempt at being a property developer. He has some cheek lecturing us.

Wikipedia is hardly gospel now either. He has a bit of a neck all the same. On his extra earnings from rte it's easy to be comfortable. Like that Clive Byrne in the NAPD calling for a pay cut last year... I'm not sure if he was speaking in a personal capacity or not but it boiled my blood.

It sends the message that principals and deputies want a cut for teachers. Dreadful stuff.

teacherhead

Outsidethebox wrote: »

Who was this sent to?

If I pm you me email could you forward it to me?

Branch secretaries afaik, was forwarded on to me by the branch sec. Came from area rep.

eb2013

He does owe millions due to a failed property deal...ironically the Independent reported on it and so did local newspapers in Meath, it's fairly common knowledge around his neck of the woods. He has been on quite a few times bashing the ordinary teacher. Imo he should be sacked, he has no business double jobbing for RTE, the Indo on top of running a school of 800 pupils.
I'm sure he wouldn't be happy if all his teachers had two or three other jobs as well. What a joke!

km79

Brendan Howlin has indicated that s and s will not be paid to asti members and that they may reenter talks. As I said last week another ballot on a very similar deal will be balloted and accepted in next few months. I know this seems pessimistic but teachers resolve in my school has already weakened....long term thinking seems to have gone out the window

Peter Flynt

km79 wrote: »

Brendan Howlin has indicated that s and s will not be paid to asti members and that they may reenter talks. As I said last week another ballot on a very similar deal will be balloted and accepted in next few months. I know this seems pessimistic but teachers resolve in my school has already weakened....long term thinking seems to have gone out the window

Most could probably predict that S&S will not be paid for.

If the ASTI are forced to re-ballot then there is no respect for the democratic process from politicians in Ireland.

Voting until the "right result" is produced is ridiculous.

km79

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Most could probably predict that S&S will not be paid for.

If the ASTI are forced to re-ballot then there is no respect for the democratic process from politicians in Ireland.

Voting until the "right result" is produced is ridiculous.

Will they honour the promise to pay for work done until they pull it though .....

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

Brendan Howlin has indicated that s and s will not be paid to asti members and that they may reenter talks. As I said last week another ballot on a very similar deal will be balloted and accepted in next few months. I know this seems pessimistic but teachers resolve in my school has already weakened....long term thinking seems to have gone out the window

Nice 2 it is then! Govt and Asti negotiators must be happy with that decision (by brendan howlin!) What the hell was all that take it or leave stuff...what was the point of the ballot in the first place?

Peter Flynt

Armelodie wrote: »

Nice 2 it is then! Govt and Asti negotiators must be happy with that decision (by brendan howlin!) What the hell was all that take it or leave stuff...what was the point of the ballot in the first place?

Say No again. . .Simple!

ytareh

km79 wrote: »

Brendan Howlin has indicated that s and s will not be paid to asti members and that they may reenter talks. As I said last week another ballot on a very similar deal will be balloted and accepted in next few months. I know this seems pessimistic but teachers resolve in my school has already weakened....long term thinking seems to have gone out the window

I wouldnt be so sure of that ...I reckon some of us are getting pretty fed up of being reballoted and bullied.It could go either way ...They got a bloodied nose on the referendum after all.

km79

ytareh wrote: »

I wouldnt be so sure of that ...I reckon some of us are getting pretty fed up of being reballoted and bullied.It could go either way ...They got a bloodied nose on the referendum after all.

I would hope so especially if (as I suspect) they go in for talks and come back out with pretty much the same deal and recommend acceptance. Even that in itself would be enough to sway a lot of members

Peter Flynt

km79 wrote: »

Brendan Howlin has indicated that s and s will not be paid to asti members and that they may reenter talks. As I said last week another ballot on a very similar deal will be balloted and accepted in next few months. I know this seems pessimistic but teachers resolve in my school has already weakened....long term thinking seems to have gone out the window

Howlin will announce that no teachers will be paid for S&S at the Budget next week [Tuesday Oct 15]. . . Giving all the crap about "budgetary targets" whilst the multi-billion euro horse racing industry continues to go untaxed.

Matthew712

No need for talks if they can use FEMPI to make S&S unpaid and compulsory. The more likely truth is that FEMPI cannot be used to change the contract of ASTI members, as their contract is with the school not the state. They state is only the paymaster. So it can refuse payment, but cannot compel the work to be done.

Peter Flynt

Matthew712 wrote: »

No need for talks if they can use FEMPI to make S&S unpaid and compulsory. The more likely truth is that FEMPI cannot be used to change the contract of ASTI members, as their contract is with the school not the state. They state is only the paymaster. So it can refuse payment, but cannot compel the work to be done.

Here's what it says in FEMPI:

The Bill includes:
• clarification that the existing powers of Ministers of the Government or other bodies that may set terms and conditions of employment of public servants may be exercised so as to reduce the remuneration or increase the working time of those public servants,

A new section 2B is inserted in to the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009. This provides that an existing power to fix terms and conditions may be exercised by the relevant employer or Minister of the Government so as to result in less favourable remuneration, other than core salary, or in increased hours for the public servants concerned, notwithstanding any of the terms of any enactment, contract or otherwise provided for.

Matthew712

So why are they not doing it? Is S&S core pay? ... pensionable. Can the Act be used to attack one distinct group? Can it be used during a legal trade dispute? Has CP ( a legal agreement) been broken?

acequion

km79 wrote: »

I would hope so especially if (as I suspect) they go in for talks and come back out with pretty much the same deal and recommend acceptance. Even that in itself would be enough to sway a lot of members

Don't forget that any crumbs Pat King brings back from talks has to first go through the CEC, who decide on re-ballot and with what recommendation.The CEC have not let us down so far, so why would they do so now? And why would the all the No voters suddenly get cold feet and do a u turn? Oh,indeed,some would, but not necessarily enough for a swing towards yes.There's no necessity to be so pessimistic.

doc_17

What's the story with the pension contributions we all made that we're calculated on S&S payments? Are they lost?

acequion

I'd be very pissed off if I were a teacher in Colm O Rourke's school. An appalling article, the guy is a Judas to his staff and to the profession. He also says that it isn't necessary to be in a union, that we're all protected by labour laws. Yeah right! His non /anti union stance sings nicely to the tune of his paymasters in the pro establishment media where he does his double and triple jobbing.

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

What's the story with the pension contributions we all made that we're calculated on S&S payments? Are they lost?

That's one of the reasons I kept going with it this year.....been doing it for nearly 10 years so I did not want to drop out for the sake of probably a few months and risk losing those contributions if there is any chance of us getting them back !

teacherhead

TUI are seeking the implementation of the reduced CID terms for teachers already in their fourth year. This is at the same time as they are directing members not to cooperate with alteration of the s&s rota.

Enjoying their cake.

Peter Flynt

teacherhead wrote: »

TUI are seeking the implementation of the reduced CID terms for teachers already in their fourth year. This is at the same time as they are directing members not to cooperate with alteration of the s&s rota.

Enjoying their cake.

Where's the solidarity with their ASTI colleagues on this one?

They're happy to go home early - in so-called "solidarity" with ASTI members.

Yet they're also happy to ensure they want to implement parts of the HRA which they fell will benefit their members only. . . . whichof course, they're entitled to do.

Just seems they want to do the "solidarity" thing when it involves them going home early.

spurious

Looks like we're already doing the official side's job, making snide remarks about colleagues.

Peter Flynt

spurious wrote: »

Looks like we're already doing the official side's job, making snide remarks about colleagues.

Aw come on. . .The TUI are clearly hypocritical here.

spurious

When did I get to go home early?
I did two late evenings last week, have another one this Thursday and yet another next Tuesday.

Where is this option to bazz off early?

Peter Flynt

spurious wrote: »

When did I get to go home early?
I did two late evenings last week, have another one this Thursday and yet another next Tuesday.

Where is this option to bazz off early?

You know quite well that some meetings in mixed TUI/ASTI schools that are termed 'whole school' are not occurring as TUI members are showing 'solidarity' with ASTI members. Maybe you're in a TUI only school.

The late meetings to which you refer are Croke Park meetings. . .which your union signed up to.

whiteandlight

Peter Flynt wrote: »

You know quite well that some meetings in mixed TUI/ASTI schools that are termed 'whole school' are not occurring as TUI members are showing 'solidarity' with ASTI members. Maybe you're in a TUI only school.

The late meetings to which you refer are Croke Park meetings. . .which your union signed up to.

Let's be fair here, going to those meetings would be pretty akin to crossing a picket line. Would you prefer TUI did that? Or continued the meetings in which case your action would have little effect?

neverfinished

Isn't getting a CID a year earlier one of the few benefits to teachers of this new deal. I'm very glad they are fighting for it immediately. The government always get their benefits from their deals with us as soon as it goes through.

Peter Flynt

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Let's be fair here, going to those meetings would be pretty akin to crossing a picket line. Would you prefer TUI did that? Or continued the meetings in which case your action would have little effect?

Personally I believe that TUI members should be doing all meetings as their union signed up for them after effectively more-or-less campaigning for a YES vote.

Perhaps if TUI members do these meetings (whilst their ASTI colleagues are not) then they will be less inclined to sign up for the next "agreement" in 2016 - which will surely continue to erode away the profession.

I would not consider TUI members attending these meetings as "crossing the picket line"

Peter Flynt

neverfinished wrote: »

Isn't getting a CID a year earlier one of the few benefits to teachers of this new deal. I'm very glad they are fighting for it immediately. The government always get their benefits from their deals with us as soon as it goes through.

Sure TUI members in schools on their fourth year with no CID should be up there demanding their CID?

I really wonder about the value of this proposal though. Clearly if you don't have your own hours then you won't be getting a CID. . .

doc_17

Peter Flynt wrote: »

You know quite well that some meetings in mixed TUI/ASTI schools that are termed 'whole school' are not occurring as TUI members are showing 'solidarity' with ASTI members. Maybe you're in a TUI only school.

The late meetings to which you refer are Croke Park meetings. . .which your union signed up to.

They're also not occurring as schoolanagwment have postponed them indefinitely until a resolution with the ASTI can be found.

whiteandlight

But wouldn't you acknowledge that if TUI do it significantly decreases the effect of ASTI industrial action?

Peter Flynt

doc_17 wrote: »

They're also not occurring as schoolanagwment have postponed them indefinitely until a resolution with the ASTI can be found.

So TUI members in mixed TUI/ASTI schools are getting the best of both worlds?

They're getting the limited benefits of signing up to Haddington Road and they're getting their after school meetings cancelled as well (that is they're getting the benefits of their colleagues not signing up to HR)?

They're also not doing the S&S until the circular is released . . . which will probably force ASTI members to do it for free.

What will they do if the ASTI refuse to do S&S for free? . . . Join them "in solidarity".

Win-Win for them.

Peter Flynt

Musicmental85 wrote: »

But wouldn't you acknowledge that if TUI do it significantly decreases the effect of ASTI industrial action?

Then why vote yes then?

I would have much preferred if both unions voted NO.

Can you acknowledge that this may annoy ASTI members?

whiteandlight

I can, but not to the extent it appears to annoy you. I am TUI because I don't have a choice. I voted no and encouraged/campaigned for a no vote in my school. As has been mentioned a lot on this thread it appears we were at the mercy of Third level.

However if it was vice versa I would't begrudge my colleagues the extra hour. At this stage there is no sign of progress either on those in HR or those out so I personally feel its a non-issue. If the TUI and ASTI stand together on this at least there is more impact


On a different note, if IMO are striking have they broken HR/Croke Park??

doc_17

Peter Flynt wrote: »

So TUI members in mixed TUI/ASTI schools are getting the best of both worlds?

They're getting the limited benefits of signing up to Haddington Road and they're getting their after school meetings cancelled as well (that is they're getting the benefits of their colleagues not signing up to HR)?

They're also not doing the S&S until the circular is released . . . which will probably force ASTI members to do it for free.

What will they do if the ASTI refuse to do S&S for free? . . . Join them "in solidarity".

Win-Win for them.

TUI members are doing S&S. I don't know why you would think they aren't. You really seem to want to have a go at TUI members here. I don't know what you think you'll get out if it or who will benefit from it.

doc_17

If ASTI win concessions from their action I'd say fair play to them. And I wouldn't be annoyed if the TUI didn't get them. Fortune favours the bold and all that.

Moody_mona

Non s and a Tui members in my school are not doing s and a until the circular has been released. And tui members who have normally complied with s and see are still doing the original amount, it has not been increased to specifying five class periods etc. I agree about tui members having their cake and eating it. I'm in a dual school and my colleagues will be leaving on staff planning days at the same time as me, with their new cids and their increments in a few months time. Not fair.

whiteandlight

TUI haven't got the CIDs or the increments yet?

doc_17

Moody_mona wrote: »

Non s and a Tui members in my school are not doing s and a until the circular has been released. And tui members who have normally complied with s and see are still doing the original amount, it has not been increased to specifying five class periods etc. I agree about tui members having their cake and eating it. I'm in a dual school and my colleagues will be leaving on staff planning days at the same time as me, with their new cids and their increments in a few months time. Not fair.

Yeah but again that isn't really their fault. Until the government release the circular people who had opted out can't do S&S.

Some of the posts by the ASTI members here are extremely disappointing. I voted against it. I didn't want the cake, but I'm being forced to eat it anyway.

whiteandlight

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah but again that isn't really their fault. Until the government release the circular people who had opted out can't do S&S.

Some of the posts by the ASTI members here are extremely disappointing. I voted against it. I didn't want the cake, but I'm being forced to eat it anyway.

Agreed. At the moment TUI have had none of Haddington road implemented, good or bad so the jealousy is unfounded.

And apart from anything else Teachers should stand together. Begrudging one hour a week when every teacher is working enormous hours isn't going to help the ASTI in their battle