Religious child

smacl · 19-11-2013 01:34PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Basically my point is people on the previous page have claimed the child is being taught that their parents are going to burn in hell and that catholicism is a psycologically scarring religion. I just wanted to point out the ideas of hell arent exclusive to catholiscm, so by that rationale 50-80% of the world population must be mentally scarred for life. I just feel people use extreme examples to make a point as to why the child in question should be directed away from a religion she has chosen to explore. As you said yourself all that fire and brimstone style of eternal damnation is actually a small minority and there's not really that much hell and damnation being taught anymore. .

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. I'm probably getting a bit off topic.

You seem to be missing the point somewhat here. Someone is indoctrinating a young child with catholic dogma, which many people here feel has the potential to be harmful. Your assertion was that 80% of the worlds population are indoctrinated with similar dogma, yet what harm has it done them? My point is that of the rather tenuous figure of 80% relates to the nominal religion of the worlds population, but even a small cursory inspection of the figures for a country such as Ireland shows that the number of people that actually practice their nominated religion is a fraction of the total and in rapid decline. In terms of considering the potential damage caused by Catholicism to a young Irish girl, the world demographic for how many people are nominally religious is of no value whatsoever.

If you look at polls by none less than the iona institute, who are tasked with promoting religion in this country, less than half believe that the teachings of the Catholic church are still of benefit, and notably

Iona Institute wrote:

Indeed, only 27% of all Catholics have a favourable view of the Church at present.

These are the figures reported back by the group tasked with promoting Catholicism in Ireland! To me it seems that a very large proportion of Catholics seem to think that teaching Catholicism isn't good for you either, so the assertion that teaching it to a young child without the consent of her parents as being damaging seems reasonable.

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 02:07PM

If 50%-80% per cent of the world are/were deemed to be a part of a religion , (as your source states), is it not ok to assume then that, at some stage in their lives, they would have been taught the beiliefs of that religion? Whether they practice or not now is irrelevant. They have been taught about 'hell' and torment and punishment for bad deeds at some stage. Are they psycologically damaged becuse of it? I would say a resounding No. Some reject it as fairy tales like many here do. Some accept it. Some couldnt care less.
People have used an extreme ,and as you admitted yourself, outdated example of the catholic doctrine to push their own agenda. On the other hand one could argue the catholic church also teaches forgiveness, charity, love etc etc. Yet this is forgotten admist the fire and brimstone.

With regards that survey. Only 27% have a favourable view of the church at present. If you look at the second page of that report it asks why. Reasons given are child abuse scandal, history/structure, cover-ups and loss of trust. No sign of psycological damaging doctrine.

With regard teachings - 31% think catholicism is of no benefit to society...however a larger number 46% think it is.... so, can I not also say, like you did... the assertion that teaching it to a young child without the consent of her parents as being damaging seems unreasonable ??

smacl · 19-11-2013 02:43PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

With regards that survey. Only 27% have a favourable view of the church at present. If you look at the second page of that report it asks why. Reasons given are child abuse scandal, history/structure, cover-ups and loss of trust. No sign of psycological damaging doctrine.

So your best advice is let the young girl become a Catholic by all means, but under no circumstances let her anywhere near a church, because that's where all the other Catholics think that those higher up in the organisations hierarchy are committing acts of child abuse, covering up their various crimes, and are basically untrustworthy. Nice

Face it, a religion where the majority of adherents don't even trust their own hierarchy (arguably with good reason), isn't going anywhere in a hurry. A religion controlled by a male dominated church riddled with a history of deceit and abuse is hardly a good choice for an impressionable young girl. I also suspect that much of the abuse stems from the psychologically damaging doctrine, such as enforced celibacy and childlessness for priests and nuns. If the kid was determined on exploring Christianity, she'd probably be better off with one of the more moderate strains of Protestantism, where they allow women in all the ranks of the hierarchy and encourage them to have families. Even then, I wouldn't be encouraging it.

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 03:01PM

smacl wrote: »

So your best advice is let the young girl become a Catholic by all means, but under no circumstances let her anywhere near a church, because that's where all the other Catholics think that those higher up in the organisations hierarchy are committing acts of child abuse, covering up their various crimes, and are basically untrustworthy. Nice

Eh, where did i say that? You linked an iona survey as justification for her being pulled from catholicism based on the fact that 31% of people think their beliefs arent beneficial to society, therfore it would be reasonable to assume their teachings were harmful. I just commented on what those findings were. I dont know how you came to that conclusion above but eh... well done. Everyone to their own. This girl being a case in point.

Banbh · 19-11-2013 03:14PM

Someone is getting at that kid and telling her not to listen to her parents.
If she were my child, I'd find out who and put a stop to it.

Piliger · 19-11-2013 03:17PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

With regards that survey. Only 27% have a favourable view of the church at present. If you look at the second page of that report it asks why. Reasons given are child abuse scandal, history/structure, cover-ups and loss of trust. No sign of psycological damaging doctrine.

You appear to be unaware that the Church does not equal Religion. Two completely different things.

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 03:23PM

Piliger wrote: »

You appear to be unaware that the Church does not equal Religion. Two completely different things.

How so?
The very reason I highlighted "The Church" was to show it is different from religion. Was that not plainly obvious to you?

smacl · 19-11-2013 04:20PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Eh, where did i say that? You linked an iona survey as justification for her being pulled from catholicism based on the fact that 31% of people think their beliefs arent beneficial to society, therfore it would be reasonable to assume their teachings were harmful. I just commented on what those findings were. I dont know how you came to that conclusion above but eh... well done. Everyone to their own. This girl being a case in point.

Nope. I pointed out that only 27% of Irish Catholics have a favourible view of their church, and that the majority are concerned about child abuse and institution wide cover ups of the same within that church. That's hardly a recommendation of somewhere you'd send a young girl now is it?

Iona Institute wrote:

Middle aged Irish people have the most unfavourable view of the Catholic Church

Iona Institute wrote:

Only 27% of all Catholics have a favourable view of the
Church at present.

Iona Institute wrote:

The scandal over child abuse has driven the unfavourable view of the church among both Catholics and non-Catholics in
Ireland.

Iona Institute wrote:

42% of the population believe that more than 21% of Irish priests are guilty of child abuse. 18% believe that it is more than 50%.

Again note this is from the Iona Institute who are on the side of the Catholic church in this country, and their data is about as conservative as you'll find on the subject.

Piliger · 19-11-2013 04:29PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

How so?
The very reason I highlighted "The Church" was to show it is different from religion. Was that not plainly obvious to you?

Yet you still stated " If you look at the second page of that report it asks why. Reasons given are child abuse scandal, history/structure, cover-ups and loss of trust. No sign of psycological damaging doctrine." ?

Is the nonsense of this statement, after agreeing that religion is not the same as the church, not plainly obvious to you ?

Banbh · 19-11-2013 05:02PM

it's not obvious to me. What point are you making?

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 05:06PM

smacl wrote: »

Nope. I pointed out that only 27% of Irish Catholics have a favourible view of their church, and that the majority are concerned about child abuse and institution wide cover ups of the same within that church. That's hardly a recommendation of somewhere you'd send a young girl now is it?

Again note this is from the Iona Institute who are on the side of the Catholic church in this country, and their data is about as conservative as you'll find on the subject.

I dont know why you're quoting the survey because I've read it and I'm not disputing any of it. The answers are there in black and white. You used the percentages to show how "the church" doesnt work for people, I used them to show how "the teachings" works for the majority of them.

I never recommended the girl in question to be sent anywhere. I'll leave that up to the rest of ye to make that judgement call on her behalf.
I'd leave her make up her own mind. When she reaches a critical thinking age she'll be able to decypher whats works for her.

Turtwig · 19-11-2013 05:10PM

Assuming she'll actually be capable of critical thinking.

Sulla Felix · 19-11-2013 05:36PM

Disputed or not, I'm not sure what difference the 80% figure makes to the matter at hand.
Just because lots of people have been indoctrinated or taught about a hell of eternal punishment doesn't mean the practise should continue or that people who find it reprehensible shouldn't fight it at every turn.
Not seeing the wood for the trees imo,

smacl · 19-11-2013 05:36PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I dont know why you're quoting the survey because I've read it and I'm not disputing any of it. The answers are there in black and white. You used the percentages to show how "the church" doesnt work for people, I used them to show how "the teachings" works for the majority of them.

But the survey doesn't show any such thing. Only 46% believed Catholic teachings are still of benefit to Irish society, 31% believed they weren't and the remainder were undecided. More than half of the 46% (26% overall) only slightly agree that the teachings of the church are of benefit, with just 20% strongly believing the statement to be true. How exactly does that equate to a majority?

I never recommended the girl in question to be sent anywhere. I'll leave that up to the rest of ye to make that judgement call on her behalf.
I'd leave her make up her own mind. When she reaches a critical thinking age she'll be able to decypher whats works for her.

But if you believe she hasn't yet acquired the faculty for critical thinking, you're implying someone other than the parents is already influencing those decisions, or do you like J C believe the hand of God has entered the fray?

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 05:46PM

smacl wrote: »

But the survey doesn't show any such thing. Only 46% believed Catholic teachings are still of benefit to Irish society, 31% believed they weren't and the remainder were undecided. More than half of the 46% (26% overall) only slightly agree that the teachings of the church are of benefit, with just 20% strongly believing the statement to be true. How exactly does that equate to a majority?

The survey does show such a thing. You can dress it up how you want but the fact remains that 46%>31% ...hence the majority. Its simple math really.

Piliger · 19-11-2013 06:20PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

The survey does show such a thing. You can dress it up how you want but the fact remains that 46%>31% ...hence the majority. Its simple math really.

Did I fall asleep and wake up after the word majority was reinvented ??

smacl · 19-11-2013 06:23PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

The survey does show such a thing. You can dress it up how you want but the fact remains that 46%>31% ...hence the majority. Its simple math really.

Rubbish. 54% of the people polled either don't believe Catholic teachings are of benefit to society or are unsure. That does not represent a majority believing the teachings are of benefit, 46 being less than 54 and all that. The survey states;

Almost half of the general public believe Catholic teachings are of benefit to society.

Almost sounding better than less than in this context while meaning the same thing.

PopePalpatine · 19-11-2013 06:35PM

I wonder how that question asking for people's views on "Catholic teaching" was phrased. I don't believe for a second that 46% of those polled agree with the Church's view on sexuality.

smacl · 19-11-2013 07:21PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I wonder how that question asking for people's views on "Catholic teaching" was phrased. I don't believe for a second that 46% of those polled agree with the Church's view on sexuality.

The text was;

Iona survey wrote:

Q. To what extent do you agree or disagree with the statement: Despite the scandals, Catholic teachings are still of benefit to Irish society

My reading of it is that those who didn't say yes to such a direct question have pretty much abandoned the Catholic church, if not their faith. It's only a thousand people polled, which is a small enough sample. I was astounded that Iona would actually publish a study that showed only 27% of the Irish population were in favour of the Catholic church. Something of a nail in the coffin I would have thought, though possibly an intentional kick-up the arse to the bishops to get their house in order if they intend to maintain their positions of privilege.

Piliger · 19-11-2013 08:00PM

These 'surveys' by dishonest and biased organisations like Iona are hardly worth the paper they are printed.

But even if we were to accept their 'claims', it is clear that even according to them the majority of Irish people do not think the teaching of the catholic church are beneficial in any way to the country - a damming indictment of this criminal organisation. It also says a) that 46% of those questioned would be happy or indifferent if the catholic church disappeared from the country .... and b) 74% have no issue with the hostility of the Gov toward this organisation ... and c) the majority of Irish people think that more than a fifth of priests are GUILTY of child abuse.

Where was this 'survey' carried out ? outside the gates of churches on a Sunday ? I wouldn't be surprised. Ten people at each of 100 churches ... wow ... a great sample !! And clearly a LOT of 15 to 17 year olds were questioned and everyone knows that kids of that age tend to think of themselves as extensions of their parents. if their parents are catholic in the way that they think of themselves as white or Irish or middle class.

nozzferrahhtoo · 20-11-2013 08:54AM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

If 50%-80% per cent of the world are/were deemed to be a part of a religion , (as your source states), is it not ok to assume then that, at some stage in their lives, they would have been taught the beiliefs of that religion?

I would not make that assumption at all. Both history and my personal experience would seem to go against it.

For example for much of history the Bible was kept untranslated in a language inaccessible to the common joe on the street. The church very much did not want people to learn anything about their religion except what they were spoon fed by the clergy.

In my experience today some of the core beliefs of many religions are as clear as mud to the followers. For example during my experimentation of consecrated catholic Eucharists I spoke with many Catholics and while I have nothing but anecdotal experience to go on here my experience very much was that Catholics are entirely unsure of what the "host" even is. Many believed it was an entirely symbolic ceremony. Many others believed it was more than that and the "host" was changed in some spiritual but conveniently undetectable way. While yet another groups, those whom my experiments were actually aimed at, believed a real world literal change of some sort occurred.

Whatever the actual beliefs of the church itself, it is clear to me that whole swaths of the followers of that church have NOT had the beliefs of their own religion made clear to them.

My experience with the Bible itself goes still further. The majority of people I know who purport to be "Christian" do not even own a Bible. Worse in my experience such people have often never even SEEN a Bible, as evidenced by the one reaction I always get when I buy them one. SHOCK. They are shocked at how big it is. They have been spoon fed the same cherry picked passages throughout their schooling and church visits that they were convinced they knew the whole book cover to cover. When they see how big it is therefore they realize there is a lot more they have not been taught or even told about.

The extent of this ignorance of people to their own holy works has even compelled Atheist Ireland to run a "Read your Bible campaign". It seems it takes an atheist organisation to get Christians to sit down and read their own holy works.

So no, I genuinely see nothing at all that would even remotely compel me to share your assumption that religious people are genuinely taught about their religion at "some stage in their lives". Quite the opposite. I can see genuine advantages for the church in keeping it as vague and untaught as possible.

Chattastrophe! · 20-11-2013 09:16AM

Banbh wrote: »

Someone is getting at that kid and telling her not to listen to her parents.
If she were my child, I'd find out who and put a stop to it.

Thing is, everyone seems sure it must be either the grandparents or the childminder ...

I'd say there's a very good chance that it could be other kids. When I was that age, one of my friends was a member of a fundamentalist Christian religion. Because she wasn't Catholic, my friends and I used to argue with her that her beliefs were wrong and she wouldn't be allowed into heaven. She used to sanctimoniously inform us that, as we hadn't been "saved" by Jesus like her and her family, in fact we'd be the ones going to hell.

So you mightn't think kids that age have any interest in discussing religion - but some do, and will be a lot more likely to put forward their beliefs as definite facts. Also, funnily enough, kids will often take things more seriously when it's coming from other kids rather than from adults.

If that's where it's coming from, it's a lot more difficult to deal with - it's difficult to control what children talk about in the schoolyard. All you can really do is keep emphasising that SOME people believe these things, but make it clear it's not fact, and be sure to educate her about all the other beliefs out there.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-11-2013 10:22AM

A child praying for an hour a night because of something some other kid said in the schoolyard? Pull the other one!

Chattastrophe! · 20-11-2013 11:26AM

ninja900 wrote: »

A child praying for an hour a night because of something some other kid said in the schoolyard? Pull the other one!

I really don't think it's that unlikely, particularly if it was coming from older children (e.g. those making their confirmation.)

Of course, it would depend on how impressionable the child was.

kylith · 20-11-2013 11:49AM

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

I really don't think it's that unlikely, particularly if it was coming from older children (e.g. those making their confirmation.)

Of course, it would depend on how impressionable the child was.

OP said the child is attending an Educate Together school, IIRC, so I'd doubt that that's where she's getting it.

robindch · 20-11-2013 12:37PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

In my experience today some of the core beliefs of many religions are as clear as mud to the followers.

There was a nice small-scale study I recall reading about a few years back. In it, researchers visited a number of catholic churches and asked random believers to match up a list of catholic religious words with their meanings.

The results were almost entirely random - indicating that believers didn't have the slightest clue of what they were expected to believe.

While it doesn't surprise me, it would be nice to see people who keep going on about perfection to show some interest in their own imperfections.

lazygal · 20-11-2013 01:06PM

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

I really don't think it's that unlikely, particularly if it was coming from older children (e.g. those making their confirmation.)

Of course, it would depend on how impressionable the child was.

I think its highly likely a child could pick it up from other children, much in the same way a cold gets passed along. I remember being quite religious as a small child, wanting to be 'good' at religion like I was at other subjects (I was always a nerdy child!) and part of that would be talking about the stories and working on praying. Even in an ET school you'll get religious children who might try to evangelize, this was an issue with some Jehovahs Witnesses in an ET I know of, teachers nipped it in the bud thankfully.

Nerdlingr · 20-11-2013 01:47PM

smacl wrote: »

Rubbish. 54% of the people polled either don't believe Catholic teachings are of benefit to society or are unsure. That does not represent a majority believing the teachings are of benefit, 46 being less than 54 and all that

Your'e talking sh*te. You added all of the 23% of the unsure people on the assumption that they all think teachings arent beneficial. If you want I can do the same and add that 23 to the 46 and come up with an overwhelming majority of 69%...see how that works?!!
The facts are, of those who were surveyed, 46% were in favour, 31% against, and 23% unsure.
So the MAJORITY of those surveyed think the teachings are beneficial to society. Once again : 46>31>23.

Piliger · 20-11-2013 03:04PM

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

I really don't think it's that unlikely, particularly if it was coming from older children (e.g. those making their confirmation.)

Of course, it would depend on how impressionable the child was.

That's the thing that people commonly underestimate. ALL small children are highly impressionable in the right circumstances, just as adults still are in the right circumstances. Even a smart intelligent child can be deeply influenced if the source of the information comes from someone trusted and someone that they like and want the approval of.

smacl · 20-11-2013 03:12PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Your'e talking sh*te. You added all of the 23% of the unsure people on the assumption that they all think teachings arent beneficial. If you want I can do the same and add that 23 to the 46 and come up with an overwhelming majority of 69%...see how that works?!!
The facts are, of those who were surveyed, 46% were in favour, 31% against, and 23% unsure.
So the MAJORITY of those surveyed think the teachings are beneficial to society. Once again : 46>31>23.

You don't appear to grasp the meaning of the word majority. From Merriam-Webster;

Merriam Webster wrote:

ma·jor·i·ty noun \mə-ˈjȯr-ə-tē, -ˈjär-\
: a number that is greater than half of a total

: a number of votes that is more than half of the total number

: the group or party that is the greater part of a large group

Where you subdivide a group into more than two parts, a majority only exists if one subgroup is more than half the total. This is very different from the largest minority, which makes things such as minority governments such fragile things.

Religious child

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