Religious child

Sarky · 16-11-2013 06:10PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Yet that and how the OP's daughter interprets her own faith are not exclusive.

The important thing is you found a way to feel superior to more than just religious people. Go you!

Soft Falling Rain · 16-11-2013 06:24PM

Piliger wrote: »

Except she is totally incapable of 'interpreting her own faith' at her age.

The irony is delicious.

Piliger · 16-11-2013 06:45PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

The irony is delicious.

Commenting on your own failings is not really of interest.

Sulla Felix · 16-11-2013 08:06PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

The irony is delicious.

Honest question SFR. If it was a child of yours, and instead of Catholocism the child was professing an interest in Islam, Scientology or say, the teachings of Rajneesh, would you be so blase about it?

Hotblack Desiato · 17-11-2013 02:28AM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the double standards displayed by my fellow atheists.

How many of you would say your atheism started to develop from an early age, that "you just knew" even at the age of the OP's daughter? Quite a lot I suspect.

Yet here's a kid, that has just so happened to develop an interest in religion, only to be dismissed by notions such as sure she's just a kid, she'll grow out of it, she's being manipulated etc etc.....

Ah, so a child being fed lies to the extent they worry that their parents are going to burn in hell, ISN'T harming a child. Right.

Brian Shanahan · 17-11-2013 02:36AM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the double standards displayed by my fellow atheists.

How many of you would say your atheism started to develop from an early age, that "you just knew" even at the age of the OP's daughter? Quite a lot I suspect.

.

Every single person is born atheist. We have to "learn" about god, nobody believes in him from birth.

robindch · 17-11-2013 05:12PM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Honest question SFR. If it was a child of yours, and instead of Catholocism the child was professing an interest in Islam, Scientology or say, the teachings of Rajneesh, would you be so blase about it?

Would be interesting to hear a reply from SFR.

Starscream25 · 17-11-2013 05:22PM

Let her make her own decision but being only ten years old it's probably a phase. I'd say wait it out and see.

Piliger · 17-11-2013 07:23PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the double standards displayed by my fellow atheists.

Laugh all you like - there is no double standards, only hypocrisy by the theists.

How many of you would say your atheism started to develop from an early age, that "you just knew" even at the age of the OP's daughter? Quite a lot I suspect.

Perhaps ...

Yet here's a kid, that has just so happened to develop an interest in religion, only to be dismissed by notions such as sure she's just a kid, she'll grow out of it, she's being manipulated etc etc.....

Your amusement is amusing in and of itself. Because you seem to be suggesting a nonsensical equivalence between developing a 'belief' in fairy story characters as real entities that can control the universe and watch us and control us 24/7 .... with a 'lack' of any belief.

The nonsense of that equivalence is evident to any rational thinker.

Piliger · 17-11-2013 07:27PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Every single person is born atheist. We have to "learn" about god, nobody believes in him from birth.

Indeed. It goes back to this nonsensical and pure silly suggestion that Atheism is a 'belief' - the other side of the coin to theism.
Anyone with rational capability and common sense can instantly see the ridiculousness of this - but of course the reason it is dredged up again and again is because it is nothing but a construction that is concocted to camouflage the nonsense of theism.
Theists who run out of justifications for their silly fairy stories fall back on this construction in desperation - which I guess is understandable when people run out of ideas and realise they are in a corner.

Sulla Felix · 17-11-2013 07:55PM

robindch wrote: »

Would be interesting to hear a reply from SFR.

I'm not hopeful.

Kiwi in IE · 17-11-2013 11:48PM

Indoctrinating a child with fear that they or someone they love is going to 'hell' IS psychological abuse. Religious people can argue and squawk 'persecution' all they like, but that is fact.

OP, I would definitely find the source of these fears and if it is the childminder, I would dismiss them effective immediately, if it is your parents I would have very strong words and include the phrase 'psychological abuse' in the discussion.

Whatever about the rest of the fantasies and fairy tales included in religious indoctrination, but intentionally instiling anxiety, worry and fear into a child is undoubtedly harmful.

Nerdlingr · 18-11-2013 02:50PM

Around 80% of the world's population so have been psycologically abused and harmed. Thats a lot of people. Thankfully we have the other 20% to show us how we should be living our lives in blissful abandonment.

Piliger · 18-11-2013 03:47PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Around 80% of the world's population so have been psycologically abused and harmed. Thats a lot of people. Thankfully we have the other 20% to show us how we should be living our lives in blissful abandonment.

So true. We have come through most of the ages of slavery, but we still have the subjugation of women and the abuse of children's freedom to develop as free thinking people to contend with.

smacl · 18-11-2013 04:20PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Around 80% of the world's population so have been psycologically abused and harmed. Thats a lot of people. Thankfully we have the other 20% to show us how we should be living our lives in blissful abandonment.

Source for 80% of the world's population believing in hell please? Just asking given that most people in China aren't religious, and of those that are, the majority are Buddhist. Similarly, being flung into a burning pit isn't exactly part of Hinduism, but there's a lot of Hindu's out there. If you lump Christians, Muslims, and Jews together, you don't come anywhere even vaguely close to 80% of the worlds population. Maybe 54%, if that. Source

Piliger · 18-11-2013 04:33PM

smacl wrote: »

Source for 80% of the world's population believing in hell please? Just asking given that most people in China aren't religious, and of those that are, the majority are Buddhist. Similarly, being flung into a burning pit isn't exactly part of Hinduism, but there's a lot of Hindu's out there. If you lump Christians, Muslims, and Jews together, you don't come anywhere even vaguely close to 80% of the worlds population. Maybe 54%, if that. Source

Ah but he believes it is 80% .... so it must be 80% !

Kiwi in IE · 18-11-2013 04:52PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Around 80% of the world's population so have been psycologically abused and harmed. Thats a lot of people. Thankfully we have the other 20% to show us how we should be living our lives in blissful abandonment.

Hopefully in a couple of generations that (dubious) statistic will reverse. People are slowly becoming more enlightened, and what would have not only been tolerated, but accepted unquestioningly but the majority three generations ago, would now be hard for even some young children to accept. I am pretty sure that if my 5 year old son was told by a teacher or any other adult, that people who are not the 'right religion' go to hell, he would dismiss it and not be affected. He is bright enough to know that as it is not something we have ever discussed with him it is obviously not as important as the person is making out. That would not prevent me from addressing, through the appropriate channels, that said adult had attempted to intentionally instil psychological fear into my child however!

Piliger · 18-11-2013 05:58PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I am pretty sure that if my 5 year old son was told by a teacher or any other adult, that people who are not the 'right religion' go to hell, he would dismiss it and not be affected. He is bright enough to know that as it is not something we have ever discussed with him it is obviously not as important as the person is making out.

Having had a very bright 5yo boy myself .... I would advise extreme caution about that assumption ......

Nerdlingr · 18-11-2013 06:12PM

smacl wrote: »

Source for 80% of the world's population believing in hell please? Just asking given that most people in China aren't religious, and of those that are, the majority are Buddhist. Similarly, being flung into a burning pit isn't exactly part of Hinduism, but there's a lot of Hindu's out there. If you lump Christians, Muslims, and Jews together, you don't come anywhere even vaguely close to 80% of the worlds population. Maybe 54%, if that. Source

Does buddhism and hinduism not teach of "hell" ??
Do people who commit bad deeds not have to suffer?
Is there no cause and effect for people who commit sin?
Do places of torment not exist in Hinusim or Buddhism?

Lump it back up to 80% there.

Kiwi in IE · 18-11-2013 06:19PM

Piliger wrote: »

Having had a very bright 5yo boy myself .... I would advise extreme caution about that assumption ......

He is the most cynical child I have ever encountered. I am pretty certain that he is a very unlikely candidate for falling victim to religion. He has regular contact with a devout relation and he repeats anything said on the subject of religion in a tone of disbelief and queries it with myself and OH. I try to be respectful of religion when discussing it with him, but if he came to me with talk of 'hell' or 'sin', I would completely rubbish the ideas outright.

Turtwig · 18-11-2013 06:27PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Does buddhism and hinduism not teach of "hell" ??
Do people who commit bad deeds not have to suffer?
Is there no cause and effect for people who commit sin?
Do places of torment not exist in Hinusim or Buddhism?

Lump it back up to 80% there.

Buddhism? Nope. Any place that there is suffering is regarded as hell. Hell on earth is generally worse than hell in any other plane. Neither "heaven" or hell are regarded as eternal or permanent. You can always traverse from one to the other. Heaven and hell are more about character building than actual places where people will suffer or experience euphoria. In Buddhism one doesn't aim for heaven or hell they simply desire to grow themselves mentally and spiritually. It's not about being saved or being judged by a God.

I'll let someone else deal with Hinduism.

smacl · 18-11-2013 07:13PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Do people who commit bad deeds not have to suffer?

If you take a Christian slant on it, the people who suffer are those that don't tow the party line more so than the doers of bad deeds. Redemption is always an option for the sinner, but Christianity would have all us atheists bound for the pit either way, noble or not. Then again our Islamic friends have all those same Christians bound for whatever their version of the inferno, and I daresay the more extreme Hindus have the whole lot of us down for a one way ticket to some Naraka or other.

So bottom line, of all of the major religions that have a hell of some kind, they all insist that the others are wrong and going to hell as a result of false belief (or no belief for us atheists). Thus if any one of them was right, the vast majority of the worlds population are going to hell before even considering a misdemeanor. Apart from obviously being wrong, why on earth would you want to teach this kind of crap to a child?

Is there no cause and effect for people who commit sin?
Do places of torment not exist in Hinusim or Buddhism?

Lump it back up to 80% there.

Places of torment exist for lots of us, IKEA is quite high on my list for example, but that doesn't qualify them as hell in the religious sense of the word, nor are they used as a mechanism to scare little children into doing the will of the men in frocks. If we're talking about people suffering for their misdeeds, I'd suggest starting with the middle aged and elder gents who've made a career out of scaring little children.

Piliger · 18-11-2013 07:52PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He is the most cynical child I have ever encountered. I am pretty certain that he is a very unlikely candidate for falling victim to religion. He has regular contact with a devout relation and he repeats anything said on the subject of religion in a tone of disbelief and queries it with myself and OH. I try to be respectful of religion when discussing it with him, but if he came to me with talk of 'hell' or 'sin', I would completely rubbish the ideas outright.

I am not challenging you ... but would just like to say that however wonderfully cynical he may be ... the power of the suggestion is in it's source. If a stranger or a friend said something to him he may scoff it off, but a grand parent or a really highly trusted and admired individual, like a most favourite teacher for example .... I suggest you would be amazed at how it can manage to penetrate the mind of such a small boy when coming from that kind of source. Glad he is such a great kid though !!

Obliq · 18-11-2013 08:25PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He is the most cynical child I have ever encountered.

Are you sure you don't mean most educated?!

smacl wrote: »

Places of torment exist for lots of us, IKEA is quite high on my list for example, but that doesn't qualify them as hell in the religious sense of the word, nor are they used as a mechanism to scare little children into doing the will of the men in frocks. If we're talking about people suffering for their misdeeds, I'd suggest starting with the middle aged and elder gents who've made a career out of scaring little children.

To qualify what I meant by "educated" above here, this sentence from smacl^^

Our 5 year olds these days come home from school and we listen if they tell us the teacher shouted at them. They become aware very quickly that it is not an option for a teacher (or other adult in a position of care for your child) to use physical, emotional or psychological threats in order to get your child to agree with them and do as they say. This is a good thing, yes? We consider this an advance in education. But it is a set-back for the advancement of religion, which depends on fear to compel a (questioning) child to believe and OBEY in the first place. It depends on fear of god, fear of hell and not long ago, depended on fear of the priest and fear of your teacher (and fear of your parents, who supported their every word).

I will never forget my father telling me about when he stopped going to mass. He attended the Synge St. CBS, that was by all accounts one of the toughest in the country. He was always in major trouble for questioning the jesuits. At age 14 he got a permanent job (and a good job at that) to support the family and was then able to stand up to his father/teachers. His words - "I didn't have to take that kind of abuse any more", and by that he meant that he couldn't be bullied into going to mass.

Piliger wrote: »

I am not challenging you ... but would just like to say that however wonderfully cynical he may be ... the power of the suggestion is in it's source. If a stranger or a friend said something to him he may scoff it off, but a grand parent or a really highly trusted and admired individual, like a most favourite teacher for example .... I suggest you would be amazed at how it can manage to penetrate the mind of such a small boy when coming from that kind of source. Glad he is such a great kid though !!

That's the more insidious way that the obsessively religious operate these days (and tbh, reading the OP's posts, it's hard to see how her child could've come up with this kind of focus without the suggestiveness of an overly religious person in her life?) ....in the past it was ok to scare kids, so it wasn't necessarily a trusted or loved individual. Now, they're all much more nicey-nicey (using guilt trips instead of outright threats), so harder to spot and defend against as a child OR as a parent.

Sulla Felix · 18-11-2013 10:45PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Does buddhism and hinduism not teach of "hell" ??
Do people who commit bad deeds not have to suffer?
Is there no cause and effect for people who commit sin?
Do places of torment not exist in Hinusim or Buddhism?

Lump it back up to 80% there.

Hell in the Christian sense is a place of eternal punishment. No other large religious screed other than Islam teaches this. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism their concepts of hell are more akin to purgatory, you do your time and then get out.

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 11:18AM

smacl wrote: »

If you take a Christian slant on it, the people who suffer are those that don't tow the party line more so than the doers of bad deeds. Redemption is always an option for the sinner, but Christianity would have all us atheists bound for the pit either way, noble or not. Then again our Islamic friends have all those same Christians bound for whatever their version of the inferno, and I daresay the more extreme Hindus have the whole lot of us down for a one way ticket to some Naraka or other.

So bottom line, of all of the major religions that have a hell of some kind
.

Ah, so what you're saying is you now agree with me when I said about 80% of the worlds population have been thought about a place where torment and suffering exist? That all major religions have their versions of 'hell'. That it wasnt something I believed so it must be true (like some other poster commented). Nice one.

Cabaal · 19-11-2013 11:56AM

Again, not every major religion has a hell. of course if you consider your living life as hell then I guess we're in hell (Catholics sure like to sometimes believe living is hell)

Some interesting reading
http://library.thinkquest.org/16665/afterlifeframe.htm

smacl · 19-11-2013 12:16PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Ah, so what you're saying is you now agree with me when I said about 80% of the worlds population have been thought about a place where torment and suffering exist? That all major religions have their versions of 'hell'. That it wasnt something I believed so it must be true (like some other poster commented). Nice one.

Very far from it. In Ireland for example, the majority of people would be taught no such thing as the majority have stopped attending the churches where they would learn such nonsense. So while as part of your 80%, Ireland figures as 90% Christian according to census, church attendance figures have dropped from 91% in the 1970s to around 30% in 2012. In a 2007-2008 Gallup Poll, 42% of Ireland answered no to the question "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?" and in the 2011 Gallup, 53% of Ireland answered no. As with Ireland, organised religion is in a state of rapid collapse in most first world countries, and I would imagine the number of people being taught a fire and brimstone style of eternal damnation is actually a small minority.

I grew up in an Ireland overrun with priests, brothers and nuns spouting hard line religious nonsense, but if you look around, there's very few left, and those that remain are getting on a bit, or brought in from abroad. No brothers and nuns in the schools, few of the so-called faithful bothering to attend church, and there's not really that much hell and damnation being taught anymore.

Nerdlingr · 19-11-2013 12:55PM

But this is the first paragrpah in the first source you linked, so which is it? :

"Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group. A comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that there are 5.8 billion religiously affiliated adults and children around the globe, representing 84% of the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion."

Basically my point is people on the previous page have claimed the child is being taught that their parents are going to burn in hell and that catholicism is a psycologically scarring religion. I just wanted to point out the ideas of hell arent exclusive to catholiscm, so by that rationale 50-80% of the world population must be mentally scarred for life. I just feel people use extreme examples to make a point as to why the child in question should be directed away from a religion she has chosen to explore. As you said yourself all that fire and brimstone style of eternal damnation is actually a small minority and there's not really that much hell and damnation being taught anymore. .

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. I'm probably getting a bit off topic.

the_syco · 19-11-2013 12:55PM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

gaynorvader, I did that, and she just said ' how can you not believe - god made the whole world, he loves us'. She didnt really explain, she just really believes.

Sounds more like someone brainwashed the kid, than explained to her how their god made the world. Talk to her about god, and find out indirectly who has been telling her about their god. I'm thinking that someone has thanked god for all the good things, their happiness, etc, and this has rubbed off on her.

Finally, if there is anything going on in her life that is not running smooth, it's sometimes easier to pray to some magical being that actually trying to fix it. Maybe keep an eye on her in case she's using the god thing as a crutch, and when god doesn't come though, to ensure she doesn't blame herself for not "believing enough".

Religious child

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