ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

19-11-2013 06:42PM

baddebt wrote: »

in 2010 pension agreement within ESB the board of mgmt , agreed that this €591m (from the sale of power stations) would be put into the pension pot , with the ESB workers agreeing to what is know as a career averge pension (ie your final pension is based on your average wage of your lifetime in the company , rather than based on your final salary which was normal) ,

now mgmt (after ring fencing ans securing their own pensions) have done a u-turn on the rest of us (by manipulating the books in order to get a credit rating to enable them borrow billions on the markets) ,

any employee in ESB prior to 1995 is not entitled to ANY STATE pension (because of a deal then done between Gov and ESB)

I'm here almost 10 years , have put 18,000 into my pension (a compulsory pension ,...i did not want to join , but had no option) ,
now take some who has 40 years service , gave their life to the company only to find , now , after pumping in 72000 into there pension( i'm basing that on my contribution) , now they find they are retiring tomorrow ....no pension , no state pension .
SOUND FAIR ? I THINK NOT .
for the record my earnings are €32k pa , no bonus's , no perks , no expenses no extras.

Who won't be getting a pension if they were due to retire tomorrow?

Can I ask you to put your details into a pension calculator like this one from Irish Life to see whether you are getting value from your contributions?
https://www.irishlife.ie/secureWeb/advice/pension-calculator.html
You don't have to share the results with us of course.

spank_inferno · 19-11-2013 06:45PM

Posting that imminent retirees will receive zero pension is scaremongering.

end of the road · 19-11-2013 06:46PM

periodictable wrote: »

Fire all the workers

for what, because you can't strike? all that sort of nonsense was tried in england back in the 80s, and still the unions exist

periodictable wrote: »

bring in the army to run the show

LOL

periodictable wrote: »

arrest the union bosses

for what?

periodictable wrote: »

rehire the workers at lower wages.

can't be done, would cause to much up-evil, and would take to much to sort, rather then just paying what was agreed or doing a deal with the unions, the ESB agreed to a certain amount, so now they have to either put up and pay up, or do a deal

reprazant · 19-11-2013 06:49PM

spank_inferno wrote: »

Posting that imminent retirees will receive zero pension is scaremongering.

Seemingly, there is enough in the pot for imminent retirees to recieve €13.50 a week. And what of those that have 10 years to go till they retire? What should happen to them?

intellectual dosser · 19-11-2013 06:53PM

end of the road wrote: »

to which if people are acting in a threatening manner or causing problems the guardai should swiftly remove them by whatever force necessary.

You're making unfair assumptions.

end of the road wrote: »

why? if we were all rolling in it would you have a problem then? the unions are fighting for their members, thats their job, not to care about me or you, it would be nice if they did but i don't expect them to, your probably not a member of a union fine, but others are and therefore if they have to strike as a last resort then thats how it has to be.

what money? their pensions? again what of it, the company agreed a certain amount for the pension fund, so therefore they have to deliver it, sure they shouldn't have agreed to as much in hindsight but they have

There is a discrepancy in the pension scheme, this doesnt mean that people who retire tomorrow will not get the money they're due. It can be resolved by working with the Government and coming to an amicable agreement. Why do the Unions feel entitled to strike over this and potentially disrupt the power supply to the entire country (in winter).

Cienciano · 19-11-2013 06:57PM

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

I worked in ESB. Swimming pool is open to anyone. But I'd advise you to join Energie gym or Ben Dunne because it's a lot cheaper!
Canteen where I worked closed down because it was so expensive. Yes, it was a hot meal, but local pubs and spar and bringing in your own lunch was more popular.
Not one person in my office was using the health insurance because it wasn't good value. They had a car insurance scheme too, out of 20 people about 3 used it. It was at best the same price as private companies, for me it was €250 more expensive. Only reason people used it was because it was taken from your wages weekly, handy way to pay.

end of the road · 19-11-2013 07:15PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

You're making unfair assumptions.

sadly the way the country has gone, i'm not, their are a lot of people who begrudge anyone getting more than them and will use this to "get their own back" at them.

intellectual dosser wrote: »

It can be resolved by working with the Government and coming to an amicable agreement.

which is what should and probably will happen

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Why do the Unions feel entitled to strike over this and potentially disrupt the power supply to the entire country (in winter).

well they are entitled to, as a last resort, which this is, because i suspect, nobody is talking or has offered to sit down and listen to the workers greevence, i hope that does happen and a strike can be averted but if it has to happen then so be it, whether it is winter or summer really is irrelevant to whether the power supply should be disrupted, powercuts can happen and one has to get on with it, how did people survive back in the days of no power? people should always have a backup plan just incase of the extreme possibility of any of the utilities going out.

NuckingFacker · 19-11-2013 07:21PM

Max Max -Beyond Thunderdome -"turn off the power - now, who rules Thunderdome??"

Masterblaster(or the slightly less glamorous ESB) rules because, if you can turn off the power, who's gonna argue, really? No lights, no heat and no iPhone chargers..err, ok, lets pay. The ESB workers hold the power, wether they realise that fully or not remains to be seen. We better hope Tina Kenny and Co. decide to play ball.

Boombastic · 19-11-2013 07:35PM

meh, let them.
I got the fire, gas oven, candles, a generator and chargers in the car, I can hold out longer than they can!

V_Moth · 19-11-2013 07:37PM

mike65 wrote: »

Uber Union boss Brendan Ogle (the man who brought CIE trains to its knees in 2000) is now threatening to plunge the huddled masses into the dark and cold over a shortfall in the ESB Unions pension fund (due to switch from defined benefit to contributory pension). If there is a gap then that is the business of the Unions and the company not the public

Unions will decide on Friday whether to down tools, 87 per cent of workers voted for industrial action. Of course as strike if it dug deep would also hit industry.

The average ESB salary is 65k a year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAacb31bltI

neiphin · 19-11-2013 08:14PM

mike65 wrote: »

No ESB family is popping a 50c piece into a pay as you go meter.

neither should you
its a much more expensive way to get and pay for the lecci you use

Annabella1 · 19-11-2013 08:15PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but when these interconnectors are built with europe we will gave constant power supply regardless of future strikes by the ESB?

Zen65 · 19-11-2013 08:32PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

wrong time to start that carry on

the abuse they will receive from the public on the picket line will be fun

Fun, maybe. Justified, undoutedly.

Z

woodoo · 19-11-2013 08:37PM

Why not introduce a pension levy of about 7% to cover it like the Public Service have had to pay. The ESB didn't get a pay cut or a pension levy.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-11-2013 08:37PM

If there is a strike in winter, instead of summer, people will die.

http://alone.ie/deaths-linked-to-fuel-allowance-cuts/

Figures revealed by Dr Anne O’Farrell from the HSE’s Health Intelligence Unit, show that a large proportion of the 3,000 ‘excess’ winter deaths between 2005-09 among over 65′s were temperature related. Shockingly, more than 400 were directly related to the internal temperature in people’s homes (i.e. once external temperature and flu were discounted).

see also
http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/9/719.full

end of the road · 19-11-2013 08:40PM

Annabella1 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but when these interconnectors are built with europe we will gave constant power supply regardless of future strikes by the ESB?

if we choose to depend on them for it yes, it would be wise though not to depend to much on europe and others for our electricity, we should be generating as much of our own as possible.

Zen65 · 19-11-2013 08:41PM

periodictable wrote: »

Fire all the workers, bring in the army to run the show,arrest the union bosses and rehire the workers at lower wages.

I think that ESB produces only a modest percentage of Ireland's electricity now anyway, so a strike now will not be like it was when I was growing up in the 70s.

In any event, if I understand the pension issue correctly (not saying I do) should the unions not simply go to court like anyone else would?

Z

Boombastic · 19-11-2013 08:42PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If there is a strike in winter, instead of summer, people will die.

http://alone.ie/deaths-linked-to-fuel-allowance-cuts/

see also
http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/9/719.full

do you think the union gives a sh1t about that? that's their bargaining tool. Give us what we want, we have the power, if you don't people will die

hansfrei · 19-11-2013 08:47PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I think that ESB produces only a modest percentage of Ireland's electricity now anyway, so a strike now will not be like it was when I was growing up in the 70s.

In any event, if I understand the pension issue correctly (not saying I do) should the unions not simply go to court like anyone else would?

Z

They should go to court. Thats what courts are for.

Like PS or semi state dispute they'll be rewarded for abusing their customers no doubt.

JDxtra · 19-11-2013 08:49PM

Ahhhh - this explains why they keep plugging their otherwise almost useless Power Check phone app!

https://itunes.apple.com/ie/app/powercheck/id510906878?mt=8

jack presley · 19-11-2013 08:52PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I think that ESB produces only a modest percentage of Ireland's electricity now anyway, so a strike now will not be like it was when I was growing up in the 70s.

They might not produce all the power but they do own and maintain every single powerline/cable in the country so any strike will be as severe as they want it to be.

P_1 · 19-11-2013 09:00PM

jack presley wrote: »

They might not produce all the power but they do own and maintain every single powerline/cable in the country so any strike will be as severe as they want it to be.

Wouldn't cutting off the power by stopping it going through the lines they maintain be considered as sabotage rather than a legit strike though?

Cienciano · 19-11-2013 09:05PM

P_1 wrote: »

Wouldn't cutting off the power by stopping it going through the lines they maintain be considered as sabotage rather than a legit strike though?

If every substation in the country was disabled for safety reasons because no one was available to operate or maintain it, it would be legit

P_1 · 19-11-2013 09:12PM

Cienciano wrote: »

If every substation in the country was disabled for safety reasons because no one was available to operate or maintain it, it would be legit

Fair point. Thinking aloud here mind, but is there anything legally wrong with people passing the picket line to operate them if a strike were to happen though?

Ace2007 · 19-11-2013 09:19PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

In all fairness, there's a €1.5 billion deficit in the State-owned company’s pension scheme...

If I was an ESB worker contributing to said pension scheme my whole working life, I'd be pretty pissed off about it & I'd want some answers .

What other avenue of recourse do they have?

I'd say 95%+ of DB schemes are in deficit, why should ESB workers be treated any differently to other companies?

Cienciano · 19-11-2013 09:45PM

P_1 wrote: »

Fair point. Thinking aloud here mind, but is there anything legally wrong with people passing the picket line to operate them if a strike were to happen though?

I don't think so. As far as I know, it's illegal for a picket line to stop anybody from crossing. I wouldn't do it myself

Gumbo · 19-11-2013 10:20PM

wandatowell wrote: »

One issue the ESB has was that years ago they were extremely over staffed (I'm talking 70's, 80's, 90's).
So in order to get employee numbers down they offered a lot of staff "packages". Now, there is the issue of having a lot less staff paying into the pension fund and a lot more retired employee's withdrawing.

Its a cluster **** of a situation.

Also I'm nearly sure the switch in pension types was force upon staff with little or no discussion.

Not only that, but the new staff are paying into a DC scheme, so they don't even get contributions to keep the DB scheme afloat.

Gumbo · 19-11-2013 10:26PM

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

All gone to new entrants since the late naughties. I think done away with at the same time to existing staff around the same time the banks stopped given its staff health insurance, leisure allowance and subsidized loans/mortgages.

Boombastic · 19-11-2013 10:30PM

kceire wrote: »

Not only that, but the new staff are paying into a DC scheme, so they don't even get contributions to keep the DB scheme afloat.

DC? direct current?

Gumbo · 19-11-2013 10:32PM

Boombastic wrote: »

DC? direct current?

Defined contribution.
Ie. they are paying their own pension to a private pension provider.

ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

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