ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

mike65

Uber Union boss Brendan Ogle (the man who brought CIE trains to its knees in 2000) is now threatening to plunge the huddled masses into the dark and cold over a shortfall in the ESB Unions pension fund (due to switch from defined benefit to contributory pension). If there is a gap then that is the business of the Unions and the company not the public

"If those workers were to withdraw their labour, I’ve no doubt that there would be a disruption to service.

What effect that would have, how long it would be and how damaging it would be to people across the country remains to be seen.”

Unions will decide on Friday whether to down tools, 87 per cent of workers voted for industrial action. Of course as strike if it dug deep would also hit industry.

The average ESB salary is 65k a year.

whiskeyman

mike65 wrote: »

Unions will decide on Friday whether to down tools

"Go on Tom! Down that power-sander!! chug chug!! Now have a jigsaw chaser!!"

Corkbah

amazing how unions seem to encourage strikes coming up towards christmas …. every year its the same …. we fancy a strike (unless you want to give us more money)

Gatling

Absolutely ridiculous if this is allowed happen ,

jim_jim

ogle is an obnoxious charlatan

a self proclaimed socialist who insists on a salary which is more than double the average industrial wage for the workers he represents

Karl Stein

I'm going to fill the bath with electricity just in case.

It was/is company practice to give 'promotions' a year or so before an employee retired, as their pension was based on final salary/grade. This boosted their already generous pension, it looks like years of this practice has finally come home to roost.

Hunter Mahan

I guess they have a right to oppose a perceived injustice and I'm not sure what relevance an average salary has? An electricity cut would be devastating but strong unions are a rare breed these days, and we probably need more of them. If I was a member of one, I'd certainly appreciate a bit of bite when needed.

jim_jim

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

I guess they have a right to oppose a perceived injustice and I'm not sure what relevance an average salary has? An electricity cut would be devastating but strong unions are a rare breed these days, and we probably need more of them. If I was a member of one, I'd certainly appreciate a bit of bite when needed.

so you think mr ogle and his fellow union chiefs at ESB are striking a blow for the rest of us ?

tobsey

The staff have pension entitlements built into their contracts. The company is supposed to plan and prepare for these pension payments. Currently there is a massive shortfall in the fund and instead of filling that gap the company is giving hundreds of millions to the government purse. That sounds to me like the workers pensions are being risked in order to reduce the government deficit. They are currently paying the increased taxes that have been announced in the budget but now as well as that their pensions are being paid to the government also. I know I'd be pissed with it.

MonstaMash

In all fairness, there's a €1.5 billion deficit in the State-owned company’s pension scheme...

If I was an ESB worker contributing to said pension scheme my whole working life, I'd be pretty pissed off about it & I'd want some answers .

What other avenue of recourse do they have?

jim_jim

tobsey wrote: »

The staff have pension entitlements built into their contracts. The company is supposed to plan and prepare for these pension payments. Currently there is a massive shortfall in the fund and instead of filling that gap the company is giving hundreds of millions to the government purse. That sounds to me like the workers pensions are being risked in order to reduce the government deficit. They are currently paying the increased taxes that have been announced in the budget but now as well as that their pensions are being paid to the government also. I know I'd be pissed with it.

DB pensions are a Ponzi scheme and unsustainable

hidinginthebush

I heard it on the news that the pension deficit in ESB is over €1 billion, and they're contemplating strike because a dividend was paid out to the government rather than pumped into the pension fund. The governmanet own 95% of the ESB, so why the hell shouldn't they get to take a divident payment, it's not as if the country has money to spare. The dividend is €600 million, money the country could well use rather than letting it vanish into some mismanaged and over inflated pension fund.

Mardy Bum

mike65 wrote: »

The average ESB salary is 65k a year.

This is a terrible measurement when there are extreme values in the model.
It tells us absolutely nothing.

kona

I'd say it's similar crap to the aviation one. Good aul state bodies.

mike65

MonstaMash wrote: »

In all fairness, there's a €1.5 billion deficit in the State-owned company’s pension scheme...

If I was an ESB worker contributing to said pension scheme my whole working life, I'd be pretty pissed off about it & I'd want some answers .

What other avenue of recourse do they have?

To not put the rest of us in misery? That a union has a beef is never a reason to bring the county to a grinding halt. Its not the 70s.

No ESB family is popping a 50c piece into a pay as you go meter.

Hunter Mahan

jim_jim wrote: »

so you think mr ogle and his fellow union chiefs at ESB are striking a blow for the rest of us ?

No, I dont think I said that anywhere, why would they? They are acting on their members wishes and fighting for them.
I was just commenting on a perceived weakness of many other Irish unions.

jim_jim

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is a terrible measurement when there are extreme values in the model.
It tells us absolutely nothing.

that's how averages work , just because the guy making the tea is on 20 k per year doesn't mean their are not many on over a hundred k per year

mikom

Lights go out................. meanwhile.........

PROFITS before tax at the ESB rose four-fold last year as the semi-state piled further price increases on hard-pressed households.

Annual results for 2012 show the company raked in profits of €327.6m in the same year that it hiked prices for customers by almost 6pc.
The profit was up from the €78.8m pre-tax profit made in 2011.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pretax-profits-at-esb-rise-fourfold-after-customers-hit-by-price-hike-29129325.html

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

MonstaMash

mike65 wrote: »

To not put the rest of us in misery? That a union has a beef is never a reason to bring the county to a grinding halt. Its not the 70s.

No ESB family is popping a 50c piece into a pay as you go meter.

The average human being isn't that benevolant unfortunately, especially when it's their own potential future funds that are threatened.

The ESB worker affected by this could care less about our misery, as indeed most of us, truth be known, give a toss about their pension scheme, until it affects us.

reprazant

MonstaMash wrote: »

The average human being isn't that benevolant unfortunately, especially when it's their own potential future funds that are threatened.

The ESB worker affected by this could care less about our misery, as indeed most of us, truth be known, give a toss about their pension scheme, until it affects us.

If it was my pension, I wouldn't give a toss either. Neither would any of the outraged boards members either.

wandatowell

One issue the ESB has was that years ago they were extremely over staffed (I'm talking 70's, 80's, 90's).
So in order to get employee numbers down they offered a lot of staff "packages". Now, there is the issue of having a lot less staff paying into the pension fund and a lot more retired employee's withdrawing.


Its a cluster **** of a situation.

Also I'm nearly sure the switch in pension types was force upon staff with little or no discussion.

anncoates

The thread title isn't heart wrenching enough.

I suggest:

Fat Cat ESB vote to strike over gold-plated pensions as coldest winter on record arrives and babies starve in the streets

Slutmonkey57b

jim_jim wrote: »

DB pensions are a Ponzi scheme and unsustainable

So are bank accounts.

diomed

If they strike then it is an opportunity for the Government to dismantle the ESB. Bring it on.

animaal

In the real world, what happens with DB schemes that fall short? Benefits get reduced. The schemes get wound up. There's no requirement for a company to pour all its funds into a pension scheme.

Unions have to learn that they don't own or manage companies. They put far more effort into issues like this, and into power grabs (Eircom ESOT) than they do into real injustice (e.g. Irish Ferries).

I'll gladly suffer the results of industrial action, if the government can stick to its guns and break the stranglehold the unions have over the country.

noodler

DB schemes are closing up everywhere.

I don't see why shareholders should be asked to contribute anymore than they already have.

wandatowell

mike65 wrote: »

No ESB family is popping a 50c piece into a pay as you go meter.

Who would want to? Rip off prices.

Over €.50 cent a day in fees before you've even used one unit. A unit which costs €.19cent.


http://prepaypower.ie/pricing

SEPT 23 1989

wrong time to start that carry on

the abuse they will receive from the public on the picket line will be fun

jim_jim

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So are bank accounts.

explain

jim_jim

diomed wrote: »

If they strike then it is an opportunity for the Government to dismantle the ESB. Bring it on.

deregulating sheltered sectors of the economy has never been the style of goverments in this country

Akrasia

mike65 wrote: »

Uber Union boss Brendan Ogle (the man who brought CIE trains to its knees in 2000) is now threatening to plunge the huddled masses into the dark and cold over a shortfall in the ESB Unions pension fund (due to switch from defined benefit to contributory pension). If there is a gap then that is the business of the Unions and the company not the public



Unions will decide on Friday whether to down tools, 87 per cent of workers voted for industrial action. Of course as strike if it dug deep would also hit industry.

The average ESB salary is 65k a year.

Whats the Median salary?

Mardy Bum

jim_jim wrote: »

that's how averages work , just because the guy making the tea is on 20 k per year doesn't mean their are not many on over a hundred k per year

Obviously but the information the OP is using to make a case is useless for his cause therefore the median would be a much better stat.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Fire the lot of them if they go on strike. There's such a disconnect between people paid through the government and people paid in the private world.

The 13% who don't go on strike can be kept, hire a whole new workforce to make up the rest. Between the East West Interconnector we have with Britain and electricity from the north we'll be fine.

The government should retain 51% of the company and sell the rest to the private sector.

Slutmonkey57b

jim_jim wrote: »

explain

Fractional reserve banking. All banks are a ponzi scam. They all operate on the basis that they give money from "new" entrants to "newer" entrants, charge interest, and hope very few people come knocking on the door for their money in the interim.

Exactly like a ponzi scheme. Take in X, promise to pay out Y, hope nobody actually asks for the money until enough suckers sign up with Y.

Ask yourself how a bank can provide a current or savings account with physical branches, call centres, online servicing, atm fleets, cash storage, and systems contact with other banks without charging thousands in fees. Answer: they can't. But they do.

srsly78

Slutmonkey the conspiracy theory forum is that way ->

Stuffing cash into your mattress is also a ponzi scheme following your logic. Should we stock up on seashells or bitcoins instead?

intellectual dosser

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

wrong time to start that carry on

the abuse they will receive from the public on the picket line will be fun

If they strike and the lights go out then there wont be much for us to do except head down and let them know what we think.

I'm sick to my guts of unions threatening strikes given the circumstances everyone is in. This Union's grief isnt with current pay or working conditions, it's insuring they'll get their money in the distant future.

Slutmonkey57b

srsly78 wrote: »

Slutmonkey the conspiracy theory forum is that way ->

Stuffing cash into your mattress is also a ponzi scheme following your logic. Should we stock up on seashells or bitcoins instead?

It's not a conspiracy theory at all. Fractional reserve banking works just like that. The banks have less on deposit than they have in liabilities. So does a ponzi scheme. The difference is public perception, not fact. That's why you hear commentaters being concerned about "customer confidence" with banks. What happens in a bank run is exactly what happened to investors in madoff: "whoops we said your money was here but it isn't".

srsly78

Yes but it's a completely redundant point. "Hey lads, if civilisation collapses your money won't be worth **** all!"

Also your point above about banks not charging fees is laughable, they are gouging us all right now.

baddebt

hidinginthebush wrote: »

I heard it on the news that the pension deficit in ESB is over €1 billion, and they're contemplating strike because a dividend was paid out to the government rather than pumped into the pension fund. The governmanet own 95% of the ESB, so why the hell shouldn't they get to take a divident payment, it's not as if the country has money to spare. The dividend is €600 million, money the country could well use rather than letting it vanish into some mismanaged and over inflated pension fund.

in 2010 pension agreement within ESB the board of mgmt , agreed that this €591m (from the sale of power stations) would be put into the pension pot , with the ESB workers agreeing to what is know as a career averge pension (ie your final pension is based on your average wage of your lifetime in the company , rather than based on your final salary which was normal) ,

now mgmt (after ring fencing ans securing their own pensions) have done a u-turn on the rest of us (by manipulating the books in order to get a credit rating to enable them borrow billions on the markets) ,

any employee in ESB prior to 1995 is not entitled to ANY STATE pension (because of a deal then done between Gov and ESB)

I'm here almost 10 years , have put 18,000 into my pension (a compulsory pension ,...i did not want to join , but had no option) ,
now take some who has 40 years service , gave their life to the company only to find , now , after pumping in 72000 into there pension( i'm basing that on my contribution) , now they find they are retiring tomorrow ....no pension , no state pension .
SOUND FAIR ? I THINK NOT .
for the record my earnings are €32k pa , no bonus's , no perks , no expenses no extras.

srsly78

It's not fair, but it seems to be pretty normal in the PS these days.

Old members = gold-plated untouchables
New members = suck it up

The unions don't give a damn about the new entrants. All of the new teachers and other PS workers etc should form a new union tbh.

Frankie5Angels

jim_jim wrote: »

ogle is an obnoxious charlatan

Couldn't agree more.

Tow wrote: »

It was/is company practice to give 'promotions' a year or so before an employee retired

Proof/Link? I call complete and utter b0ll0cks.:rolleyes:

Corkbah

baddebt wrote: »

in 2010 pension agreement within ESB the board of mgmt , agreed that this €591m (from the sale of power stations) would be put into the pension pot , with the ESB workers agreeing to what is know as a career averge pension (ie your final pension is based on your average wage of your lifetime in the company , rather than based on your final salary which was normal) ,

now mgmt (after ring fencing ans securing their own pensions) have done a u-turn on the rest of us (by manipulating the books in order to get a credit rating to enable them borrow billions on the markets) ,

any employee in ESB prior to 1995 is not entitled to ANY STATE pension (because of a deal then done between Gov and ESB)

I'm here almost 10 years , have put 18,000 into my pension (a compulsory pension ,...i did not want to join , but had no option) ,
now take some who has 40 years service , gave their life to the company only to find , now , after pumping in 72000 into there pension( i'm basing that on my contribution) , now they find they are retiring tomorrow ....no pension , no state pension .
SOUND FAIR ? I THINK NOT .
for the record my earnings are €32k pa , no bonus's , no perks , no expenses no extras.

you got any proof of what management have alleged to have done !!!

(or is it just claims unions have made to make the workers angry and lean towards a strike)

I can't speak for your union but from my own experience those who represent the unions usually protect their own pockets and those of management before fighting for the "little" ordinary worker.

jim_jim

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If they strike and the lights go out then there wont be much for us to do except head down and let them know what we think.

I'm sick to my guts of unions threatening strikes given the circumstances everyone is in. This Union's grief isnt with current pay or working conditions, it's insuring they'll get their money in the distant future.

unions are right to represent their workers as best they can but their not elected by the people and the government should be more willing to stand up to unions instead of appeasing them as has been government policy for decades

ogle is someone I have a particular dislike for , he,s a hypocrite of epic proportions

jim_jim

srsly78 wrote: »

It's not fair, but it seems to be pretty normal in the PS these days.

Old members = gold-plated untouchables
New members = suck it up

The unions don't give a damn about the new entrants. All of the new teachers and other PS workers etc should form a new union tbh.

that will continue until a majority of people under forty ( or thereabouts ) realise that older people are not only not vulnerable in this country , they don't give a crap about the young and are happy to pull up the ladder

Ireland is incredibly ageist ( against the young )

MadsL

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

Frankie5Angels

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

You can join that self-same swimming pool and can also avail of private health insurance. Do you consider yourself to be the recipient of gold-plated benefits?

niallo27

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

I go that at my company, well not the grandchildren thing, I would not consider them gold plated benefits.

WoollyRedHat

Will the last person in Ireland, put the lights.... oh wait.

Technoprisoner

damn esb workers...sack the lot of them....and while we are at it string up those union leaders.


all i will say is who will get the blame when its your pension thats in the ****s and you face to loose everything you worked hard all your life for