ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

jim_jim · 19-11-2013 02:06PM

diomed wrote: »

If they strike then it is an opportunity for the Government to dismantle the ESB. Bring it on.

deregulating sheltered sectors of the economy has never been the style of goverments in this country

Akrasia · 19-11-2013 02:09PM

mike65 wrote: »

Uber Union boss Brendan Ogle (the man who brought CIE trains to its knees in 2000) is now threatening to plunge the huddled masses into the dark and cold over a shortfall in the ESB Unions pension fund (due to switch from defined benefit to contributory pension). If there is a gap then that is the business of the Unions and the company not the public

Unions will decide on Friday whether to down tools, 87 per cent of workers voted for industrial action. Of course as strike if it dug deep would also hit industry.

The average ESB salary is 65k a year.

Whats the Median salary?

Mardy Bum · 19-11-2013 02:10PM

jim_jim wrote: »

that's how averages work , just because the guy making the tea is on 20 k per year doesn't mean their are not many on over a hundred k per year

Obviously but the information the OP is using to make a case is useless for his cause therefore the median would be a much better stat.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-11-2013 02:17PM

Fire the lot of them if they go on strike. There's such a disconnect between people paid through the government and people paid in the private world.

The 13% who don't go on strike can be kept, hire a whole new workforce to make up the rest. Between the East West Interconnector we have with Britain and electricity from the north we'll be fine.

The government should retain 51% of the company and sell the rest to the private sector.

Slutmonkey57b · 19-11-2013 02:17PM

jim_jim wrote: »

explain

Fractional reserve banking. All banks are a ponzi scam. They all operate on the basis that they give money from "new" entrants to "newer" entrants, charge interest, and hope very few people come knocking on the door for their money in the interim.

Exactly like a ponzi scheme. Take in X, promise to pay out Y, hope nobody actually asks for the money until enough suckers sign up with Y.

Ask yourself how a bank can provide a current or savings account with physical branches, call centres, online servicing, atm fleets, cash storage, and systems contact with other banks without charging thousands in fees. Answer: they can't. But they do.

srsly78 · 19-11-2013 02:19PM

Slutmonkey the conspiracy theory forum is that way ->

Stuffing cash into your mattress is also a ponzi scheme following your logic. Should we stock up on seashells or bitcoins instead?

intellectual dosser · 19-11-2013 02:23PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

wrong time to start that carry on

the abuse they will receive from the public on the picket line will be fun

If they strike and the lights go out then there wont be much for us to do except head down and let them know what we think.

I'm sick to my guts of unions threatening strikes given the circumstances everyone is in. This Union's grief isnt with current pay or working conditions, it's insuring they'll get their money in the distant future.

Slutmonkey57b · 19-11-2013 02:25PM

srsly78 wrote: »

Slutmonkey the conspiracy theory forum is that way ->

Stuffing cash into your mattress is also a ponzi scheme following your logic. Should we stock up on seashells or bitcoins instead?

It's not a conspiracy theory at all. Fractional reserve banking works just like that. The banks have less on deposit than they have in liabilities. So does a ponzi scheme. The difference is public perception, not fact. That's why you hear commentaters being concerned about "customer confidence" with banks. What happens in a bank run is exactly what happened to investors in madoff: "whoops we said your money was here but it isn't".

srsly78 · 19-11-2013 02:26PM

Yes but it's a completely redundant point. "Hey lads, if civilisation collapses your money won't be worth **** all!"

Also your point above about banks not charging fees is laughable, they are gouging us all right now.

baddebt · 19-11-2013 02:33PM

hidinginthebush wrote: »

I heard it on the news that the pension deficit in ESB is over €1 billion, and they're contemplating strike because a dividend was paid out to the government rather than pumped into the pension fund. The governmanet own 95% of the ESB, so why the hell shouldn't they get to take a divident payment, it's not as if the country has money to spare. The dividend is €600 million, money the country could well use rather than letting it vanish into some mismanaged and over inflated pension fund.

in 2010 pension agreement within ESB the board of mgmt , agreed that this €591m (from the sale of power stations) would be put into the pension pot , with the ESB workers agreeing to what is know as a career averge pension (ie your final pension is based on your average wage of your lifetime in the company , rather than based on your final salary which was normal) ,

now mgmt (after ring fencing ans securing their own pensions) have done a u-turn on the rest of us (by manipulating the books in order to get a credit rating to enable them borrow billions on the markets) ,

any employee in ESB prior to 1995 is not entitled to ANY STATE pension (because of a deal then done between Gov and ESB)

I'm here almost 10 years , have put 18,000 into my pension (a compulsory pension ,...i did not want to join , but had no option) ,
now take some who has 40 years service , gave their life to the company only to find , now , after pumping in 72000 into there pension( i'm basing that on my contribution) , now they find they are retiring tomorrow ....no pension , no state pension .
SOUND FAIR ? I THINK NOT .
for the record my earnings are €32k pa , no bonus's , no perks , no expenses no extras.

srsly78 · 19-11-2013 02:37PM

It's not fair, but it seems to be pretty normal in the PS these days.

Old members = gold-plated untouchables
New members = suck it up

The unions don't give a damn about the new entrants. All of the new teachers and other PS workers etc should form a new union tbh.

Frankie5Angels · 19-11-2013 02:41PM

jim_jim wrote: »

ogle is an obnoxious charlatan

Couldn't agree more.

Tow wrote: »

It was/is company practice to give 'promotions' a year or so before an employee retired

Proof/Link? I call complete and utter b0ll0cks.:rolleyes:

Corkbah · 19-11-2013 02:51PM

baddebt wrote: »

in 2010 pension agreement within ESB the board of mgmt , agreed that this €591m (from the sale of power stations) would be put into the pension pot , with the ESB workers agreeing to what is know as a career averge pension (ie your final pension is based on your average wage of your lifetime in the company , rather than based on your final salary which was normal) ,

now mgmt (after ring fencing ans securing their own pensions) have done a u-turn on the rest of us (by manipulating the books in order to get a credit rating to enable them borrow billions on the markets) ,

any employee in ESB prior to 1995 is not entitled to ANY STATE pension (because of a deal then done between Gov and ESB)

I'm here almost 10 years , have put 18,000 into my pension (a compulsory pension ,...i did not want to join , but had no option) ,
now take some who has 40 years service , gave their life to the company only to find , now , after pumping in 72000 into there pension( i'm basing that on my contribution) , now they find they are retiring tomorrow ....no pension , no state pension .
SOUND FAIR ? I THINK NOT .
for the record my earnings are €32k pa , no bonus's , no perks , no expenses no extras.

you got any proof of what management have alleged to have done !!!

(or is it just claims unions have made to make the workers angry and lean towards a strike)

I can't speak for your union but from my own experience those who represent the unions usually protect their own pockets and those of management before fighting for the "little" ordinary worker.

jim_jim · 19-11-2013 03:13PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If they strike and the lights go out then there wont be much for us to do except head down and let them know what we think.

I'm sick to my guts of unions threatening strikes given the circumstances everyone is in. This Union's grief isnt with current pay or working conditions, it's insuring they'll get their money in the distant future.

unions are right to represent their workers as best they can but their not elected by the people and the government should be more willing to stand up to unions instead of appeasing them as has been government policy for decades

ogle is someone I have a particular dislike for , he,s a hypocrite of epic proportions

jim_jim · 19-11-2013 03:15PM

srsly78 wrote: »

It's not fair, but it seems to be pretty normal in the PS these days.

Old members = gold-plated untouchables
New members = suck it up

The unions don't give a damn about the new entrants. All of the new teachers and other PS workers etc should form a new union tbh.

that will continue until a majority of people under forty ( or thereabouts ) realise that older people are not only not vulnerable in this country , they don't give a crap about the young and are happy to pull up the ladder

Ireland is incredibly ageist ( against the young )

MadsL · 19-11-2013 03:28PM

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

Frankie5Angels · 19-11-2013 03:53PM

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

You can join that self-same swimming pool and can also avail of private health insurance. Do you consider yourself to be the recipient of gold-plated benefits?

niallo27 · 19-11-2013 04:20PM

MadsL wrote: »

baddebt, may I ask if other gold-plated benefits have also been done away with?

1. Pretty nice swimming pool and sport centre in Dublin.
2. Heavily subsidised canteen.
3. Health insurance (which I personally know of a case where health benefits extended to the grandchildren of a retired ESB worker)

I go that at my company, well not the grandchildren thing, I would not consider them gold plated benefits.

WoollyRedHat · 19-11-2013 04:29PM

Will the last person in Ireland, put the lights.... oh wait.

Technoprisoner · 19-11-2013 04:30PM

damn esb workers...sack the lot of them....and while we are at it string up those union leaders.

all i will say is who will get the blame when its your pension thats in the ****s and you face to loose everything you worked hard all your life for

srsly78 · 19-11-2013 04:36PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

damn esb workers...sack the lot of them....and while we are at it string up those union leaders.

all i will say is who will get the blame when its your pension thats in the ****s and you face to loose everything you worked hard all your life for

Just a wild guess, but is the answer: "de bankers" by any chance? Alternatively, is it "de foriners"?

end of the road · 19-11-2013 04:50PM

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

I guess they have a right to oppose a perceived injustice and I'm not sure what relevance an average salary has? An electricity cut would be devastating but strong unions are a rare breed these days, and we probably need more of them. If I was a member of one, I'd certainly appreciate a bit of bite when needed.

exactly, without unions over the years we'd still be working in the sweat shop conditions of the industrial revolution, fair play to our boy brendan

suicide_circus · 19-11-2013 04:55PM

public sector union mantra:

old members: protect entitlements to the bitter end regardless how unsustainable.

young members: throw under the bus.

Unions well reap what they sow when all these mature members are dead/retired and all the young members see them as useless

end of the road · 19-11-2013 04:55PM

mike65 wrote: »

To not put the rest of us in misery? That a union has a beef is never a reason to bring the country to a grinding halt.

yes it is, sometimes we all have to suffer for the greater good, solidarity with our fellow boys and girls

mike65 wrote: »

Its not the 70s.

more to the pitty, with the way things are going with people putting up with any old crap in their work place with conditions and pay were going backwards

mike65 wrote: »

No ESB family is popping a 50c piece into a pay as you go meter.

so?

end of the road · 19-11-2013 05:02PM

diomed wrote: »

If they strike then it is an opportunity for the Government to dismantle the ESB. Bring it on.

oh yeah, i completely agree, sell off everything to private companies and watch your electricity payments rise to ridiculous levels, paying triple on your bill for the privilage of only a hand full of companies sounds good to me.

periodictable · 19-11-2013 05:04PM

Fire all the workers, bring in the army to run the show,arrest the union bosses and rehire the workers at lower wages.

srsly78 · 19-11-2013 05:12PM

And get sued for breaking contracts? End up paying out compensation. It isn't that simple.

end of the road · 19-11-2013 05:14PM

animaal wrote: »

In the real world, what happens with DB schemes that fall short? Benefits get reduced. The schemes get wound up. There's no requirement for a company to pour all its funds into a pension scheme.

Unions have to learn that they don't own or manage companies. They put far more effort into issues like this, and into power grabs (Eircom ESOT) than they do into real injustice (e.g. Irish Ferries).

I'll gladly suffer the results of industrial action, if the government can stick to its guns and break the stranglehold the unions have over the country.

if the government try to break any of the vital power the unions have then the unions should do whatever is necessary to both bring down the government and if necessary bring the lot down with them to make sure that private companies don't touch ireland with a barge pole, the unions don't have any stranglehold on the country, and anyone who wants their powers to be stopped are a severe threat to the working man and woman and must be stopped from doing anything to stop them from protecting their members, the unions are vital and must be able to fight for their members, ireland must not be allowed to go back to the days of the industrial revolution and the unions are vital to ensure that doesn't happen at least for their members, their is employment laws but unions are needed to make sure employers are obeying them

end of the road · 19-11-2013 05:28PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Fire the lot of them if they go on strike.

why? their entitled to strike, why should they not fight against what is going on just because you can't, the world doesn't work like that, if they fire them it would cost to much as it would be more workers on the dole and the tax take from their replacements would be less so costing the country.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There's such a disconnect between people paid through the government and people paid in the private world.

who cares? its not the job of the public or private sectors to care about each other, the private sector will never be the public sector and the public sector will never be the private sector, people need to stop whinjing about how things are in the private sector when members of the public sector go on strike, nobody cares, one of the perks of the public sector is that you will be payed more, the private sector has perks as well whether people like to believe it or not.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The 13% who don't go on strike can be kept

ah how lovely, the whole work force must be kept as their the best in their field in ireland

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

hire a whole new workforce to make up the rest.

with less experteese and lesser wages meaning less tax for the government, no thanks, the current work force are grand and are the best in their field.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Between the East West Interconnector we have with Britain and electricity from the north we'll be fine.

no we won't, we need our own electricity to help keep the costs down, ireland not generating its electricity will mean costs go up and we'l be depending to much on other countries for electricity which will mean higher bills and severe problems if anything ever happened either in the north or britain that meant we couldn't get electricity from them.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The government should retain 51% of the company and sell the rest to the private sector.

yes, the perfect private sector who will give us cheep bills and who won't want to make a proffit from the 49 % they own because their such a charity, yeah right so

end of the road · 19-11-2013 05:35PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If they strike and the lights go out then there wont be much for us to do except head down and let them know what we think.

to which if people are acting in a threatening manner or causing problems the guardai should swiftly remove them by whatever force necessary.

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'm sick to my guts of unions threatening strikes given the circumstances everyone is in.

why? if we were all rolling in it would you have a problem then? the unions are fighting for their members, thats their job, not to care about me or you, it would be nice if they did but i don't expect them to, your probably not a member of a union fine, but others are and therefore if they have to strike as a last resort then thats how it has to be.

intellectual dosser wrote: »

This Union's grief isnt with current pay or working conditions, it's insuring they'll get their money in the distant future.

what money? their pensions? again what of it, the company agreed a certain amount for the pension fund, so therefore they have to deliver it, sure they shouldn't have agreed to as much in hindsight but they have

ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

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