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Religious child

1…34689…13

Comments

  • #152
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    J C wrote: »
    {..}

    If you wouldn't ... why do you call it 'child abuse' when she says the opposite?

    {...}

    This is the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen on these forums.

    Why would you call an adult beating a child 'child abuse' if you don't say it about the opposite?

    It's really a very poorly chosen argument.


  • #153
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    smacl wrote: »
    I disagree, I think by removing God and religion we have a far better opportunity to develop morally beyond simple carrot and stick tactics. You've associated atheism and materialism in a previous post, but it is Christian morality that encourages people to be primarily motivated by self interest. Do good, and you go to heaven. Do bad and you go to hell. I'd be wary of letting a good atheist kid anywhere near a Catholic priest, as the priest would be teaching fear, guilt and selfish morals. Fine if that's what you want for you kids, but at this stage I think as an evolved society we can do so much better.
    Human Beings are driven by self interest ... and Atheism can give them no reason to temper this self interest ... in a 'here and now' 'this is all there is' World there is every reason to maximise self interest - and very little reason to temper it.
    ... I'd like to hear how we can do much better ... but this is a topic for a different thread.


  • #154
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    J C wrote: »
    Always glad to help!!!:);)

    I forgot to mention the constant selective quoting and cherry-picking, but again J C helps fill out the examples of why J C is terrible at discussion. Well done you.


  • #155
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    33 posts, and this is the only one I could find containing advice to the parent as opposed to using this thread as a platform to preach your beliefs.
    You haven't been looking very hard.
    The entire thread provides plenty of opinion and advice on the situation - and I have responded to the opinion and advice offered by other posters on the thread.
    Every post of mine was a direct response to other posters, giving the Christian viewpoint.
    The situation at issue is one between an Atheist parent and a Christian child. I have been lending some balanced advice and opinion to an otherwise exclusively Atheist-dominated discussion on this 'inter-faith' situation.


  • #156
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    This is the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen on these forums.

    Why would you call an adult beating a child 'child abuse' if you don't say it about the opposite?

    It's really a very poorly chosen argument.
    You would call it 'parent abuse' or 'elder abuse' ... but that wasn't the point at issue.

    The point at issue is that it was suggested that telling a child about God (and her acceptance of God) constituted child abuse for Christians.
    ... and I was pointing out that this was trivialising a very serious criminal offense ... and this is borne out by the fact that telling a child that God doesn't exist (and her acceptance of this) doesn't constitutue child abuse for Atheists ... so why should it constitute child abuse for Christians to present their faith position to children?


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  • #157
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    J C wrote: »
    You haven't been looking very hard.
    The entire thread provides plenty of opinion and advice on the situation - and I have responded to the opinion and advice offered by other posters on the thread.
    Every post of mine was a direct response to other posters, giving the Christian viewpoint.
    The situation at issue is one between an Atheist parent and a Christian child. I have been lending balanced advice and opinion to an otherwise exclusively Atheist dominated discussion on this 'inter-faith' issue.

    The OP asked for advice on what she should do about her child being religious. You have just been arguing that religion is great with the posters, you have not been offering advice to the OP at all.

    Given your religious beliefs, the advice I would expect you to give would be something like "Get your child in contact with a priest." or "Let her go to Sunday school where she can learn more about our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ." or somesuch. Instead you have just said that she has been touched by God, and is religious. No advice on what the next steps to take should be, Christian or otherwise.
    J C wrote: »
    You would call it 'parent abuse' or 'elder abuse' ... but that wasn't the point at issue.

    The point at issue is that it was suggested that telling a child about God (and her acceptance of God) constituted child abuse for Christians.
    ... and I was pointing out that this was trivialising a very serious criminal offense ... and this is borne out by the fact that telling a child that God doesn't exist (and her acceptance of this) doesn't constitutue child abuse for Atheists ... so why should it constitute child abuse for Christians to present their faith position to children?

    That's a better response. I was simply pointing out that simply saying "If one thing is true, why wouldn't the opposite be also true?" is a terrible argument. That's all.


  • #158
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sarky wrote: »
    I forgot to mention the constant selective quoting and cherry-picking, but again J C helps fill out the examples of why J C is terrible at discussion. Well done you.
    Where have I selectively quoted or 'cherry picked'?
    I have answered practically every post ... which is some feat, given the multiplicity of posters and postings ... and the diversity of posting and the speed with which they came at me.


  • #159
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    The OP asked for advice on what she should do about her child being religious. You have just been arguing that religion is great with the posters, you have not been offering advice to the OP at all.

    Given your religious beliefs, the advice I would expect you to give would be something like "Get your child in contact with a priest." or "Let her go to Sunday school where she can learn more about our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ." or somesuch. Instead you have just said that she has been touched by God, and is religious. No advice on what the next steps to take should be, Christian or otherwise.
    Good post.
    The child appears to be Saved. There are many churches where the child can worship - and they are not all confined to Roman Catholicism. She appears to be primarily praying at home and in her room - and that is quite typical of a newly Save Christian. I don't think that this woman has anything to worry about ... but I can see how she could be disconcerted by this experience. I'm trying to empathise by reversing roles and wondering what I would do if one of my children were to suddenly start being an Atheist.
    I don't think there would be much I could do, other than talking to him/her about the reasons for their beliefs and presenting the reasons for mine. At the end of the day, however, I would have to respect their free decision ... and I would still love them as my child, whatever their chosen eternal destiny.
    This woman could accompany her child to church ... and please don't say I would say that ... if her Atheism is strong enough it won't make any difference ... and if the roles were reversed, I would certainly accompany my child to the local Atheist Sunday Assembly (or whatever it's called) ... to meet and greet!!

    As Christians we believe that the father is priest to his family ... I'd be interested in the fathers role in this situation. I don't wish to pry ... but the father could be a considerable help and support to the mother ... depending, of course, on what his views are and how actively he wishes to be involved.
    gaynorvader wrote: »
    That's a better response. I was simply pointing out that simply saying "If one thing is true, why wouldn't the opposite be also true?" is a terrible argument. That's all.
    I agree.
    However, when the opposite is similar in kind and degree ... then the principle of 'sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander' applies.


  • #160
    Gone West
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭Gone West


    J C wrote: »
    As for your 'fairy tales' comment ... I'd say that she looked at the altenative 'fairy tale' and she didn't like the fact that nobody 'lived happily ever after' in it!!!:)
    This was one of the reasons that I decided to be Saved as well.
    Are you saying that you don't like reality so you are substituting one that works better for you?
    Cool.


  • #161
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Let's pretend the child has started believing in scientology or some other cult. Woyld there be posters on here advising the OP to let her explore the belief?

    Never mind scientology, would the likes of JC or Jimd be so blase (if it were their child) if it was Islam, or even a branch of christianity other than their own?

    Rhetorical question that, of course they would be horrified, and begin interfering in their child's "faith formation".


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  • #162
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    J C wrote: »
    This is a totally separate issue to sex or indeed other physical and temporal issues, where physical and psychological maturity is required.

    Exposing the utter nonsense of your argument in your own words. Hilarious.


  • #163
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Fuzzy wrote: »
    Are you saying that you don't like reality so you are substituting one that works better for you?
    Cool.
    I think we all like happy endings (and living happily ever after) ... don't you???

    It is also true that we all create much of the reality we live through by the decisions we make ... I like to make happy, successful, positive decisions ... and I find that the reality that often follows is ... you guessed it ... happy, successful and positive ... just like this smiley.:)

    It is never any harm to substitute your current reality ... for one that works better for you ... I do it all the time.


  • #164
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Piliger wrote: »
    Exposing the utter nonsense of your argument in your own words. Hilarious.
    Ah come on Piliger, is that any way to talk to a future friend?
    Hint - use words like 'invalidity' of the argument ... it sounds ... and looks better ... and you can remain friends with people afterwards.
    As a Christian, I will remain your friend ... but other people might not be so forgiving.

    Anyway, to answer your question...
    Our psychological maturity is a function of our physical and experiential maturity ... but our spirits (like all angelic beings) are eternal ... and therefore ageless and capable of making eternally-significant decisions from the moment of their conception. The spirits of children who die before they have the opportunity to make a Savation decision, do so at the point of physical death ... and their eternal spirits are just as capable of doing so, as any other person's spirit, in life.


  • #165
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Never mind scientology, would the likes of JC or Jimd be so blase (if it were their child) if it was Islam, or even a branch of christianity other than their own?

    Rhetorical question that, of course they would be horrified, and begin interfering in their child's "faith formation".
    I suppose we all want our children to 'follow in our footsteps' ... assuming we have thought it through and are happy with 'our footsteps'.
    However, our children are not ourselves ... they are free-willed and self-willed Beings capable of thinking for themselves ... and very often coming to totally different conclusions to ourselves.

    All we can do is to lay before them our ideas ... and hope and pray that they choose life and light.

    It can be disconcerting to have your child question your pet idea ... but if the idea is worthwhile, it should stand up to the questioning ... and if its not, then it deserves to be questioned ... and ultimately abandoned/amended, if it is found wanting.

    My children question me all the time ... it is good to talk ... and great to question!!

    I can empathise with the OP ... especially in view of the fact that the child is only 10 years old ... but children can rock your worldview and much more besides ... at almost any age.


  • #166
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭swampgas


    J C wrote: »
    I think we all like happy endings (and living happily ever after) ... don't you???

    Here's the thing: you are admitting here that you choose to believe in God because you like the idea of being saved. Not because you think it must be true. What beats me is how you can keep that up. The mental effort involved in continuously suppressing all those unwanted treacherous thoughts must be exhausting. After all, deep down you know you just pretend to believe in Salvation because it seems more attractive to you than the alternative, that's a thought that must be suppressed, right?

    Personally I prefer to accept what appears to be real, warts and all, rather than deliberately delude myself. In fact I seem to find myself incapable of pretending to believe in allegedly comforting lies, as deep down I would know it's not true. This seems to be a significant difference between atheists and theists: theists seem more capable of self-deception.

    This reminds me of robindch's point earlier that a lot of religious belief seems to center on deliberating not thinking about inconvenient, awkward or challenging truths. It shows up in debates as a brick-wall fingers-in-ears refusal to debate points that are apparently simply too painful to contemplate.

    As for the OP, I think there should be clear ground rules in place with any child minders or grandparents about what prosletysing is acceptable. Maybe the other adults in the child's life simply aren't aware that they are out of sync with the OPs wishes.


  • #167
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    J C wrote: »
    Ah come on Piliger, is that any way to talk to a future friend?
    Hint - use words like 'invalidity' of the argument ... it sounds ... and looks better ... and you can remain friends with people afterwards.
    As a Christian, I will remain your friend ... but other people might not be so forgiving.
    You clearly have an inflated opinion of your intelligence and your humorous talent. To us it just emphasises the nonsense you post.
    Anyway, to answer your question...
    Our psychological maturity is a function of our physical and experiential maturity ... but our spirits (like all angelic beings) are eternal ... and therefore ageless and capable of making eternally-significant decisions from the moment of their conception. The spirits of children who die before they have the opportunity to make a Savation decision, do so at the point of physical death ... and their eternal spirits are just as capable of doing so, as any other person's spirit, in life.
    So another unfounded, baseless fantasy trip. It is astounding how dumb some people are to buy into this drivel.


  • #168
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    swampgas wrote: »
    Personally I prefer to accept what appears to be real, warts and all, rather than deliberately delude myself.

    When you think about it, religious people like this have a lot in common with drug heads. They both prefer to spend their lives in a deluded world than face the beauty and amazing reality that we enjoy so much.


  • #169
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    swampgas wrote: »
    Here's the thing: you are admitting here that you choose to believe in God because you like the idea of being saved. Not because you think it must be true. What beats me is how you can keep that up. The mental effort involved in continuously suppressing all those unwanted treacherous thoughts must be exhausting. After all, deep down you know you just pretend to believe in Salvation because it seems more attractive to you than the alternative, that's a thought that must be suppressed, right?
    You are correct that I choose to believe in God ... but I do so because I know He exists ... so I have no 'mental gymnastics' to overcome at all.
    swampgas wrote: »
    Personally I prefer to accept what appears to be real, warts and all, rather than deliberately delude myself. In fact I seem to find myself incapable of pretending to believe in allegedly comforting lies, as deep down I would know it's not true. This seems to be a significant difference between atheists and theists: theists seem more capable of self-deception.
    I accept that the World can be tough ... but I choose to not make it any tougher, by the decisons I make ... and do you know what? ... nine times out of ten it works out great.
    I look at what is 'real' ... and I change it for the better, by the decisions I take.

    Just because it's raining ... doesn't mean that I have to get wet!!!:)

    swampgas wrote: »
    This reminds me of robindch's point earlier that a lot of religious belief seems to center on deliberating not thinking about inconvenient, awkward or challenging truths. It shows up in debates as a brick-wall fingers-in-ears refusal to debate points that are apparently simply too painful to contemplate.
    Its a fair point ... some religious people haven't thought through many things (and some Atheists haven't done so either) ... and when they are questioned ... they run about with their fingers in their ears trying to 'shoot the messenger' ... or simply using some dogma or other as a defense.

    swampgas wrote: »
    As for the OP, I think there should be clear ground rules in place with any child minders or grandparents about what prosletysing is acceptable. Maybe the other adults in the child's life simply aren't aware that they are out of sync with the OPs wishes.
    You can make all the ground rules you like ... but hard-pressed parents are only too happy to avail of free child-minding from grandparents (who may have a Christian agenda) ... and other parents are only too happy to sit their children before a TV pushing a Materialistic agenda ... or even God TV.

    This is almost inevitable, in a multi-cultural society in transition.
    We can have all the ground rules we like ... but our children will be exposed to many ideas that we don't agree with ... and its up to us to keep up to speed with it all, and have the answers to the questions that will come ... if we want our children to share our worldview.


  • #170
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭swampgas


    J C wrote: »
    You are correct that I choose to believe in God ... but I do so because I know He exists ... so I have no 'mental gymnastics' to overcome at all.

    But surely you can't choose to believe something you know?

    I don't choose to believe in gravity, I know it exists - at least, in the sense that I understand the words "choose" and "know".

    If you know God exists, surely choice doesn't come into it?


  • #171
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Piliger wrote: »
    When you think about it, religious people like this have a lot in common with drug heads. They both prefer to spend their lives in a deluded world than face the beauty and amazing reality that we enjoy so much.
    There are no Saved Christians that I know of who are on drugs.

    This world is made up of evil and good, ugliness and beauty ... we can choose good over evil, beauty over ugliness, light over darkness.

    There is no comparison between a drug addict and a Saved Christian ... even though some Saved Christians were once drug addicts.
    Drug addicts are people who should be Saved Christians ... but who aren't ... yet.

    I live in the real World ... and I find it to be an amazing place ... and I enjoy it thoroughly ... both the thrills and the spills...
    ... but I also know of an even more amazing place ... and it called Heaven ... where all your birthdays will come together every day!!


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  • #172
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    swampgas wrote: »
    But surely you can't choose to believe something you know?
    Why not?

    I believe in the power and the love of God for me... and I know He exists.

    swampgas wrote: »
    I don't choose to believe in gravity, I know it exists - at least, in the sense that I understand the words "choose" and "know".

    If you know God exists, surely choice doesn't come into it?
    I can believe in Him ... or I can reject Him and all He stands for.
    It's a bit like getting married ... you choose to believe in and trust your spouse ... and you also know your spouse.


  • #173
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭swampgas


    J C wrote: »
    Why not?

    I believe in the power and the love of God for me... and I know He exists.

    I can believe in Him ... or I can reject Him and all He stands for.
    It's a bit like getting married ... you choose you spouse ... and you know your spouse.

    You see this does look a little bit like mental gymnastics to me: you seem to be redefining what words like "choose" and "know" and "believe" mean.

    I still don't understand why you would say that you choose to believe something that you also claim to know to be true. The latter makes the former redundant.

    Now, it might be the case that you can choose to believe in something that deep down you know to be false ... that would make more sense, as it involves a decision (a choice) to suppress a known truth, and replace it with a more palatable fiction. But to choose to believe something you know to be true seems excessive.


  • #174
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Piliger wrote: »
    You clearly have an inflated opinion of your intelligence and your humorous talent. To us it just emphasises the nonsense you post.


    So another unfounded, baseless fantasy trip. It is astounding how dumb some people are to buy into this drivel.
    ... and I always speak so highly of you!!!:eek:

    Do you have anything specific (about the thread topic) that you can cite where the above applies?

    ... or are you just going to regaile us with unfounded generalisations?


  • #175
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    J C wrote: »
    ... or are you just going to regaile us with unfounded generalisations?

    It would be a nice break from you doing it all the damn time.


  • #176
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    swampgas wrote: »
    You see this does look a little bit like mental gymnastics to me: you seem to be redefining what words like "choose" and "know" and "believe" mean.

    I still don't understand why you would say that you choose to believe something that you also claim to know to be true. The latter makes the former redundant.
    I can choose to believe in some political leader, for example ... or I can choose to reject him and all that he stands for ... this is based on the fact that I know s/he exists.

    This is bringing me back to Sesame Street ... and how many ways you can use the word 'know'!!:)
    Thanks 'Big Bird' ... I just knew it would all be useful some day!!:)
    swampgas wrote: »
    Now, it might be the case that you can choose to believe in something that deep down you know to be false ... that would make more sense, as it involves a decision (a choice) to suppress a known truth, and replace it with a more palatable fiction. But to choose to believe something you know to be true seems excessive.
    ... its 'believing in' ... or 'rejecting' ... and it therefore isn't excessive.


  • #177
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sarky wrote: »
    It would be a nice break from you doing it all the damn time.
    Specifically where have I done this?


  • #178
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Specifically, every single one of your posts. We've done this dance before, just stop it now.


  • #179
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sarky wrote: »
    Specifically, every single one of your posts. We've done this dance before, just stop it now.
    We have ... but I'm not letting you away with it this time.

    Please cite a post where I have made unfounded generalisations ... and please stop engaging in unfounded gemeralisations yourself.

    This is now way off topic ... so I guess you are 'saved by the bell'!!!


  • #180
    Days 298
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Days 298


    J C wrote: »
    Funny thing ... but some people of faith tell me that Atheism is the home of brainwashing ... with North Korea being the most blatant example.
    I think, like many things, the truth lies somewhere in between ... and people of both faith and none have engaged in their fair share of brainwashing down the years.

    If youd mentioned Pol Pot and Stalin youd have had the holy trinity. You even went as far to somehow claim atheism has brainwashed North Korea. Cant go more vague than that.


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  • #181
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Days 298 wrote: »
    If youd mentioned Pol Pot and Stalin youd have had the holy trinity. You even went as far to somehow claim atheism has brainwashed North Korea. Cant go more vague than that.
    The point I'm making is that no worldview has a monopoly on virtue or vice ... and it ill behoves those in glasshouses to throw stones.
    All worldviews are held by people ... who can be good or bad ... happy or sad ...
    ... and everything in-between.

    Like I've said ... we're all so brainwashed ... from so many directions, at this stage ... that we must have the cleanest brains in the history of the World ... at least since the Flood, anyway!!!:)

    ... and getting back to the OP and her child ... I think she should listen to her child about why she believes in God ... and tell her child why she doesn't ... and who knows, they might both gain valuable insights, from the exercise.


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