Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Millicent · 03-11-2013 03:22PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I wonder what the reaction would be if a germab agency placed an ad 'we'll take care of you for the next few years since your government can't". Why are people so enthusiastic to be patronised by uk?

Oh and as far as I know they get paid by those who are not covered by nhs.

Edit: actually if this is just advertisement for commercial service then I have no problem with it.

Because Germany isn't taking a mass of Irish women every year--the UK does.

Your point about them getting paid by the Irish women actually makes their message stronger. If their ad is effective, they will be costing themselves money. That's how important they think the message is.

meeeeh · 03-11-2013 03:49PM

Millicent wrote: »

Because Germany isn't taking a mass of Irish women every year--the UK does.

Your point about them getting paid by the Irish women actually makes their message stronger. If their ad is effective, they will be costing themselves money. That's how important they think the message is.

If their ad is effective they will have more customers.

And my comment about Germany was regarding bailout. No country likes to be told what to do by foreign agencies (or at least so I thought). I find it patronizing or even insulting and it doesn't matter if it is comming from jd or other side.

Millicent · 03-11-2013 04:25PM

meeeeh wrote: »

If their ad is effective they will have more customers.

It's not so much an ad advertising their services as it is a campaign ad pointing out their feelings on how the Irish government treat Irish women who wish to have an abortion.

So in the short term, maybe it will increase the number of women who use their services. If the campaign message is successful, though, they're effectively cutting off their nose to spite their face, as in the long term it will mean they don't see Irish women.

Paddy Cow · 03-11-2013 04:43PM

meeeeh wrote: »

If their ad is effective they will have more customers.

And my comment about Germany was regarding bailout. No country likes to be told what to do by foreign agencies (or at least so I thought). I find it patronizing or even insulting and it doesn't matter if it is comming from jd or other side.

I see it more as goading the government, rather than patronising the people.

Morag · 03-11-2013 06:03PM

It's not an ad, it does not list or advertised any good or services or have a contact number or website address, were you can get goods or services. It is a notice, same as what YD ran all over the country.

It has been ran to keep the lack of abortion rights and the lack of services and compassion women face here, in the public mind. The legislation which was passed last July is still not enacted and does not cover women's right to health or fetal fatal abnormalities or the women who can afford to travel.

Jerrica · 03-11-2013 06:27PM

meeeeh wrote: »

If their ad is effective they will have more customers.

The BPAS are not touting for business. Jesus. The ad execs didn't sit around a table, scratching their heads, looking to figure out what untapped market they could target next.

Abortion is not a particular pleasant experience for anyone involved. In running the ad the BPAS were trying to point out that in addition to the trauma of having to undergo the procedure, women from Ireland also have added cost and travel pressure - a wholly unnecessary evil in an already horrible situation.

The only people patronising us is our own government who will not afford women the right to make the best decsions for their own bodies.

Morag · 03-11-2013 06:44PM

BPAS British Pregnancy Advisory Services is a registered Charity.
They are a reproductive healthcare service for men and women, all types of contraception including vasectomy
as well as crises pregnancy counseling about all the options.

http://www.bpas.org/bpaswoman/pregnancy-choices

meeeeh · 03-11-2013 07:30PM

Jerrica wrote: »

The only people patronising us is our own government who will not afford women the right to make the best decsions for their own bodies.

People vote in governments and Ireland has actually one of the most direct election systems in the Europe.

And I know exactly why the ad was placed. It just strikes me as kind of sad if external pressure has to be applied for some thing that apparently all women want.

Paddy Cow · 03-11-2013 09:00PM

meeeeh wrote: »

People vote in governments and Ireland has actually one of the most direct election systems in the Europe.

And I know exactly why the ad was placed. It just strikes me as kind of sad if external pressure has to be applied for some thing that apparently all women want.

That's exactly the point. It is sad that it looks like it is going to take outside pressure to change things inside the country. I don't see it as patronising though.

"apparently all women want"
Not all women want abortion laws. These women will not be affected if abortion legislation is introduced. Someone who wants an abortion can get one and someone who doesn't want an abortion doesn't have to have one.

RDM_83 again · 06-11-2013 01:18AM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That's exactly the point. It is sad that it looks like it is going to take outside pressure to change things inside the country. I don't see it as patronising though.

Question:

Why is outside intervention in the form of money from the USA by private donors to influence the Irish population/government bad (the moneys to certain pro-life groups)

But a UK agency spending money in the ROI to influence the population/government is a good thing?

Consistency is a virtue!

Genuine question here but have they been taking out ads in Northern Ireland too?

Frito · 06-11-2013 03:01AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Question:

Why is outside intervention in the form of money from the USA by private donors to influence the Irish population/government bad (the moneys to certain pro-life groups)

But a UK agency spending money in the ROI to influence the population/government is a good thing?

Consistency is a virtue!

As much as I disagree with them, pro-life groups have a right to lobby.

I object to the misinformation peddled. Youth defence still argue abortion is bad for mental health. There is no evidence for this. If BPAS used spurious research to argue for compulsory abortions then I would object to that also.

I also object to methods used. I've yet to see BPAS hanging round obstetrics depts trying to guilt-trip pregnant women into abortions for the sake of humanity and ecology, else keep yer knickers on missus. I don't recall BPAS persuading every woman who seeks their advice to have an abortion, offering to pay for flights and accommodation, then feck all once the procedure's done.

So overall, my opinion is the quality of the lobbying on both sides is markedly different. If consistency is a virtue then informed choice is divine.

Paddy Cow · 06-11-2013 11:25AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Question:

Why is outside intervention in the form of money from the USA by private donors to influence the Irish population/government bad (the moneys to certain pro-life groups)

But a UK agency spending money in the ROI to influence the population/government is a good thing?

Consistency is a virtue!

Genuine question here but have they been taking out ads in Northern Ireland too?

I never said it was bad

If they want to spend their money on the anti-abortion debate, that's their business.

RDM_83 again · 06-11-2013 02:25PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I never said it was bad If they want to spend their money on the anti-abortion debate, that's their business.

Oh I didn't mean you personally but I have seen plenty of posters complaining about American funding for Irish pro-life groups. Its probably a bit of a pet peeve of mine that methods that are freely criticized when the "other side does it" but the ends justify the means when its your own side. Possibly a better example would be I had plenty of posts in my facebook feed about that epic filibuster in Texas some of the same people would think that filibuster is completely undemocratic and used to squash positive social reform like gun control.

Frito wrote: »

So overall, my opinion is the quality of the lobbying on both sides is markedly different. If consistency is a virtue then informed choice is divine.

I won't disagree there! To me most of the pro-life stuff reminds me of the hard core unionist approach, they don't see how they alienate people and how they are perceived externally, I mean a guy in my class was a Priest (liberal though and has since left the priesthood) and he was disgusted over they're lack of compassion.

eviltwin · 06-11-2013 02:30PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Oh I didn't mean you personally but I have seen plenty of posters complaining about American funding for Irish pro-life groups. Its probably a bit of a pet peeve of mine that methods that are freely criticized when the "other side does it" but the ends justify the means when its your own side. Possibly a better example would be I had plenty of posts in my facebook feed about that epic filibuster in Texas some of the same people would think that filibuster is completely undemocratic and used to squash positive social reform like gun control.

.

I don't think pro choice people object to any pro life group advertising or doing an ad campaign or even getting funding from overseas, its when that money and those ads are used to peddle lies or to emotionally blackmail pregnant women or make those who have chosen abortion feel bad thats objectionable.

B0jangles · 06-11-2013 02:35PM

The difference to me is that the US pro-life groups funnel funding into irish groups who absolutely refuse to reveal the source of their money and who like to pose as being spokespeople for a silent majority when (according to every poll in the last 10 years) they represent at most 10% of the population. The huge (and secret) funding they receive from outside sources gives them a much bigger platform than they would have if they had to rely on their own supporters in this country.

BPAS is openly presenting itself as a British group who provide abortion services to Irish women - when they comment they are not posing as anything but who and what they are.

RDM_83 again · 06-11-2013 02:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't think pro choice people object to any pro life group advertising or doing an ad campaign or even getting funding from overseas, its when that money and those ads are used to peddle lies or to emotionally blackmail pregnant women or make those who have chosen abortion feel bad thats objectionable.

I know that there's an issue with the ads but to me posts like this show that posters here do have an issue with money being received from oversees. And thats taken me literally a minute to find i am sure there's tons more examples.

Gongoozler wrote: »

So I was looking at the printed leaflets which are actually getting people to sign up to a mailing list, and thought hmmm I wonder where the money is coming from,

krudler wrote: »

One of the shadiest organisations in the country too, massive funding from the US, pushing right wing Christian agenda over here. I missed them campaigning around the estate recently, pity, slamming the door in their face would have made my day.

meeeeh · 06-11-2013 02:52PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't think pro choice people object to any pro life group advertising or doing an ad campaign or even getting funding from overseas...

I find it objectionable. I find JD adds absolutely disgusting and objectionable in just about any way I can think of. But that doesn't mean I have to cheer on any campaign the other side does.

Millicent · 06-11-2013 03:35PM

For me, the fundamental difference is that BPAS has a direct and personal stake in our abortion laws.

U.S. pro-life groups do not.

Morag · 06-11-2013 04:31PM

I was at a speak out event last month, at which there were speakers and Irish women sharing their abortion stories.
Anne Furedi the head of BPAS was there and said that she wished things would change here in Ireland
so that no more women would travel from Ireland to the UK for services we should have here in our own country.

RDM_83 again · 06-11-2013 06:49PM

Millicent wrote: »

For me, the fundamental difference is that BPAS has a direct and personal stake in our abortion laws.

U.S. pro-life groups do not.

Ok thats a bit of strange view point or at least one that completely fails to comprehend the opposing viewpoint, if one is pro-life (on the harder end of things), one views the fetus as a living human being, and abortion as morally repugnant.
If you hold that view point surely you have a direct moral stake in what happens in other countries even if your not "directly involved".
Doesn't that mean nearly any overseas charity that involves campaigning to change unequal laws or cultural mores isn't acceptable?

B0jangles · 06-11-2013 09:51PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok thats a bit of strange view point or at least one that completely fails to comprehend the opposing viewpoint, if one is pro-life (on the harder end of things), one views the fetus as a living human being, and abortion as morally repugnant.
If you hold that view point surely you have a direct moral stake in what happens in other countries even if your not "directly involved".
Doesn't that mean nearly any overseas charity that involves campaigning to change unequal laws or cultural mores isn't acceptable?

Why do they lie about their involvement in funding Irish anti-abortion groups if they believe themselves to be 100% on the morally correct side of the argument?

Millicent · 06-11-2013 10:32PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok thats a bit of strange view point or at least one that completely fails to comprehend the opposing viewpoint, if one is pro-life (on the harder end of things), one views the fetus as a living human being, and abortion as morally repugnant.
If you hold that view point surely you have a direct moral stake in what happens in other countries even if your not "directly involved".
Doesn't that mean nearly any overseas charity that involves campaigning to change unequal laws or cultural mores isn't acceptable?

It's not really. I see what you're saying here, but I agree with exactly what BOjangles said before my post (I missed hers when I posted mine.) To add to that, the groups that fund YD aren't charities; they're fundamentalist lobby groups. They don't offer any sort of service to women with crisis pregnancies. They don't use their money to offer impartial counselling. They don't collect funds for women who decide to keep their babies. What they do is to try to influence the political process in Ireland from far across the water--and even then, they don't just come out and admit that. They shroud their involvement in mystery: most people don't even know where YD gets its funding.

On the other hand, BPAS offers a direct service to women with crisis pregnancies, has a direct involvement with their wellbeing, and doesn't try to hide what they are from anyone.

To repeat, the people who fund YD are not a charity. From what I can see, they don't know the meaning of the word.

Millicent · 06-11-2013 10:35PM

To add something more, the groups that fund Youth Defence don't do it from the goodness of their heart. They don't do it in the best interests of anyone else--after all, they lie rampantly in their literature. They don't do it because they care about those who experience a crisis pregnancy; they do it because they hate women and don't think they can be trusted to make their own decisions.

Not a popular opinion, but it's mine.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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