Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1

Phoebas · 27-10-2013 08:24AM

roughneck wrote: »

i agree with curly judge,if there was even the slightest doubt ,which there was ,i.e the couple in greece did not have right documents for the child .i have no children but i would be a little reassured by the fact that police forces are checking up on situations that look dodgy ,so what if 9 out of10 are legit its the one your looking for and thats a result .

By your 'slightest doubt' standard, almost every child in the country could be taken off their parents, probably including yours.
In reality, there is a much higher standard which, on the face of it, doesn't seem to have been applied in these two cases.

27-10-2013 10:13AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I find the pompous, scattergun accusations of racism on this thread farcical and quite frankly hysterical.
It's as if a bunch of first year sociology students have gotten together on this site and are vying to outdo each other with ascending levels of faux outrage.
To answer your question as posed above: It's not obvious to me. I think that at worst they made a mistake. At best they intervened to prevent a possibly greater evil. The fact that the little girl in Dublin and the little boy in Westmeath were traumatized in the process was deeply regrettable,I'll give you that.
But racism...I don't think so!

So you think it's fine to go around taking away brown people's children because they don't look much like them? Because of one story in Greece, which actually turned out to be a total non-story? This entire sorry chain of events was sparked by someone making a mistake, making an assumption that a dark couple couldn't possibly have a light-skinned child. We have now established that in all three of the cases in the media, all three children concerned were Roma. If there was any faux outrage, it was from all the people calling Roma child snatchers, connecting the case to Madeleine McCann and spreading all sorts of unfounded rumours.

The worst part about people like you is you can bet your bottom dollar you'd be outraged if the police worldwide started profiling Irish people based on one story about one Irish person. There was outrage on the 'Irish people aren't being given jobs in Australia because everyone thinks they're drunken knackers' thread, and that was far, far less serious than this. Let's see how you'd like to be dragged out of bed by the police and have your kids taken away based on the fact that one Irish person in another country has been found with a kid who isn't biologically theirs. Can you say you'd be fine with it? You wouldn't consider it discrimination?

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 10:49AM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

The worst part about people like you...

:rolleyes:

27-10-2013 10:53AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Yeah, thought so. It's hard to defend racism.

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 11:51AM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

Yeah, thought so. It's hard to defend racism.

I joined this conversation with post number 319.
Perhaps you could point out one sentence where I defended racism since then.
What I have tried to defend is peoples right to express a wide range of opinion on the operation of section 12 of the childcare act without allowing it to be closed down by accusations of racism.
You would probably like to fire the Exocet missile of racism and go back to bed thinking, job done.
Sorry to disappoint you.

RustyNut · 27-10-2013 11:57AM

roughneck wrote: »

i agree with curly judge,if there was even the slightest doubt ,which there was

How about starting from, if there was even the slightest evidence of wrongdoing, which there was not.

cletus van damme · 27-10-2013 12:21PM

RustyNut wrote: »

How about starting from, if there was even the slightest evidence of wrongdoing, which there was not.

ok

the gardai came and asked questions.

the couple in tallaght

1. only had a passport with an infant photo
2. gave the gardai incorrect birth details of the child so the coombe couldn't verify details - in media this has varied from wrong surname to wrong DOB but either way it was grounds for doubt.
3. medical advice was that blonde haired would have been rare in that family setting.
4. (from todays' sunday world) there were previous child protection issues with the family in question.

now this adds up to decent circumstancial evidence.
and given the potential gravity of the potential issue - child trafficing , kidnapping etc.. I think the gardai were right to act as they did - assuming they did this in good faith.

There are people in the country (given full voice in the media and this website) who are like that kid in the 6th Sense. But instead of dead people they see racism and racists.
They have a hard-on for seeing racists everywhere.

This actually detracts from the fight against real racism because in terms of edcuation people associate the fight against racism with this hand wringing ****e and then switch off when their is a real fight out there.

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 12:46PM

A fascist bigot might say, "Exterminate all Roma"
A social scientist might say, "Lets help all Roma to integrate"
A Pavee Point spokesperson might say, "Let's give all Roma bus passes so they can continue their nomadic lifestyle"
My point is; all sides of the argument use the collective noun Roma to illustrate who they are talking about. That of itself is not racism. It's merely the conventional use of language.
When Pavee point use it to push their agenda then it's perfectly acceptable of course.
When people who have issues with Roma, based on first hand evidence, use the collective noun then it automatically undergoes a translation by the PC brigade into racial profiling and God knows how many other racist motives.
I suspect that they have a special PC Google Translates button on their computer and use it to "seek out" malefactors.

27-10-2013 12:53PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I joined this conversation with post number 319.
Perhaps you could point out one sentence where I defended racism since then.
What I have tried to defend is peoples right to express a wide range of opinion on the operation of section 12 of the childcare act without allowing it to be closed down by accusations of racism.
You would probably like to fire the Exocet missile of racism and go back to bed thinking, job done.
Sorry to disappoint you.

You're saying it's OK to make assumptions about an entire group of people based on the actions of one couple, to the extent that two families have their kids taken away based on one media story which actually turned out NOT to involve the abduction of any white European little girls. You're saying it's OK to make all these assumptions based on how someone looks, just in case theoretically there had been any wrongdoing.

What do you think racism is, exactly?

TommyKnocker · 27-10-2013 01:10PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

ok

there gardai came and asked questions.

the couple in tallaght

1. only had a passport with an infant photo
2. gave the gardai incorrect birth details of the child so the coombe couldn't verify details - in media this has varied from wrong surname to wrong DOB but either way it was grounds for doubt.
3. medical advice was that blonde haired would have been rare in that family setting.
4. (from todays' sunday world) there were previous child protection issues with the family in question.

now this adds up to decent circumstancial evidence.
and given the potential gravity of the potential issue - child trafficing , kidnapping etc.. I think the gardai were right to act as they did - assuming they did this in good faith.

There are people in the country (given full voice in the media and this website) who are like that kid in the 6th Sense. But instead of dead people they see racism and racists.
They have a hard-on for seeing racists everywhere.

This actually detracts from the fight against real racism because in terms of edcuation people associate the fight against racism with this hand wringing ****e and then switch off when their is a real fight out there.

So let me get this straight. Your saying that there was no racial profiling involved in these two cases (Athlone & Tallaght), is that correct?

Yet you want to highlight that the bastion of turth and fact that is the Sunday World printed that the couple in Tallaght have come to the attention of the Gardai for reasons of child pretection.

So what we get from this (and this is just my opinion) is that nothing awry was found by the Gardai previously. This is based on the fact that all the children were still living with the parents at their home, including the fair skinned, blue eyed girl.

Apparently on none of these occasions did the Gardai have any suspicions about the parentage of this pale skinned, blue eyed girl.

Fast forward to last week and a news story broke of a pale skinned, blue eyed girl being removed from her home and the adults she thought of as her parents on suspicions of being abducted. The adults happen to be Roma. Also the reopening of the Madeline McCann case is all over the news. Another little pale skinned girl that went missing.

So now somebody who obvisiously lives close by the Roma family in Tallaght and has seen this news story from Greece puts 2 and 2 together and gets 5. If a Roma couple in Greece are under suspicion of child abduction and have had a pale skinned, blue eyed child removed from them, the this must mean that ALL Roma, every last one, world wide are child abducters :rolleyes:. I better report the local family as child abducters as they also have a pale skinned, blue eyed girl living with them. But let's not report it to the proper authorities (The Gardai or Child Protection Services). Let's report it to the FB page of a TV station for the attention of a journalist who has a penchant for sensationalism :rolleyes:

So appartenly for no other reason than the family were Roma and had a pale skinned, blue eyed child living with them, this report to the TV stations TV page was sent.

This is the very definition of Racial Profiling.

Let's not forget that there have been no reports of white Irish couples being reported for having children of another race living with them or because they have a child with differnt colouring to them living with them.

So concern citizen reports Roma family via FB to journalist who contacts Gardai.

Gardai also being aware of the Greece case (you would have to be living in a cave in some desolate, remote area not to be aware of it) rush to the house of the Roma family in Tallaght (having been in contact with the family previously and having no issues with the girl in question). They find the young girl in question sitting watching TV with her family. They perform a cursory 2 hour investigation and even though they are provided with official documentation, they are not satisified that the child is from the parents through birth, they invoke section 12 of the Child Protection Act and remove the child from the family home, causing distress and emotional tramua to the child and the family.

Section 12 allows for a child to be removed when there is concern for the immediate health and welfare of the child.

This child was found sitting with her family in their home watching TV. There were no reports of her being physically abused, malnourished or mistreated in any way. She was not found in a cage, locked in a shed out the back, under the stairs etc. .

The young girl was in school and none of the teachers apparentlly raised any concerns over her safety and well being. The parents of this young girl had a passport for her. As the child was born in Ireland I am assuming that is was an Irish Passport. So the application form was signed by a witness and at the local Garda station be the guard on duty and apparenly no questions were raised at this point in time either.

But this child was still removed from her home by Gardai.

WHY???? What was the immediate threat to the health and welfare of this child?

IMHO because the parents were Roma and on the news, in Greece, another Roma couple were under suspicion for child abduction. I believe the Gardai went to the house with their minds set that they were possibly dealing with child abduction.

This is also the very definition of Racial Profiling, this time by an institution of the state.

TL;DR I think you are wrong in your comment

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 01:30PM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

You're saying it's OK to make assumptions about an entire group of people based on the actions of one couple, to the extent that two families have their kids taken away based on one media story which actually turned out NOT to involve the abduction of any white European little girls. You're saying it's OK to make all these assumptions based on how someone looks, just in case theoretically there had been any wrongdoing.

What do you think racism is, exactly?

If a witness to a crime said they saw the perpetrator flee the scene and described him as having a Rastafarian hairstyle, black skin and a short leg, would it make any sense for them to scour Westminster Road in Foxrock looking for a white, bald Caucasian pole vaulter?
My [admittedly crude] point is that profiling in police work takes place all the time.
When it works and they catch a serial killer, everyone is delighted.
When it blows up, as it seems to have done in this case, everyone is out for blood.
Unless something we are not yet aware of comes out in the inquiry, I think we should regroup, discuss, evaluate, form new guidelines and move on.

27-10-2013 01:41PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

If a witness to a crime said they saw the perpetrator flee the scene and described him as having a Rastafarian hairstyle, black skin and a short leg, would it make any sense for them to scour Westminster Road in Foxrock looking for a white, bald Caucasian pole vaulter?
My [admittedly crude] point is that profiling in police work takes place all the time.
When it works and they catch a serial killer, everyone is delighted.
When it blows up, as it seems to have done in this case, everyone is out for blood.
Unless something we are not yet aware of comes out in the inquiry, I think we should regroup, discuss, evaluate, form new guidelines and move on.

What an absolute ridiculous comparison. You're talking about looking for the suspect of a crime. A more accurate comparison would be a black man committing a crime and then every other black man in the city being stopped by the guards and spied on by 'concerned citizens'.

UCDVet · 27-10-2013 01:48PM

I feel like 90% of arguing on the internet follows this pattern....

Person A says X
Person B responds saying, 'SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU SUPPORT Y AND Z!'

I'm seeing a lot of that in this thread. Kinda makes me sad.

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 02:00PM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

What an absolute ridiculous comparison. You're talking about looking for the suspect of a crime. A more accurate comparison would be a black man committing a crime and then every other black man in the city being stopped by the guards and spied on by 'concerned citizens'.

Well when I'm at Dublin airport and about to board a plane I give every Middle Eastern looking passanger a really good looking over to see if I can detect any little tell tale sign of sweating or fidgeting or anxiety.
Were I to detect such signs I'd have no compunction in reporting it to security and letting them deal with it.
I'm sure I'd end up looking very silly but I'd gladly suffer that rather than have my remains floating around in the mid atlantic.
If that makes me a racist then so be it.
If, after twenty years without any middle eastern terrorist attacks I continued to do so then you would probably have a point.

zega · 27-10-2013 02:10PM

So whats the craic with the girl in greece,did they rob her or what?

TommyKnocker · 27-10-2013 02:10PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well when I'm at Dublin airport and about to board a plane I give every Middle Eastern looking passanger a really good looking over to see if I can detect any little tell tale sign of sweating or fidgeting or anxiety.
Were I to detect such signs I'd have no compunction in reporting it to security and letting them deal with it.
I'm sure I'd end up looking very silly but I'd gladly suffer that rather than have my remains floating around in the mid atlantic.
If that makes me a racist then so be it.
If, after twenty years without any middle eastern terrorist attacks I continued to do so then you would probably have a point.

Paranoid much? What a sad way to live your life IMHO.

cletus van damme · 27-10-2013 02:16PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

So let me get this straight. Your saying that there was no racial profiling involved in these two cases (Athlone & Tallaght), is that correct?

yes and no.

The gardai got a complaint about a specific family. The allegation was not a racial one but a specific one.
Nobody is privvy to the motivation of the person who made the compliant.
However (imagine) the compliant is racially based (we have no evidence but i'll go with you on this). Do it mean the complaint is incorrect? Should we discount it on the politics of the person making it?

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Yet you want to highlight that the bastion of turth and fact that is the Sunday World printed that the couple in Tallaght have come to the attention of the Gardai for reasons of child pretection.

yes and no again. only point 4 was from the sunday world. the rest were in all the media this week.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

So what we get from this (and this is just my opinion) is that nothing awry was found by the Gardai previously. This is based on the fact that all the children were still living with the parents at their home, including the fair skinned, blue eyed girl.

Apparently on none of these occasions did the Gardai have any suspicions about the parentage of this pale skinned, blue eyed girl.

Fast forward to last week and a news story broke of a pale skinned, blue eyed girl being removed from her home and the adults she thought of as her parents on suspicions of being abducted. The adults happen to be Roma. Also the reopening of the Madeline McCann case is all over the news. Another little pale skinned girl that went missing.

I don't disagree but when asked the parents didn't have answers. and this raised suspicions. I can tell you my kids names, bdays and hosiptals - I'm surprised they couldn't.
If the gardai's priority was child protection (which it should be) then all other stuff like racial niceties come second.
You may disagree with me - but imo racial harmony isn't the number one thing in the world , things like child protection supercede that .

TommyKnocker wrote: »

So now somebody who obvisiously lives close by the Roma family in Tallaght and has seen this news story from Greece puts 2 and 2 together and gets 5. If a Roma couple in Greece are under suspicion of child abduction and have had a pale skinned, blue eyed child removed from them, the this must mean that ALL Roma, every last one, world wide are child abducters :rolleyes:. I better report the local family as child abducters as they also have a pale skinned, blue eyed girl living with them. But let's not report it to the proper authorities (The Gardai or Child Protection Services). Let's report it to the FB page of a TV station for the attention of a journalist who has a penchant for sensationalism :rolleyes:

So appartenly for no other reason than the family were Roma and had a pale skinned, blue eyed child living with them, this report to the TV stations TV page was sent.

This is the very definition of Racial Profiling.

ok. But as I said we don't know the motivation of the person who contacted TV3. But given the compliantI think the gardai acted correctly . Look something like this is alweay going to be unpleasant and nobody will ever get it right. But they did the right thing in good faith - imo of course.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Let's not forget that there have been no reports of white Irish couples being reported for having children of another race living with them or because they have a child with differnt colouring to them living with them.

So concern citizen reports Roma family via FB to journalist who contacts Gardai.

Gardai also being aware of the Greece case (you would have to be living in a cave in some desolate, remote area not to be aware of it) rush to the house of the Roma family in Tallaght (having been in contact with the family previously and having no issues with the girl in question). They find the young girl in question sitting watching TV with her family. They perform a cursory 2 hour investigation and even though they are provided with official documentation, they are not satisified that the child is from the parents through birth, they invoke section 12 of the Child Protection Act and remove the child from the family home, causing distress and emotional tramua to the child and the family.

Section 12 allows for a child to be removed when there is concern for the immediate health and welfare of the child.

This child was found sitting with her family in their home watching TV. There were no reports of her being physically abused, malnourished or mistreated in any way. She was not found in a cage, locked in a shed out the back, under the stairs etc. .

The young girl was in school and none of the teachers apparentlly raised any concerns over her safety and well being. The parents of this young girl had a passport for her. As the child was born in Ireland I am assuming that is was an Irish Passport. So the application form was signed by a witness and at the local Garda station be the guard on duty and apparenly no questions were raised at this point in time either.

But this child was still removed from her home by Gardai.

WHY???? What was the immediate threat to the health and welfare of this child?

IMHO because the parents were Roma and on the news, in Greece, another Roma couple were under suspicion for child abduction. I believe the Gardai went to the house with their minds set that they were possibly dealing with child abduction.

This is also the very definition of Racial Profiling, this time by an institution of the state.

Fine but you are attacking the gardai for acting properly in good faith.
They had a complaint or suspicion raised with them and they investigated. the investigation lead to some open issues and they acted on it.
if they didn't they'd be lashed out of it - esp if the family did up sticks and leave.

Also this idea of gardai/HSE taking children from happy environments happens to irish families and there is no hoopla.
I know this cos a friend of mine had his kids taken for almost a year on the back of a baseless/false/incorrect allegation from a doctor to the HSE.
The HSE and gardai turned up at his door with an order and BOOM. Kids gone.
He was proven innocent - so innocent the HSE refunded his legal fees without issue - but he and his wife are currently taking legal action against various people.

No pavee point or densie charlton to fight his case.

the cases are different I'll admit but it shows that child are taken into custody from all sectors of society with immediate affect.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

TL;DR I think you are wrong in your comment

I am frequently wrong .
I did like your reply though cos it was a thought out piece unlike some posts of "you're a racist / End thread"

27-10-2013 02:17PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well when I'm at Dublin airport and about to board a plane I give every Middle Eastern looking passanger a really good looking over to see if I can detect any little tell tale sign of sweating or fidgeting or anxiety.
Were I to detect such signs I'd have no compunction in reporting it to security and letting them deal with it.
I'm sure I'd end up looking very silly but I'd gladly suffer that rather than have my remains floating around in the mid atlantic.
If that makes me a racist then so be it.
If, after twenty years without any middle eastern terrorist attacks I continued to do so then you would probably have a point.

And if (god forbid) the IRA starts messing around again and you decide to go off to London for a weekend, you'd be absolutely fine with being pulled out of the security line for extra searches, other passengers staring at you every time you spoke, grilled by airport staff and police about where you were going and why? You wouldn't mind being offloaded from a flight for having an Irish accent, which makes the English person next to you feel nervous and afraid?

Are you sure now?

TommyKnocker · 27-10-2013 02:17PM

zega wrote: »

So whats the craic with the girl in greece,did they rob her or what?

Doesn't seem so.

She is of Roma decent. She was born to a Roma couple working in Greece. Apparently the couple had to return to Bulgaria and did not have the finances to pay for the documentation required to bring the baby back with them.

So there are two trains of thought. Either a friend of the couple agreed to raise the child and the parents could reclaim her if/when they wanted.

-or-

The parents sold her to the couple in Greece who raised her as their own up until now.

Either way it appears that it is not a case of a Roma couple abduction a white european child ***and that it is possible now that all Roma are not actaully child abducters :rolleyes::rolleyes:

*** Just to clarify, this is sarcasm and not a view I hold or support

zega · 27-10-2013 02:25PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Doesn't seem so.

She is of Roma decent. She was born to a Roma couple working in Greece. Apparently the couple had to return to Bulgaria and did not have the finances to pay for the documentation required to bring the baby back with them.

So there are two trains of thought. Either a friend of the couple agreed to raise the child and the parents could reclaim her if/when they wanted.

-or-

The parents sold her to the couple in Greece who raised her as their own up until now.

Either way it appears that it is not a case of a Roma couple abduction a white european child ***and that it is possible now that all Roma are not actaully child abducters :rolleyes::rolleyes:

*** Just to clarify, this is sarcasm and not a view I hold or support

What a pair of arseholes leaving their child behind.

I'd say them roma lads up in tallaght will probably sue now,new gold teeth all round.

Annasopra · 27-10-2013 02:28PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

we don't know the motivation of the person who contacted TV3.

Really?

http://itonlyencouragesthem.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/romachilddublin/

cletus van damme · 27-10-2013 02:37PM

mango salsa wrote: »

Really?

http://itonlyencouragesthem.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/romachilddublin/

firstly , one line hardly describes their motivation.

Secondly, even if we accept that
Does the motivation of that person mean the allegation is automatically discounted.? I say not.

tayto lover · 27-10-2013 02:48PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Doesn't seem so.

She is of Roma decent. She was born to a Roma couple working in Greece. Apparently the couple had to return to Bulgaria and did not have the finances to pay for the documentation required to bring the baby back with them.

So there are two trains of thought. Either a friend of the couple agreed to raise the child and the parents could reclaim her if/when they wanted.

-or-

The parents sold her to the couple in Greece who raised her as their own up until now.

Either way it appears that it is not a case of a Roma couple abduction a white european child ***and that it is possible now that all Roma are not actaully child abducters :rolleyes::rolleyes:

*** Just to clarify, this is sarcasm and not a view I hold or support

There actually appears to be more to it than that --
1. The Greek police suspect that money was paid for the child.
2. The Bulgarian couple said they intended to return for the child but after 6+ years made no attempt.
3. The Greek couple didn't know the whereabouts of the Bulgarian couple.

That is only from the media though but it looks as though there was no communication between both parties since the child changed hands and that does not look good in supporting either couple's story in my opinion.

I don't know how the story came to light but if someone reported it then does that make them a racist or a concerned citizen?

Grayson · 27-10-2013 03:04PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

A fascist bigot might say, "Exterminate all Roma"
A social scientist might say, "Lets help all Roma to integrate"
A Pavee Point spokesperson might say, "Let's give all Roma bus passes so they can continue their nomadic lifestyle"
My point is; all sides of the argument use the collective noun Roma to illustrate who they are talking about. That of itself is not racism. It's merely the conventional use of language.
When Pavee point use it to push their agenda then it's perfectly acceptable of course.
When people who have issues with Roma, based on first hand evidence, use the collective noun then it automatically undergoes a translation by the PC brigade into racial profiling and God knows how many other racist motives.
I suspect that they have a special PC Google Translates button on their computer and use it to "seek out" malefactors.

It's not racial profiling to identify a group of people by their collective name.

Example: There will be lots of irish people in london for the football match.

That's using irish as a description to describe where the people who are going to be attending the football match are.

Example: the irish are drunk lazy terrorists.

Another example:
Lets give language lessons to emigrants such as the roma to help them integrate.

The Roma are all thieving lying bastards who should be shipped off to the gas chambers.

See the difference? If you don't I would suggest that you sign up for first class in primary school.

TommyKnocker · 27-10-2013 03:21PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

yes and no.

The gardai got a complaint about a specific family. The allegation was not a racial one but a specific one.
Nobody is privvy to the motivation of the person who made the compliant.
However (imagine) the compliant is racially based (we have no evidence but i'll go with you on this). Do it mean the complaint is incorrect? Should we discount it on the politics of the person making it?

Allegation not a racial one?

Here is the FB post that started the Tallaght incident off. You don't this this comes across as racist?

How many times have white Irish couples been reports for having a child of a different race or colouring living with them?

cletus van damme wrote: »

yes and no again. only point 4 was from the sunday world. the rest were in all the media this week.

It was only point 4 I was referring to

cletus van damme wrote: »

I don't disagree but when asked the parents didn't have answers. and this raised suspicions. I can tell you my kids names, bdays and hosiptals - I'm surprised they couldn't.
If the gardai's priority was child protection (which it should be) then all other stuff like racial niceties come second.
You may disagree with me - but imo racial harmony isn't the number one thing in the world , things like child protection supercede that .

On the contary, it was reported that the girls parents co-operated fully with the Gardai from the off. They apparently could not put their hands on the birth cert straight away. They provided the Gardai with verbal information on the day, date and the hospital where the child was born. They provided a passport which they had for the child. There was apparently some confusion because the child was referred to as her middle name and not her first name (Hardly uncommon, even outside of Roma culture. I have friends who go by their second name, their confirmation name or the Irish version of their name).

The birth cert was eventually produced, but I belive the mothers maiden name was used on it instead of her married name. Not sure why this is, but is it possible that they were not actually married at the time?

But put yourself in their shoes for a minute.

Firstly the Gardai arrive at your door out of the blue questioning if you are indeed parents to a child you gave birth to. English is not your first language and it appears that no translator was present.

The Gadai were apparently unhappy with the leagal documents provided, went with the nuclear option (imho) and invoked section 12 of the Child Protection act and removed the child from the house.

I ask IF this was a white Irish couple with a romaimian or chinese child would exactly the same option have been taken? I believe it would not.

cletus van damme wrote: »

ok. But as I said we don't know the motivation of the person who contacted TV3. But given the compliantI think the gardai acted correctly . Look something like this is alweay going to be unpleasant and nobody will ever get it right. But they did the right thing in good faith - imo of course.

I agree that the Gardai are duty bound to investigate complaints received, however I think the link to the FB post shows the motivation of the person who raised the alarm. It appears to be to be a knee jerk reaction to what was going on in Greece at the time along with a dislike on that persons part for Roma.

I further do not accept that "they did the right thing in good faith".

I believe that the Gardai who showed up at this couples house had the mind set that they were dealing with something dodgy and I believe the news stories about the Greece case palyed a part in this.

cletus van damme wrote: »

Fine but you are attacking the gardai for acting properly in good faith.
They had a complaint or suspicion raised with them and they investigated. the investigation lead to some open issues and they acted on it.
if they didn't they'd be lashed out of it - esp if the family did up sticks and leave.

But I do not believe the Gardai acted properly and in good faith.

They are about to remove a child from its home, parents and siblings. I would expect them to have investigated propperly with reagards to the information they received with regards to the day, date and hospital where the parents claimed the baby was born. This was obvisously not done as the information given by the parents was verified at a later time when checked properly.

Again I think they had pre judged and then apparently received further incorrect information that it was unlikely that Roma parents could possibly give birth to a pale skinned, blonde, blue eyed child. A simple Google would reveal that this is not only possible, but not that uncommon either.

cletus van damme wrote: »

Also this idea of gardai/HSE taking children from happy environments happens to irish families and there is no hoopla.
I know this cos a friend of mine had his kids taken for almost a year on the back of a baseless/false/incorrect allegation from a doctor to the HSE.
The HSE and gardai turned up at his door with an order and BOOM. Kids gone.
He was proven innocent - so innocent the HSE refunded his legal fees without issue - but he and his wife are currently taking legal action against various people.

I don't dispute that section 12 of the CPA is implemented multiple times in a year and I am not surprised that in some cases it turns out to be incorect. I would have exactly the same feelings for any parent who has to go through this, regardless of the ethnicity.

cletus van damme wrote: »

No pavee point or densie charlton to fight his case.

Pavee Point deal with Travler and Roma issues and Denise charlton is head of the immigration council so I don't see why either of these would involve themselves in your friends issue unless they are members of the Traveling or Roma communities or immigrnats. But in your friends case I would definately be contacting the childrens ombudsman.

cletus van damme wrote: »

the cases are different I'll admit but it shows that child are taken into custody from all sectors of society with immediate affect.

Yes, unless the Doctor raised a complaint on the grounds that your friends child(ren) did not look like the parents and somebody else in another country was under suspicion for child abduction, having been found with children with the same skin, hair,eye colouring, then the cases are most definately different.

But again, I don't dispute that section 12 of the CPA is implemented multiple times in a year and I am not surprised that in some cases it turns out to be incorect. I would have exactly the same feelings for any parent who has to go through this, regardless of the ethnicity.

cletus van damme wrote: »

I am frequently wrong .
I did like your reply though cos it was a thought out piece unlike some posts of "you're a racist / End thread"

Thanks

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 03:58PM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

And if (god forbid) the IRA starts messing around again and you decide to go off to London for a weekend, you'd be absolutely fine with being pulled out of the security line for extra searches, other passengers staring at you every time you spoke, grilled by airport staff and police about where you were going and why? You wouldn't mind being offloaded from a flight for having an Irish accent, which makes the English person next to you feel nervous and afraid?

Are you sure now?

I travelled to and from the UK during the so called troubles and was indeed subjected to to extra security checks.
Never minded in the least.
I had nothing to hide and no axes to grind so why would I have a problem with
measures which were designed to prevent the spread of terrorism?

27-10-2013 04:03PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I travelled to and from the UK during the so called troubles and was indeed subjected to to extra security checks.
Never minded in the least.
I had nothing to hide and no axes to grind so why would I have a problem with
measures which were designed to prevent the spread of terrorism?

And (as I asked), if one Irish person were found to have a child who wasn't theirs, you wouldn't have a problem with the police taking away your kid who has a different hair colour overnight just to 'check'?

petrolcan · 27-10-2013 04:04PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well when I'm at Dublin airport and about to board a plane I give every Middle Eastern looking passanger a really good looking over to see if I can detect any little tell tale sign of sweating or fidgeting or anxiety.
Were I to detect such signs I'd have no compunction in reporting it to security and letting them deal with it.
I'm sure I'd end up looking very silly but I'd gladly suffer that rather than have my remains floating around in the mid atlantic.
If that makes me a racist then so be it.
If, after twenty years without any middle eastern terrorist attacks I continued to do so then you would probably have a point.

You're trolling, right?

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 04:08PM

Grayson wrote: »

It's not racial profiling to identify a group of people by their collective name.

Example: There will be lots of irish people in london for the football match.

That's using irish as a description to describe where the people who are going to be attending the football match are.

Example: the irish are drunk lazy terrorists.

Another example:
Lets give language lessons to emigrants such as the roma to help them integrate.

The Roma are all thieving lying bastards who should be shipped off to the gas chambers.

See the difference? If you don't I would suggest that you sign up for first class in primary school.

I suppose I should report you for ad hominem abuse but you are hardly worth the bother

Curly Judge · 27-10-2013 04:49PM

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

And (as I asked), if one Irish person were found to have a child who wasn't theirs, you wouldn't have a problem with the police taking away your kid who has a different hair colour overnight just to 'check'?

Don't be ridiculous!
Of course I'd have objections. Up to and including physical resistance.
But if my wife had been pulling a scam with the "social" and got in a bit of a tizzy because she couldn't produce the correct documents to prove that the child was hers, then my objections might have tobe less vociferous.
AND... if she had said that our child had been born in the local maternity hospital and the hospital couldn't find any records because she had given the wrong name then I'd be on really dodgy ground. Wouldn't I?
Anyway this business about the Garda targeting minorities is rubbish.
Every day they, and their sidekicks the RSA, impound cars, vans, trailers and even a combine harvester from hard working members of the general public. When was the last time you heard of a travellers vehicle being impounded?
The guards and the courts let them away with blue mayhem, either because they are physically [or politically] afraid of them.
If members of the settled community behaved in the way some members of the minority community carry on Mountjoy would be overflowing down to the lower end of The NCR.

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

Comments

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1