Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1

Hootanany · 26-10-2013 08:11AM

Grayson wrote: »

I don't know why either. You've given no indication that the Roma are dangerous. Must be racism. Unless they've done something that's actually dangerous.

Edit: that's actually a bit harsh. people are notoriously bad at judging danger. That's why terrorism gets more money than heart disease or cancer in the US. People are probably far worse at judging danger when their children are involved. It's the reason people are terrified of paedophiles in the neighbourhood that are snatching children when the sample fact is that you as a parent are statistically more of a danger as are all your friends and relatives.

Still, you've given no indication that the roma are dangerous. The only reason for this bad feeling is that they're roma. That's based on some underlying prejudice.

Can you please tell me what do the Roma community actually contribute to our society?

CaraMay · 26-10-2013 08:21AM

They obviously don't live next door to you Grayson

I would find bunches if men standing around looking into our garden as dangerous no matter what nationality

None of them work and I do have prejudice against social welfare tourism but can deal with that (same on other side as well) but thee men freak me out and I'm even scared in the hous alone

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 26-10-2013 08:48AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Can you please tell me what do the Roma community actually contribute to our society?

Cultural diversity.
Happy now?

Hootanany · 26-10-2013 09:24AM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Cultural diversity.
Happy now?

HUH? expand

Grayson · 26-10-2013 09:25AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Can you please tell me what do the Roma community actually contribute to our society?

I take it you hate/distrust poor people then? the disabled or the elderly too? Contribution to society is not a suitable benchmark for deciding how valuable someone is or if they're trustworthy.

CaraMay wrote: »

They obviously don't live next door to you Grayson

I would find bunches if men standing around looking into our garden as dangerous no matter what nationality

None of them work and I do have prejudice against social welfare tourism but can deal with that (same on other side as well) but thee men freak me out and I'm even scared in the hous alone

No they don't live next door to me. I have three girls from down the country living next door to me. They have their friends over at least three nights a week and their friends, especially the lads, scream and shout all night long. It's a regular occurrence to be woken up at 3am by them screaming outside my front window in their bogger accents as they arrive home from the pub. Fecking students.

Tell me, do they line up outside your garden wall and just stare in all day? Do they invite friends over when you add a new water feature or garden gnome and then stand and point at it like morons? is your garden actually that interesting?
Or when they're outside having a cigarette do they just stand around looking at the sky, the walls, the ground, each other, and sometimes your garden? When someone walks outside and it grabs their attention do they just look over in that direction for a second and get back to what they're doing, just like everyone else on the planet would?

Have they ever actually done anything to harm you or your family? Have they ever made threats? You're paranoid. You're reading innocent gestures as threatening. And it's a paranoia based on prejudice.

Hootanany · 26-10-2013 09:34AM

I did not state or HATe at all why would you bring that up?

RustyNut · 26-10-2013 09:39AM

tayto lover wrote: »

only one was illegally sold to that family

Illegaly sold or unoficially adopted ?

Grayson · 26-10-2013 10:34AM

Hootanany wrote: »

I did not state or HATe at all why would you bring that up?

Ok, maybe hate is too strong a word. What's your feeling towards Roma. I posted a response where I stated that I understood why someone gets scared but that it was wrong and you asked what they contribute. How do you feel about them?

BTW, It's just plain wrong to judge a person based on what they contribute.

Remember the Roma were the second largest group affected by the holocaust. Hitler made a determined effort to exterminate them.
But whereas the rumours of jewish people abducting and killing children for their blood sacrafice died out after the holocaust, the rumours of Roma kidnapping children is still taken at face value.

I can't imagine someone complaining that a group of jewish men is weird and makes them fear for their childs safety. We would call the fcuking crazy if they did that but it's almost acceptable to say it about Roma.

Chinasea · 26-10-2013 10:54AM

CaraMay wrote: »

The house next to us is filled with a Roma family thanks to the council. It's hard to know how many of them are in the and I think different families move in and out every few weeks. I am and have been scared of letting my child out in the back garden since they moved in and I don't care admitting that. I hate feeling like this but my gut, since way before any if this started, is that he is not safe out there even though it's enclosed. Dunno why

Look at your choices of wording here. "filled" with Roma, to me this infers some sort of plague or vermin to which you casually allude.

Reading further into your questionable post, seems to me that absolutely NOTHING of the shameful recent afflictions on the 2 families in Ireland have made you open your mind or reflect on your outright biased views. I'd be afraid for the universe if I lived beside you.

Phoebas · 26-10-2013 11:08AM

tayto lover wrote: »

If one child is suspected of not being a member of the family and this is the only one there are doubts about then why would they take the rest? As far as I am aware there were more children in the Greek case but only one was illegally sold to that family and only one was removed.
Again we are only going on what was printed in the media. We don't know and should keep our powder dry.

We don't know that that was the case at all. Perhaps an illegal adoption.

I know of a few cases of people in Ireland who have adopted from Russia or Romania and who tell of having to pay out a lot of money to 'grease the wheels' of the adoption process.
We would never, of course, accuse the Irish parents of buying the child - the narrative is more like they are rescuing the child from a bad situation.

Phoebas · 26-10-2013 11:13AM

CaraMay wrote: »

The house next to us is filled with a Roma family thanks to the council. It's hard to know how many of them are in the and I think different families move in and out every few weeks. I am and have been scared of letting my child out in the back garden since they moved in and I don't care admitting that. I hate feeling like this but my gut, since way before any if this started, is that he is not safe out there even though it's enclosed. Dunno why

Fear of the unknown is reasonable enough. I guess the thing to do is to introduce yourself to your new neighbours, get to know them a little bit as individuals rather than a group and that might allay your concerns.

Curly Judge · 26-10-2013 12:23PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Look at your choices of wording here. "filled" with Roma, to me this infers some sort of plague or vermin to which you casually allude.

Reading further into your questionable post, seems to me that absolutely NOTHING of the shameful recent afflictions on the 2 families in Ireland have made you open your mind or reflect on your outright biased views. I'd be afraid for the universe if I lived beside you.

What a superior, belittling,holier than thou, piece of nonsense.
I think I'd set fire to myself if I had to live beside you.

tayto lover · 26-10-2013 12:31PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So there are organ harvesters in Ireland now ... I think not stop scaremongering. Next you will say don't go out drinking as you may wakeup in a bath of ice with a note saying call an ambulance ... this had nothing to do with what happened here. This is blatant scaremongering and media hype. Did Rte get there information from the Daily mail on this ?

I don't know as I never even heard of this practice until yesterday morning on RTE radio. I was shocked to hear of it. I am genuinely not scaremongering at all and it was RTE and Interpol who had the discussion so perhaps you could ask them. I mentioned the fact that it was on and that people who are suffering from poverty are being exploited by the rich, as per usual, and that we don't know whats going on behind the scenes or what people in authority suspected in any case where a child was actually kidnapped. Very scary stuff happening.I was so annoyed at that interview that I googled to find out about it and luckily there was only one case in Britain that I could find --
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10390183/Girl-smuggled-into-Britain-to-have-her-organs-harvested.html

My sympathies are always with the Roma family and their child by the way in this case and I will await the inquiry results before casting any stones at anyone.

tayto lover · 26-10-2013 12:33PM

Phoebas wrote: »

We don't know that that was the case at all. Perhaps an illegal adoption.

I know of a few cases of people in Ireland who have adopted from Russia or Romania and who tell of having to pay out a lot of money to 'grease the wheels' of the adoption process.
We would never, of course, accuse the Irish parents of buying the child - the narrative is more like they are rescuing the child from a bad situation.

Hopefully that is the case Pheobas. Not a nice world we live in.

Grayson · 26-10-2013 12:35PM

I don't know if this has been posted so I'm going to put it here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24673804

DNA tests have confirmed a Bulgarian Roma couple as the biological parents of mystery child Maria, found in Greece last week, Bulgarian officials say.

They identified the couple as Sasha Ruseva and Atanas Rusev.

The officials are investigating whether the mother had sold the child - a claim she has denied.

Maria was found at a Roma camp in central Greece. Police noticed the lack of resemblance between the blonde girl and the adults she was staying with.

The couple, Christos Salis and Eleftheria Dimopoulou, have since been charged with child abduction. They have insisted the girl was given to them legitimately...........

............The child's parents - Sasha Ruseva and Atanas Rusev - and their eight children, had been filmed earlier by Bulgarian television at their home in the Roma district of the central town of Nikolaevo.

Ms Ruseva, holding a child with red hair, told reporters that she and her husband had been working in the Greek city of Larisa four years ago when she gave birth to a girl.

The girl was seven months old when they had to return to Bulgaria, and she said she could not afford to take the child with her.

She said she was talking to a woman she worked with who told her: "Give me this child, I will take care of it. You can come and take it back any time you want.

"But I had other children to take care of and I couldn't go... I have never got any money for it."

Sasha Ruseva, named by Bulgarian TV, said: "This woman said 'I'll take care of this child, give it to me'"

Bulgarian officials said that during questioning, Ms Ruseva said she had recognised Christos Salis and Eleftheria Dimopoulou as the people she had left her child with.

Prosecutors have pressed preliminary charges against Ms Ruseva for "deliberately selling a child while residing out of the country".

In Greece, a lawyer representing the couple in the Roma camp near Farsala said on Friday they planned to seek legal custody of Maria.

"Provided what we said is borne out, that it was not an abduction, then logically they will be released from prison and they will be able to enter a proper [adoption] process," Costas Katsavos was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.

"They truly and ardently want her back," he added.

Weird. They are going to charge them with abduction. They're thinking of charging the mother with selling. How can it be both? Everything conflicts with everything else. Looks like the biggest crime was being Romany.

And they're ignoring the whole point that the police took a child that they said was kidnapped because they had blonde hair. Whereas it turns out that although the couple she was with were not her natural parents, her natural parents were Romany anyway. So their entire basis for taking the child was unfounded, they were just freakilly lucky that the girl with blonde hair happened to have been born to different parents.

tayto lover · 26-10-2013 12:39PM

Grayson wrote: »

I don't know if this has been posted so I'm going to put it here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24673804

Weird. They are going to charge them with abduction. They're thinking of charging the mother with selling. How can it be both? Everything conflicts with everything else. Looks like the biggest crime was being Romany.

And they're ignoring the whole point that the police took a child that they said was kidnapped because they had blonde hair. Whereas it turns out that although the couple she was with were not her natural parents, her natural parents were Romany anyway. So their entire basis for taking the child was unfounded, they were just freakilly lucky that the girl with blonde hair happened to have been born to different parents.

What is odd too is that the real parents never went back to get their daughter. How is that child going to deal with the situation now even if she is returned? Very traumatic stuff happening.

BlaasForRafa · 26-10-2013 12:42PM

Grayson wrote: »

So their entire basis for taking the child was unfounded, they were just freakilly lucky that the girl with blonde hair happened to have been born to different parents.

Wrong, they weren't freakishly lucky at all. Almost all roma have black hair and brown eyes but sometimes there are rare exceptions, this can happen with black people too, there are a small number of albino black people in many african countries.

As to the Roma and their "culture", I came across this story about a family of Roma on trial for a massive amount of robberies whose defence is that thieving and selling child brides is part of their culture so they should be let off because their practicing their traditions.

Grayson · 26-10-2013 12:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What is odd too is that the real parents never went back to get their daughter. How is that child going to deal with the situation now even if she is returned? Very traumatic stuff happening.

It doesn't always happen. I know two women, one very old and one in their twenties who put their children up for adoption. the younger one gets to visit twice a year but the child doesn't know who she is. She also gets photo's etc sent from the family. She'll never ask for the child, who's probably about 5-6, back. He's with a loving family and she knows he's cared for. She also knows it'd hurt the child to be taken from his parents. This is despite the fact that I've been with her when she's been crying about how it still felt so wrong to do it, but honestly she had very, very few options.

The other has always said that if ever her son returned there would be a welcome. She'd just open the door and give him a hug. But she's not going to go searching for him and possibly ruin his life. He might not even know he's adopted.

I'd imagine every case is different and it's hard to try and figure out why anyone does something in particular.

But yeah, the kid is going to be messed up. It's hard enough to find out your mommy and daddy aren't your parents. But to find out whilst being whisked away by police? That's nasty.

Phoebas · 26-10-2013 12:56PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

As to the Roma and their "culture", I came across this story about a family of Roma on trial for a massive amount of robberies whose defence is that thieving and selling child brides is part of their culture so they should be let off because their practicing their traditions.

A defence that wasn't accepted by the judge, wouldn't be accepted by any reasonable person but seems to be taken at face value by you.

Grayson · 26-10-2013 12:58PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Wrong, they weren't freakishly lucky at all. Almost all roma have black hair and brown eyes but sometimes there are rare exceptions, this can happen with black people too, there are a small number of albino black people in many african countries.

As to the Roma and their "culture", I came across this story about a family of Roma on trial for a massive amount of robberies whose defence is that thieving and selling child brides is part of their culture so they should be let off because their practicing their traditions.

So, in the last week 3 separate roma children were taken from their families. the reason was they couldn't be roma since they had blonde hair. All three turned out to be roma. Statistics aren't on your side. You're 0 for 3.
Do you have anything, any stats any stories anything at all, to back up how many blonde roma are actually abducted from non roma families? Anything at all to suggest that blonde children who are with roma parents are actually abducted and should be taken by social services?

There's nothing in that story you linked to suggest that Roma kidnap children. It's a story about one family.

It does however have this in it

Livia Jaroka, a Hungarian anthropologist who has studied the Roma and is the only Roma member of the European Parliament, maintains that decades of discrimination have resulted in endemic unemployment, extreme poverty, low education levels, segregated housing, human trafficking, substance abuse and high mortality rates. She argues that assimilation into Western European culture does not require abandoning Roma traditions as much as overcoming age-old stereotypes and investing in education, jobs and health care.

“The cultural explanation for Roma criminality is nonsense,” she said in an interview. “It is about economics.”

And that part i agree with. Roma are discriminated against. And that will result in them being marginalised and living on the fringes of society.

Oranage2 · 26-10-2013 01:08PM

Grayson wrote: »

So, in the last week 3 separate roma children were taken from their families. the reason was they couldn't be roma since they had blonde hair. All three turned out to be roma. Statistics aren't on your side. You're 0 for 3.
Do you have anything, any stats any stories anything at all, to back up how many blonde roma are actually abducted from non roma families? Anything at all to suggest that blonde children who are with roma parents are actually abducted and should be taken by social services?

There's nothing in that story you linked to suggest that Roma kidnap children. It's a story about one family.

It does however have this in it

And that part i agree with. Roma are discriminated against. And that will result in them being marginalised and living on the fringes of society.

Must be that and it's all in our imagination and not the fact that every time you a see Roma they're either begging or stealing

Horrid Henry · 26-10-2013 01:12PM

Why are we (i.e. society) being criticised for holding views that we've arrived at based on our life experiences?

I'm sorry, but if I saw two dark skinned dark haired dark eyed Roma adults with a pale blonde haired blue eyed child, I'd ring the cops.

This is PC madness taken to a whole new level.

Phoebas · 26-10-2013 01:16PM

Horrid Henry wrote: »

Why are we (i.e. society) being criticised for holding views that we've arrived at based on our life experiences?

I'm sorry, but if I saw two dark skinned dark haired dark eyed Roma adults with a pale blonde haired blue eyed child, I'd ring the cops.

This is PC madness taken to a whole new level.

Even after all you've learned over the last few days, you'd still call the cops if you saw Roma adults with a blond kid!!!!

Its ingrained deeply in you.

Horrid Henry · 26-10-2013 01:19PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Even after all you've learned over the last few days, you'd still call the cops if you saw Roma adults with a blond kid!!!!

Its ingrained deeply in you.

I absolutely would and I'm not ashamed of my opinion.

Curly Judge · 26-10-2013 01:23PM

Grayson wrote: »

So, in the last week 3 separate roma children were taken from their families. the reason was they couldn't be roma since they had blonde hair. All three turned out to be roma. Statistics aren't on your side. You're 0 for 3.
Do you have anything, any stats any stories anything at all, to back up how many blonde roma are actually abducted from non roma families? Anything at all to suggest that blonde children who are with roma parents are actually abducted and should be taken by social services?

There's nothing in that story you linked to suggest that Roma kidnap children. It's a story about one family.

It does however have this in it

And that part i agree with. Roma are discriminated against. And that will result in them being marginalised and living on the fringes of society.

I think the result in Greece would make it 1 out of 3.
But then again you probably find it okay for certain sections of society to wander about the continent picking up the odd child here and dropping the odd one off there on an ad-hoc basis.
The cheek of the authorities for interfering in this quaint piece of laissez faire cultural expression.

Grayson · 26-10-2013 01:30PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

Must be that and it's all in our imagination and not the fact that every time you a see Roma they're either begging or stealing

Did i say there wasn't crime in Roma communities? I did say that I agreed with a quote i put up saying that people who are marganilised will turn to crime to support themselves.

And how exactly does that imply that they steal children or that there should be even the vaguest implication that a blonde child was kidnapped.

Grayson · 26-10-2013 01:37PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I think the result in Greece would make it 1 out of 3.
But then again you probably find it okay for certain sections of society to wander about the continent picking up the odd child here and dropping the odd one off there on an ad-hoc basis.
The cheek of the authorities for interfering in this quaint piece of laissez faire cultural expression.

The greek result doesn't really count as a win. They found a girl who they said couldn't be roma but turned out to be roma. Ok, the couple weren't her biological parents but it turns out to be a nearly true result based on false assumptions. It's like saying the sun will come up tomorrow because this coin came up heads. Even though the sun did come up, it didn't make the original statement true.
The reason i say nearly true is because the police said the couple abducted her. That is turning out to be false.

And i do think adoption etc should be done above board, but if the legality was the only wrong doing here there wasn't actually anything morally wrong done. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that the child was mistreated or wasn't in a loving family.

Oranage2 · 26-10-2013 01:45PM

Grayson wrote: »

Did i say there wasn't crime in Roma communities? I did say that I agreed with a quote i put up saying that people who are marganilised will turn to crime to support themselves.

And how exactly does that imply that they steal children or that there should be even the vaguest implication that a blonde child was kidnapped.

Nonsense, do you actually know anything about Roma gypsies and their culture?

The sell their own children to become wives , girls as young as 12 and 13, I would absolutely not trust a child I know around them.

Curly Judge · 26-10-2013 01:53PM

Grayson wrote: »

The greek result doesn't really count as a win. They found a girl who they said couldn't be roma but turned out to be roma. Ok, the couple weren't her biological parents but it turns out to be a nearly true result based on false assumptions. It's like saying the sun will come up tomorrow because this coin came up heads. Even though the sun did come up, it didn't make the original statement true.
The reason i say nearly true is because the police said the couple abducted her. That is turning out to be false.

And i do think adoption etc should be done above board, but if the legality was the only wrong doing here there wasn't actually anything morally wrong done. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that the child was mistreated or wasn't in a loving family.

Fair enough!
But....
in your opinion would the world be a better place if this practice was allowed to carry on or if the police were allowed to make what amounted to an educated guess [in your parlance - perhaps? - racial profiling]
On a technical point: is an unlawful adoption not an abduction?

Grayson · 26-10-2013 02:02PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

On a technical point: is an unlawful adoption not an abduction?

maybe it is legally in some jusistiction but not morally or in the standard use of the english language.

Think of it like a car (not that children are cars). If I give you mine and we fail to register the transfer, that's a crime but it doesn't mean you stole it.

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1