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Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

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  • 23-10-2013 12:55am
    #1
    Timistry
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

    Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work


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    #2
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Aye. Watch the queues going to Newry now!


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    #3
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Minimum pricing on alcohol won't directly effect the price of a drink in the pub,it shouldn't effect craft beers,premium beers or an average bottle of wine...
    It should help stop bellow cost selling/ discounting and stupidly cheap special offers on beer that the supermarkets started(and would love to stop) and the off licenses were forced to copy... Some one always pays for below cost selling (not that the government would care if it wasn't for the anti-social behaviour issue)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #4
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    shedweller wrote: »
    Aye. Watch the queues going to Newry now!

    There was an ad for Asda during Downton Abbey on Sunday night. Famous Grouse for 11 pounds. 11GBP is about 13EUR, however Grouse is about 20 euro in most major Irish chains.

    I can definitely see beer runs to Newry in my future.


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    #5
    Saruman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Minimum pricing on alcohol won't directly effect the price of a drink in the pub,it shouldn't effect craft beers,premium beers or an average bottle of wine...
    It should help stop bellow cost selling/ discounting and stupidly cheap special offers on beer that the supermarkets started(and would love to stop) and the off licenses were forced to copy... Some one always pays for below cost selling (not that the government would care if it wasn't for the anti-social behaviour issue)

    We already had this and some muppets took it away. :rolleyes:


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    #6
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,327 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Where does the additional money raised go - to the brewer/distiller, the retailer or the government?

    Michael Noonan mentioned a couple of weeks ago that no one complained when they increased wine by €1 a bottle in last year's budget. Another tax by another name me thinks.

    My €4 wine in Aldi, now €5 and heading for €7. F@ck the lot of them! :(


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    #7
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Where does the additional money raised go - to the brewer/distiller, the retailer or the government?

    Michael Noonan mentioned a couple of weeks ago that no one complained when they increased wine by €1 a bottle in last year's budget. Another tax by another name me thinks.

    My €4 wine in Aldi, now €5 and heading for €7. F@ck the lot of them! :(
    You can make your own wine from wild berries, maybe the next step.
    So Noonan thinks that if no one complains about tax increases it means you can add more tax :mad:


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    #8
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,327 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    You can make your own wine from wild berries, maybe the next step.
    So Noonan thinks that if no one complains about tax increases it means you can add more tax :mad:

    Or borrow a van, head across the channel and buy some decent French vino for €2.00


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    #9
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Where does the additional money raised go - to the brewer/distiller, the retailer or the government?
    All three, I'd say. The producer knows the retailer has to sell at a minimum price so might raise the wholesale price to get a cut of it; the retailer is the one setting the price, so obviously they'll take a cut; and higher price means extra VAT so the government's take will be higher, though the government claims it's doing it to reduce sales, and therefore VAT.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #10
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Where does the additional money raised go - to the brewer/distiller, the retailer or the government?

    Michael Noonan mentioned a couple of weeks ago that no one complained when they increased wine by €1 a bottle in last year's budget. Another tax by another name me thinks.

    My €4 wine in Aldi, now €5 and heading for €7. F@ck the lot of them! :(

    I've not heard anything of the money being ring-fenced, which basically means it will get swallowed by the black pit that is the expenses. It will go to pay for medical cards for seniors who are well able to pay for it themselves.


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    #11
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    You can make your own wine from wild berries, maybe the next step.
    So Noonan thinks that if no one complains about tax increases it means you can add more tax :mad:

    Making your own wine is a pain in the ass. My sister is a brewer and she enjoys the process, but if you are mainly interested in the result, its a pain in the ass. Moreso when a batch goes wrong and you are left with 24 bottles of undrinkable pee. And tbh, you shouldnt have to resort to such measures.

    You can buy from french vinyards and have them delivered to Ireland or as another poster suggests borrow a van and stock up your self. I made a trip over a few months back and it was very straight forward, and quite a pleasant couple of days. Tell the missus you are bringing her on a mini-break to France. Word of advice: avoid Paris. If you think Ireland is bad for sign-age try navigating around Paris.


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    #12
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Markcheese wrote: »
    It should help stop bellow cost selling/ discounting and stupidly cheap special offers on beer that the supermarkets started(and would love to stop) and the off licenses were forced to copy.
    Have you seen any evidence of below cost selling that you can link to? I have asked this many times in many threads and got nothing.

    In the UK a year or so ago they investigated the impact of a ban on below cost selling. Turned out only 3-4 non mainstream products were being sold below cost. They would have a similar market to ours. They scrapped the idea and of course the publicans said nothing.

    What you have is shouting from vitners that below cost selling goes on, but they never show evidence. Some idiot publicans are paying stupid amounts for beer at wholesale and so presume the supermarkets must be selling below cost since they pay more. This is not particular to publicans, I know a few guys in certain trades who stupidly believe the wholesale cost is ALWAYS less than retail could ever be.

    Some publicans post here, in many threads I have pointed out that my local centra often has 20 heineken for €15, and that a centra is not a place people do a full shop in, so very unlikely to be employing a below cost marketing strategy. I see most people carting out beer with nothing else. No publicans or people in the trade ever respond to this for course.

    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Where does the additional money raised go - to the brewer/distiller, the retailer or the government?(
    There is no talk of the government getting it. It will be an odd situation. As BeerNut said it could be wholesalers jacking up prices.

    It is weird as it might just phase out cheapo beers. If everything stayed the same it would be like going into an offie for 4 cans and having a tenner and them having no change and so being forced to spend it, so instead of going to get 4 cheap €1 cans most would be more inclined to go for premium bottles at €2.50. (well most might get 10 cans but you get my point). In this way it should be very good for craft beers.

    A min price on chocolate bars would see people turning to lindt and butlers bars instead of cheapo ones.


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    #13
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Rubadub wrote:
    Have you seen any evidence of below cost selling that you can link to? I have asked this many times in many threads and got nothing.

    Yeah same here. In the AH thread there was a lot of talk of "Cheap alcohol". Where is this legendary cheap alcohol sold? Why can I never find any.

    When i was living in the Czech Republic, there was a shop next to me called "Kvalitni Pivni" or quality drinks. It was basically a booze boutique. The place to go for single malts and cognac. A 700ml bottle of Jameson was 309CZK which is 12 euros. The same bottle costs about 27 in an Irish offie and on a good day 22 in Tesco.


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    #14
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,327 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Just been down the offie and checked with the guy behind the counter. The majority of the extra money added to the price of a bottle of wine will go to the retailer and the govt. will get the extra VAT as well.


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    #15
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    If this had come in when I was 18 I would have been devastated :pac:

    The cynic in me would assume this measure is to appease the vintners/more revenue from VAT.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #16
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    The cynic in me would assume this measure is to appease the vintners/more revenue from VAT.
    It also should keep the off licence owners happy enough. They might see a drop in sales numbers but will probably get more profit overall. This is why they have probably been quiet enough. Its a stupid situation to be having the huge extra revenues going into peoples pockets like this.

    Imagine all the other head shops who sell other legal recreational drugs were told they must sell party pills at €20 a pop to get people to cut down a bit, and the owners just pocket the extra profits.

    I wonder what they will do to compete with other off licences, might have free snacks or something, or some loyalty card scheme if there are loopholes left in it.


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    #17
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    syklops wrote: »
    Where is this legendary cheap alcohol sold? Why can I never find any.

    Off licence alcohol is cheaper now than it was twenty years ago. Actually cheaper in terms of money - if you were to take inflation into account, it would be waaaaay cheaper than 20 years ago.

    On your Czech story: what is the minimum wage there compared to here?
    edit: I can answer that the min wage here is approx 4.3 times the Czech Rep. min wage.


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    #18
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    the beer revolu wrote: »
    Off licence alcohol is cheaper now than it was twenty years ago.
    True, cheapest cans were £1, €1.27. In another thread someone was saying the duty on beer has not really gone up since 1994.

    BUT the fact is we still have one of the highest excise duty rates here. So instead of saying its much cheaper now, you could turn it around and say we were being totally screwed 20 years ago.

    Some heineken drinkers I know think its amazing that they can get bottles for 75cent which were typically £1.19 or €1.50 20 years ago, when instead they should be amazed at how they were being totally raped by heineken.

    People do not appreciate that drink in offies has gone down in price, and so keep thinking the pubs are screwing you. Some are of course, and some make zero effort to source a good price and just pass on what they consider reasonable margins.

    The guinness index shows the ratio of the price of a pint to the avg industrial wage
    http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/guinnessindex.htm


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    #19
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    the beer revolu wrote: »
    Off licence alcohol is cheaper now than it was twenty years ago. Actually cheaper in terms of money - if you were to take inflation into account, it would be waaaaay cheaper than 20 years ago.

    On your Czech story: what is the minimum wage there compared to here?
    edit: I can answer that the min wage here is approx 4.3 times the Czech Rep. min wage.

    Yes the cost of things are cheaper in the Czech republic, a beer in a pub is about a euro. But I used Jameson for the example because it is something that is made and bottled here in Ireland. That same bottle has to be loaded into trucks and driven 1000 miles away but is ~14 euros cheaper over there? Madness Joe.


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    #20
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,093 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The reason Irish whiskey is dearer here than 1000km away is mainly due to our excise duty.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

    It's 42.57 per litre of alcohol in the spirits.

    I'm not sure is that pre or post Budget 2014.

    That means 17.03 per litre of 40% spirit.

    Or 11.92 per 70cl bottle.


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    #21
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,093 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    rubadub wrote: »
    True, cheapest cans were £1, €1.27. In another thread someone was saying the duty on beer has not really gone up since 1994.


    Revenue Excise report:

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2011/excise.pdf

    Beer, per hectolitre, per percent alcohol:

    2008 = 19.87
    2009 = 19.87
    2010 = 15.71
    2011 = 15.71


    Yes, true, beer excise duty was flat for many years.

    2001 to 2009 = 47 cent per pint
    2010-2011 = 37 cent per pint


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    #22
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    The reason Irish whiskey is dearer here than 1000km away is mainly due to our excise duty.


    I don't know what to say.


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    #23
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Of course, as many said already, this is all about appeasing the vintners and getting revenue up. Like ALL this dodgy healthocracy we have been seeing, most of the alcohol is bad for your health stuff is grounded on poor research and spurious correlations as is the tea, sugar, coffee, etc.

    ALL is designed as an excuse to increase the price and thus revenue. With alcohol, the prices in supermarkets is a serious threat to pubs whose price has to be larger because of insurance on premises, etc. Cynical laws that all do damage to business. I'm glad at least the dropping alcohol sponsorship for sports (and music events and other festivals) was dropped.


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    #24
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    syklops wrote: »
    Yes the cost of things are cheaper in the Czech republic, a beer in a pub is about a euro. But I used Jameson for the example because it is something that is made and bottled here in Ireland. That same bottle has to be loaded into trucks and driven 1000 miles away but is ~14 euros cheaper over there? Madness Joe.

    Yes, I've been to the Czech Republic and found that the beer is not only a lot cheaper but a lot nicer too. While I never drank or looked for Irish drinks like Jameson there (I prefer to sample Czech drinks), it is not hard to believe what you said. Typical.


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    #25
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I cant help but think this is the VFI lobby group setting up for the entrance of Wetherspoons to the Irish market. They have recently bought / made some enquiries into several premises in Dublin. Id imagine that has put the sh*ts up the multi pub chain owners in the capital. Many of whom are former or know former or current TDs. Fingers in the pie so to speak. I can see this supposed ban been extended into pub premises also if that is not already the case.
    They will fight wetherspoons tooth and nail. Bloody cartel the VFI are an utter disgrace the money they can make off soft drinks and cordial with their pretence of providing a service. Tough enough to find a well run establishment as it is.

    which has everything to do with this thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057028788


    The VFI have come out today hailing this decision and giving the government plaudits opening it will be implemented as soon as possible by passing any studies or commitees.


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    #26
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    It won't affect Wetherspoon, or any other pubs. The VFI and NOffLA like it because it's an attack on supermarkets, whom they perceive as their enemy.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #27
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    BeerNut wrote: »
    It won't affect Wetherspoon, or any other pubs. The VFI and NOffLA like it because it's an attack on supermarkets, whom they perceive as their enemy.

    As i said is this a preliminary shot across the bow with some future lobbying preventing wetherspoon style pubs opening?

    Wouldnt really put it past them


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    #28
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    listermint wrote: »
    is this a preliminary shot across the bow with some future lobbying preventing wetherspoon style pubs opening?
    No, it isn't. It was being planned long before Wetherspoon announced they would be opening in Ireland, and this has no effect on any pubs.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #29
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Great idea, only piss will be affected.


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    #30
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Technocentral wrote: »
    Great idea, only piss will be affected.

    You again.


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    #31
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Technocentral wrote: »
    Great idea, only piss will be affected.
    First they came for the cheap piss and I did not speak up because I don't drink cheap piss.

    This is the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill. The title follows the pattern of the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 which included the smoking ban and a host of other restrictions. The Department of Health said yesterday "this is a landmark day. It is the first time alcohol misuse has been addressed as a public health issue", so this represents a major shift in government policy regarding alcohol: it is no longer a substance which merely has to be controlled; it is a danger to public health, and the people who use it must be treated the same way as smokers.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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