Kenny declares war on welfare culture

tayto lover · 21-10-2013 04:26PM

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

We have CE Scheme already,would not want to see these people pushed out who enjoy working in the community, just to give it to someone who has never worked who couldn't give a dam about community.

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

SCOOP 64 · 21-10-2013 04:31PM

tayto lover wrote: »

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

Or better still give them full time jobs and do the work that is being neglected
and replace council employees who retired.

doolox · 21-10-2013 04:53PM

...not in the military sense but in order to priovide work in a secure fashion to our young and also to unemployed in sectors which are in decline.

I have come across a lot of abuse in apprenticeships where they have not been able to complete their apprenticeships because the company goes bust. There needs to be a secure way for apprentices to complete the necessary work experience component of their course.

The government should be able to guarantee a proportion of the available work to be made available to apprentices who fall foul of a company closure or bankruptcy.

All too often people are not able to get a job without some necessary experience at a junior level, there should be a proportion of the available work set aside to qallow career starters to get on the "experience ladder" without enforced emigration.

Many jobs are available in German speaking areas, The Austrians enjoy the lowest ( I think ) at 4%, plenty of scope there for jobs if you can speak German. Our language education system needs to be radically overhauled and upgraded, but it probably is part of our isolation as an island that causes poor performance in languages.

I have come across many disputes and rows between workers and management where a properly funded, staffed and ran mediation service would work to supply both parties with relevant info on their rights, obligations and duties in each case, it might stop unemployment rising unduly if scarce jobs are not being lost through inexperience, ignorance or bad working practices and relationships on BOTH sides. I seem to recall that the Germans look upon dismissal or redundancy as a very last resort not to be tried until every other option has ben tried out.

The_Honeybadger · 21-10-2013 04:57PM

tayto lover wrote: »

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

tayto lover · 21-10-2013 05:14PM

mickeyk wrote: »

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

I didn't know that.
I have never been on the dole in my life but if I was then I would feel better with myself if I had to earn it. Nobody could call me a waster.
There should be no such thing as a person who never worked in their life but claimed all kinds of benefits regardless. If you are fit then do something and the kind of scheme you mentioned above is very suitable.

SCOOP 64 · 21-10-2013 05:18PM

mickeyk wrote: »

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

Don't understand the governments logic of getting the council to do this.

A married man on dole, wife 2 kids, claiming €372 then gets €20 extra €392.

But take him on full time and off the dole, €8.65 hr at 39 hrs €337 per week,(i know low pay for family,but he can still claim other benefits ,m/card,FIS etc..)
wouldn't this be cheaper for government?

who_ru · 21-10-2013 05:36PM

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

also this is the same Edna that had no moral problem in targeting, in many cases, people with severe mental and physical disabilities for serious cuts last year, while not contemplating an increase in tax for the highest earners above 100K.

just saying.

if you think Edna is a hero you're badly mistaken.

this is the same guy who didn't even have the courage of his own convictions to go on tv and debate the senate abolition. Yeah some tough guy alright.

Frank Lee Midere · 21-10-2013 05:39PM

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

If you are referring to construction jobs this is very possible. But every sector here is doing very well.

If you want to see the tangible evidence of the Dublin boom you can see everyday signs before the economic data proves it.
the number of people in pubs / restaurants and you will see that (the ones which aren't rubbish) are busy every night.

as another poster said, look at how busy public transport and the roads are.

how busy shopping centres are at the weekends.

This alone tells it's own story that Employment, wages, everything is up in Dublin..

It's gotten better but I went into a pub on Thursday which I remember as packed in 2006 and it was empty.

Weekends have kept up.

Frank Lee Midere · 21-10-2013 05:43PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't know that.
I have never been on the dole in my life but if I was then I would feel better with myself if I had to earn it. Nobody could call me a waster.
There should be no such thing as a person who never worked in their life but claimed all kinds of benefits regardless. If you are fit then do something and the kind of scheme you mentioned above is very suitable.

I have never been on the dole, if I had to I would feel about as guilty about it as I would for eventually drawing a pension ( which is most of the budget). Not would I accept being forced into this workfare, at least not for months ( which would be enough for me to emigrate if I had to).

See. I paid in. I want to take out if needed.

professore · 21-10-2013 05:50PM

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Don't understand the governments logic of getting the council to do this.

A married man on dole, wife 2 kids, claiming €372 then gets €20 extra €392.

But take him on full time and off the dole, €8.65 hr at 39 hrs €337 per week,(i know low pay for family,but he can still claim other benefits ,m/card,FIS etc..)
wouldn't this be cheaper for government?

€392 is far too much to pay a married man with 2 kids on the scratcher.

Make extra allowances for kids a universal benefit below a certain income. However don't make it cash. You could provide education vouchers for kids so they could get things like schoolbooks, school uniforms etc. for free. Make it so there is no embarrassment factor, i.e. the parents don't have to be publically seen to be using these vouchers. Maybe make everyone use them with the more well off buying them. If you don't send your kids to school regularly you get nothing, except dole cut. Anti social behaviour by you or your children - dole cut.

I am in favour of the German system, 66% of your gross income for a year, then cut to subsistence level - UK dole rates are about right. Genuine people made redundant have a chance to find work without going bankrupt in the meantime. If you can't find a job within a year well you won't starve.

professore · 21-10-2013 05:53PM

who_ru wrote: »

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

also this is the same Edna that had no moral problem in targeting, in many cases, people with severe mental and physical disabilities for serious cuts last year, while not contemplating an increase in tax for the highest earners above 100K.

just saying.

if you think Edna is a hero you're badly mistaken.

this is the same guy who didn't even have the courage of his own convictions to go on tv and debate the senate abolition. Yeah some tough guy alright.

Crippling cost of living in part due to the high level of welfare payments in this country. It drives everything else up in price (rents, wages etc.). Other reason is the protected public sector and the professional classes still charging Celtic Tiger prices. Bus and train fares to increase 10% again?? You're having a laugh. What private sector company could get away with that?

Idbatterim · 21-10-2013 06:00PM

Bus and train fares to increase 10% again??

and less people will use public transport and they will then again have to increase fares next year, its a self fulfilling prophecy, its like private health insurance!

who_ru · 21-10-2013 06:06PM

professore wrote: »

Crippling cost of living in part due to the high level of welfare payments in this country. It drives everything else up in price (rents, wages etc.). Other reason is the protected public sector and the professional classes still charging Celtic Tiger prices. Bus and train fares to increase 10% again?? You're having a laugh. What private sector company could get away with that?

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

as someone said on the radio the other day, the only money left in the public health sector soon will be to pay employees only, nothing for patients or care.

What a situation.

Idbatterim · 21-10-2013 06:26PM

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

these are no doubt the same ones, who actually spend far more on the communion than the ones who can actually afford it without looking for a hand out!

Idbatterim · 21-10-2013 06:37PM

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

That is shocking, must be enough money still floating around and fools parting with it, to pay that! My dentist in terenure does that for E60... Thats not an attack on you, who_ru by the way, anyone can get stung once, I was also badly stung by a dentist, a temporary filling for nearly E300 a few years ago!!! fool me once shame on you, full me twice...

dave ireland · 21-10-2013 06:55PM

Sorry Guys but the way I read it is, there is another pay cut on the way for those in employment or maybe the dole Q. A large amount of people on the dole who are not pushing really too hard for work because of their money been a fair amount, is probably not a bad thing.

Mess with them too hard and the might take up full time jobs (our jobs) for less money if they have too.

I work in security and from what I see there is no new contracts, company's are undercutting each other for what regular contracts there is out there, I'm sure other areas are the same.

Fore hundred odd thousand people suddenly prepared to work for €7 or €8 P/H is an employers dream.

wexie · 21-10-2013 07:01PM

dave ireland wrote: »

Sorry Guys but the way I read it is, there is another pay cut on the way for those in employment or maybe the dole Q. A large amount of people on the dole who are not pushing really too hard for work because of their money been a fair amount, is probably not a bad thing.

Mess with them too hard and the might take up full time jobs (our jobs) for less money if they have too.

I work in security and from what I see there is no new contracts, company's are undercutting each other for what regular contracts there is out there, I'm sure other areas are the same.

Fore hundred odd thousand people suddenly prepared to work for €7 or €8 P/H is an employers dream.

Whut?

creep · 21-10-2013 07:03PM

Sleepy wrote: »

The volume of rush hour traffic on the M50 the last 3 months or so would certainly suggest that Dublin is well on the road to recovery alright...

That has nothing to do with the schools and colleges been back no?

tayto lover · 21-10-2013 07:05PM

Agree with you to a point Dave.
The whole "reduce minimum wage" thing is an ISME and IBEC plan to make more profits. But people should work for their money. 20 hours and receive your dole at current rates seems fair to me.

I also disagree with the posters who wants to reduce Public Sector wages again as they have been cut several times already and those cuts also helps Private Sector bosses as it's the argument they use to enable them to also cut their employees wages.

Uriel. · 21-10-2013 07:09PM

who_ru wrote: »

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

as someone said on the radio the other day, the only money left in the public health sector soon will be to pay employees only, nothing for patients or care.

What a situation.

You need to shop around to be honest. Got all that done a few months ago in Dublin City centre for €50.

They obviously saw you coming? Wasn't Nidgy's dentist was it?

tayto lover · 21-10-2013 07:12PM

Uriel. wrote: »

You need to shop around to be honest. Got all that done a few months ago in Dublin City centre for €50.

They obviously saw you coming? Wasn't Nidgy's dentist was it?

I wonder if he needs crowns?

Gatling · 21-10-2013 07:14PM

who_ru wrote: »

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!
.

They stopped handing out money for Communions/ religious ceremonies a good while back

Tracy Alman · 21-10-2013 07:17PM

Judging from all the shyte comments on here, it seems that its the unemployed that brought the economy and the country to its knees and to the door of the IMF.
Have you all forgotten about the 3 retired taoiseach's that are presently in receipt of well in excess of 100000 Euro per annum not including the cars and two driver for each car, the muliple fat pensions being paid to serving EU ministers, the past presidents still very much alive and receiving benefits as I write all the ex ministers of fat pensions and serving on numerous state quango's.

HAVE you all forgotten the BANKSTERS and PROPERTY DEVELOPERS ( not one has been charged to date) some of whom are employed by that great thing called NAMA. AHHHHH YESSS POSTERS with typical Irish Style and with "OOR INDA" as cheerleader you attack the most vulnerable AHHH YESS the "craw thumpin Irish" good honest Catholics attack the least able to defend themselves, WELL BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES you misguided cretins

dave ireland · 21-10-2013 07:28PM

I'm even doing some hours for nothing I fin at 0800 but it takes 30mins to pack up and make the job safe, I do not mind that, that's just the way things are. If I'm called up to the office and told to take another pay cut (I'm out).

No mather how good or safe you think you are, if there's Guys out there willing to work for €7 or €8 P/H your boss will take them on.

Idbatterim · 21-10-2013 07:43PM

Judging from all the shyte comments on here, it seems that its the unemployed that brought the economy and the country to its knees and to the door of the IMF.
Have you all forgotten about the 3 retired taoiseach's that are presently in receipt of well in excess of 100000 Euro per annum not including the cars and two driver for each car, the muliple fat pensions being paid to serving EU ministers, the past presidents still very much alive and receiving benefits as I write all the ex ministers of fat pensions and serving on numerous state quango's.

HAVE you all forgotten the BANKSTERS and PROPERTY DEVELOPERS ( not one has been charged to date) some of whom are employed by that great thing called NAMA. AHHHHH YESSS POSTERS with typical Irish Style and with "OOR INDA" as cheerleader you attack the most vulnerable AHHH YESS the "craw thumpin Irish" good honest Catholics attack the least able to defend themselves, WELL BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES you misguided cretins

You think anyone will disagree with you about ex taoisigh pensions or other perks? or the bankers etc having taken and still continuing to take the piss?! thats for another thread though, if you start one, I'm sure we will all be right behind you!

who_ru · 21-10-2013 08:07PM

Uriel. wrote: »

You need to shop around to be honest. Got all that done a few months ago in Dublin City centre for €50.

They obviously saw you coming? Wasn't Nidgy's dentist was it?

a case of once bitten, twice shy.

won't happen again, i suppose the point i was trying to make is that the troika wanted to bring down costs to consumers in many protected areas like legal services, dentist, consultants etc but it hasn't happened.

it hasn't happened because the Govt/Edna doesn't want it to happen so they declare war on welfare recipients instead.

_Kaiser_ · 21-10-2013 08:15PM

This is honestly the funniest thread I've read here in ages!
Come on now.. let's step back from the keyboards for a minute and THINK about this!

Enda Kenny...

- the man who reneged on virtually every pre-election promise the minute he got into power

- who has been more concerned with being a "good European" than representing the people who put him there

- who refuses point blank to debate outside the Dail and even there can't do it without resorting to petty name-calling or deflection tactics about whose party did what (as if ANY of the current parties have a spotless history)

- who's had several members of his party turn against him

- who 2.5 years on is STILL blaming FF on almost a daily basis

- who just had his pet-project referendum on abolishing the Seanad defeated, quite possibly due to the above arrogance and sending Bruton out to do the job for him

- who has a health minister (and party colleague) with apparently less maths ability than Cowen and Bertie having his competence openly questioned by TD's and the media

.. has suddenly decided he's going to be the one to sort out the welfare system?? A guy who has been in "public service" since 1975 and was "double-jobbing" himself for 30 years.

And you people believe it? It didn't occur to you that this might just be another populist attempt to win back his core voters after the 2 latest fiascos? An attempt to distract from these rather embarrassing issues, especially with the local/Euro elections coming up?

Oh and let's not forget Enda's idea of "incentivising" is to push young people back into their parents home (assuming the parents can afford to keep them that is!) or onto a plane. Or extending the massively-abused "Job Bridge" scheme to 18 months - but hey, if it reduces (hides!) the true extent of the problem then sure why not!

I give up. Yes of course Welfare needs to be reformed, but if anyone believes this cardboard cut-out of a "leader" who can't do anything without a prepared speech in front of him, is going to enact any meaningful change then I think you're in for a big disappointment!

Tracy Alman · 21-10-2013 08:36PM

I agree it is for another thread, but it makes my blood boil when I see/read attacks on the very people who had nothing to do with the present situation. The Gov. does this deliberately to deflect attention and all the Posters swallow it hook line and sinker

Tracy Alman · 21-10-2013 08:39PM

Thank God someone like you has a handle on this ass----e Kenny and indeed the present Gov.:)

road_high · 21-10-2013 08:42PM

Tracy Alman wrote: »

I agree it is for another thread, but it makes my blood boil when I see/read attacks on the very people who had nothing to do with the present situation. The Gov. does this deliberately to deflect attention and all the Posters swallow it hook line and sinker

But it's a 20 billion € public expenditure. It would be crazy of the govt not to reform/reduce this. In fact, that's why they were elected by most. Not for the gravy train to go on. Fair welfare yes. Indefinite "entitlements" no.

Kenny declares war on welfare culture

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