Kenny declares war on welfare culture

Idbatterim

FIONNAN SHEAHAN GROUP POLITICAL EDITOR – 21 OCTOBER 2013

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny is promising to intensify government action to end what he describes as "welfare dependency".

Mr Kenny is pledging changes to target the so-called "welfare traps" which create a disincentive to work.

Writing in today's Irish Independent, he robustly defends the controversial cut to dole payments for young unemployed people in last week's Budget, saying: "We cannot allow welfare dependency to take root."

Mr Kenny is indicating the move is just the start of a series of measures to tackle the welfare culture. "A whole new approach to work activation and welfare reform is required to break the cycle of welfare dependency," he says.

Fine Gael's message is also directed at taxpayers contributing to the cost of public services. Mr Kenny and Finance Minister Michael Noonan have been deliberately pitching the crackdown on dole and medical cards to the taxpayers who are footing the bill.

Mr Kenny says the Government is only in the "early phases" of social welfare reform and has plans for much more to come.

Among the measures in the pipeline, he says the Government will bring in external private sector companies to help the unemployed find work.

"We will target the welfare traps that prevent families taking up work," he says.

The Government's reduction in social welfare payments for the under 25s was one of the most contentious aspects of last week's Budget.

Fine Gael wanted to go even further in cutting social welfare, but was blocked by the Labour Party.

But Mr Kenny is pledging to intensify efforts to reduce long-term unemployment and welfare dependency. He says while the private sector is now creating 3,000 jobs a month, we can't rely on economic growth alone to reduce unemployment.

Mr Kenny says the number of jobless households went up by 50pc, from 10pc to 15pc, at the height of the boom.

When the economic crash happened, this figure increased to more than one in every five households.

"This is unacceptable and can't be allowed to fester, otherwise we'll be living with the long-term social and economic consequences for years to come," he says.

Mr Kenny referred to OECD recommendations that are focused on providing more 'work activation' schemes and not passive income supports. "In other words, our young people should be continuing in education and training, not languishing on dole queues," he says.

RIGHTS

In the Budget, the Government changed the dole payments for unemployed young people. Already, young people didn't get the full €188 a week dole payment, instead being paid a lower rate. Up until now, young people aged 18 to 21 received €100 a week and those aged 22 to 24 got €144.

The €100 rate will now be applied to people aged 22 to 24. At 25, jobseekers who were getting €188 will now get €144.

A jobseeker won't get the full €188 rate until he or she turns 26. The changes will only apply to new entrants to the Live Register and won't affect existing recipients.

In the UK, Jobseekers' Allowance is paid for six months, and ranges from £56.80 (€67.12) for people aged 16 to 24 years, rising to £71.70 (€84.73) for those 25 and over.

In Germany, unemployment benefit is based the salary prior to becoming unemployed, and is generally two-thirds of gross earnings. It can be claimed for up to 12 months. In Spain, benefits are also based on earnings with a minimum benefit of €497 per month, up to a maximum of €1,397 for couples with two or more children.

Have to say I'm delighted this is finally being taken seriously. If they were prepared to seriously tackle welfare the welfare culture and problems here, the savings could be used for job creation, infrastructure, hiring more teachers, nurses, guardai (if needed and only an example)...

While he is largely right it is a hugely complex problem to solve, has any modern welfare state ever sorted this problem out? Even in the US where is not a welfare state in the way Europe is you still get complaints about welfare dependants.

jank

From what I hear Germany has it right. Welfare payments in Ireland are one of the highest in the world, not something that is sustainable given that we are broke and borrowing 1 Billion a month to pay the bills. Labour as usual blocking reform.

henryporter

jank wrote: »

From what I hear Germany has it right. Welfare payments in Ireland are one of the highest in the world, not something that is sustainable given that we are broke and borrowing 1 Billion a month to pay the bills. Labour as usual blocking reform.

Don't worry - Labour won't have much of a say in the next Government.

Elephant Man from china

It was great to read an article like this.. Enda wants to do this but is being held back the scrounger supporting communists he is in coalition with.

It's a total joke that the middle classes are paying some of the highest effective tax rates in Europe but get the fewest services. While the scrounger class get literally everything for free and there is no push yo get them back to work / work for their benefits.they are being protected to the hilt by a government party. There is no reason for anyone in Dublin to be unemployed, the capital has full employment. Everyone knows this, but few will say it.

If Enda carries through with this he gets my vote in the next election

joi99

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

It was great to read an article like this.. Enda wants to do this but is being held back the scrounger supporting communists he is in coalition with.

It's a total joke that the middle classes are paying some of the highest effective tax rates in Europe but get the fewest services. While the scrounger class get literally everything for free and there is no push yo get them back to work / work for their benefits.they are being protected to the hilt by a government party. There is no reason for anyone in Dublin to be unemployed, the capital has full employment. Everyone knows this, but few will say it.

If Enda carries through with this he gets my vote in the next election

Bulls**t!

Harry Angstrom

Great man for the soundbite is Enda Kenny. Last week he told the Dail that discretionary medical cards were not being taken away from patients with longterm serious illnesses, when the fact is they ARE being taken away from them, which makes him either a liar, an idiot or both.

This week he decides he wants to launch a crusade against people on welfare, thus deflecting against the continued mismanagement of the country by self-interested politicians. He's nothing more than a blueshirt fascist pig.

Sleepy

It sounds like someone's finally realised why they were voted in... A "Let Bartlett be Bartlett" moment for Irish politics?

fl4pj4ck

This is what this country needs! More declarations!

Elephant Man from china

joi99 wrote: »

Bulls**t!

No it's not.. The capital is booming.even my friends who were in construction and didn't work for months at a time are all employed and going from job to job with little to no down time.

The tide has turned in Dublin almost a year ago now.

Elephant Man from china

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Great man for the soundbite is Enda Kenny. Last week he told the Dail that discretionary medical cards were not being taken away from patients with longterm serious illnesses, when the fact is they ARE being taken away from them, which makes him either a liar, an idiot or both.

This week he decides he wants to launch a crusade against people on welfare, thus deflecting against the continued mismanagement of the country by self-interested politicians. He's nothing more than a blueshirt fascist pig.

By the time Enda is finished I'm confident he will be one of Ireland's great reformers. Comments like "blue shirt" and "fascist" show he's making a good start

road_high

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

No it's not.. The capital is booming.even my friends who were in construction and didn't work for months at a time are all employed and going from job to job with little to no down time.

The tide has turned in Dublin almost a year ago now.

Dublin is hopping the past 2 years. Look at the traffic on the M50 as a barometer even. One of Europes hotspots.

Elephant Man from china

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

No it's not.. The capital is booming.even my friends who were in construction and didn't work for months at a time are all employed and going from job to job with little to no down time.

The tide has turned in Dublin almost a year ago now.

I am not saying you are not right, however short contracts, agency work and less that full hours is not full employment and while a lot are working it is often not on full hours, plus there is starting to be talk of the housing market overheating in Dublin again. That's not solving the unemployment problem.

Harry Angstrom

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

By the time Enda is finished I'm confident he will be one of Ireland's great reformers.

This made me lol :D

Elephant Man from china

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not saying you are not right, however short contracts, agency work and less that full hours is not full employment and while a lot are working it is often not on full hours.

If you are referring to construction jobs this is very possible. But every sector here is doing very well.

If you want to see the tangible evidence of the Dublin boom you can see everyday signs before the economic data proves it.
the number of people in pubs / restaurants and you will see that (the ones which aren't rubbish) are busy every night.

as another poster said, look at how busy public transport and the roads are.

how busy shopping centres are at the weekends.

This alone tells it's own story that Employment, wages, everything is up in Dublin..

Sleepy

The volume of rush hour traffic on the M50 the last 3 months or so would certainly suggest that Dublin is well on the road to recovery alright...

I have no time for the life time on welfare types however I think there is a big disconnect between welfare and work some examples. These need to be tackled along with welfare reform.

The cost of child care.

The mass canalisation of work and how to integrate this with with welfare supports.

DoesNotCompute

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

No it's not.. The capital is booming.even my friends who were in construction and didn't work for months at a time are all employed and going from job to job with little to no down time.

The tide has turned in Dublin almost a year ago now.

What parts of the capital? Which industries specifically? Just because a few of your mates in one specific sector of the economy are going from job to job with little to no downtime doesn't mean "the capital is booming".

byronbay2

mariaalice wrote: »

I have no time for the life time on welfare types however I think there is a big disconnect between welfare and work some examples. These need to be tackled along with welfare reform.

The cost of child care.

The mass canalisation of work and how to integrate this with with welfare supports.

Pardon my ignorance but what does that word mean?

jester77

jank wrote: »

From what I hear Germany has it right. Welfare payments in Ireland are one of the highest in the world, not something that is sustainable given that we are broke and borrowing 1 Billion a month to pay the bills. Labour as usual blocking reform.

The German system is a lot fairer when you are suddenly unemployed, it pays around 66% of your previous years salary for 12 months. This means that you don't suddenly fall into a situation where you can't pay your bills as any properly functioning household can easily live from 66%.

It also does't reward long term unemployment, unlike the Irish system. Once the 12 months are up and you are still unemployed then you have to liquidate assets in order to get further assistance. So if you have a big car, or 2 small cars, or a larger house than deemed necessary, etc. then these will all need to be sold off and only then will you get further assistance once you have used up the proceeds.

And even then you don't get anything like the handouts in Ireland. They will also set you up with work, and if you refuse to take the job your benefits are reduced until you are eventually left on the street.

SCOOP 64

I think the vast majority of long term unemployed who are genuinely looking for work will welcome any support in finding a job if thats whats being offered.

Tabnabs

With all these "welfare traps" eradicated and people back to work, can we expect a reduction in taxes and more of our hard earned money staying in our pay checks?
















No, thought not...

Chazz Michael Michaels

We all partied...

July Rain

Is enda Kenny himself really that different from somebody on welfare ? He has never earned a cent in his life that didn't come from the exchequer

Mountjoy Mugger

jank wrote: »

From what I hear Germany has it right. Welfare payments in Ireland are one of the highest in the world, not something that is sustainable given that we are broke and borrowing 1 Billion a month to pay the bills.

I was listening to a news item on BBC Radio 5 where British ex-Pats were saying that it was a lot easier to get decent money from the German state than from UK.

It's a matter of perception. Unless you've been there and worn the hair shirt, you can't really make a call.

Idbatterim

The volume of rush hour traffic on the M50 the last 3 months or so would certainly suggest that Dublin is well on the road to recovery alright...

I take the M50 once a month at peak morning hours and despite the fact the toll bridge is now gone, I am still sitting in stop and go traffic on a motorway with 4 lanes in places, its not like you are even crawling in first or second, its ridiculous!

damienirel

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

I was listening to a news item on BBC Radio 5 where British ex-Pats were saying that it was a lot easier to get decent money from the German state than from UK.

It's a matter of perception. Unless you've been there and worn the hair shirt, you can't really make a call.

That could be true - but to be fair Ireland has given free housing free health and free cash for decades to those that refuse to take a low paying job because it doesn't pay enough to match what the state is paying.

I think politics(Enda et al) aside - we're under major pressure from Europe to unify welfare across Europe. Europe is looking for a mobile workforce. Also Europe doesn't see people traveling to other European states as emigration, they see it as a way of fixing demand led skills shortages. This is the future. The future is brighter for an Ireland that is really ran by Europe not gombeens in the Dáil. So if somebody says that Enda is a puppet for the Troika and for the European Union - I would agree - but I would add that everybody after him will be too.

tayto lover

I would agree with paying out a reasonable dole on condition that those receiving it work at least 20 hours doing designated jobs in the community.

Rightwing

Why isn't Enda getting carried away with the multiple pension lifestyle enjoyed by failed politicians, many of whom are working elsewhere?

SCOOP 64

tayto lover wrote: »

I would agree with paying out a reasonable dole on condition that those receiving it work at least 20 hours doing designated jobs in the community.

We have CE Scheme already,would not want to see these people pushed out who enjoy working in the community, just to give it to someone who has never worked who couldn't give a dam about community.

Maura74

tayto lover wrote: »

I would agree with paying out a reasonable dole on condition that those receiving it work at least 20 hours doing
designated jobs in the community.

I agree, any kind of work for young people is charter building, young people starting out in life needs that experience.

tayto lover

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

We have CE Scheme already,would not want to see these people pushed out who enjoy working in the community, just to give it to someone who has never worked who couldn't give a dam about community.

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

SCOOP 64

tayto lover wrote: »

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

Or better still give them full time jobs and do the work that is being neglected
and replace council employees who retired.

doolox

...not in the military sense but in order to priovide work in a secure fashion to our young and also to unemployed in sectors which are in decline.

I have come across a lot of abuse in apprenticeships where they have not been able to complete their apprenticeships because the company goes bust. There needs to be a secure way for apprentices to complete the necessary work experience component of their course.

The government should be able to guarantee a proportion of the available work to be made available to apprentices who fall foul of a company closure or bankruptcy.

All too often people are not able to get a job without some necessary experience at a junior level, there should be a proportion of the available work set aside to qallow career starters to get on the "experience ladder" without enforced emigration.

Many jobs are available in German speaking areas, The Austrians enjoy the lowest ( I think ) at 4%, plenty of scope there for jobs if you can speak German. Our language education system needs to be radically overhauled and upgraded, but it probably is part of our isolation as an island that causes poor performance in languages.

I have come across many disputes and rows between workers and management where a properly funded, staffed and ran mediation service would work to supply both parties with relevant info on their rights, obligations and duties in each case, it might stop unemployment rising unduly if scarce jobs are not being lost through inexperience, ignorance or bad working practices and relationships on BOTH sides. I seem to recall that the Germans look upon dismissal or redundancy as a very last resort not to be tried until every other option has ben tried out.

The_Honeybadger

tayto lover wrote: »

They could be used to do work not covered in CE schemes. They could do the work that is being neglected because of the non-replacement of the council employees who retired.

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

tayto lover

mickeyk wrote: »

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

I didn't know that.
I have never been on the dole in my life but if I was then I would feel better with myself if I had to earn it. Nobody could call me a waster.
There should be no such thing as a person who never worked in their life but claimed all kinds of benefits regardless. If you are fit then do something and the kind of scheme you mentioned above is very suitable.

SCOOP 64

mickeyk wrote: »

This is already being done, councils around the country are preparing to take on an army of unemployed people for dole plus 20e if I remember correctly. I think their pay still comes from the sw budget though. There are also thousands of people already on the tus scheme around the country, you have to be on job seekers assistance to be eligible for the scheme and participants are randomly selected from the register. These types of schemes require supervision and materials however so it's simply not possible to give everybody on the dole something to do. Random selection of long term unemployed is probably the fairest way to do it.

Don't understand the governments logic of getting the council to do this.

A married man on dole, wife 2 kids, claiming €372 then gets €20 extra €392.

But take him on full time and off the dole, €8.65 hr at 39 hrs €337 per week,(i know low pay for family,but he can still claim other benefits ,m/card,FIS etc..)
wouldn't this be cheaper for government?

who_ru

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

also this is the same Edna that had no moral problem in targeting, in many cases, people with severe mental and physical disabilities for serious cuts last year, while not contemplating an increase in tax for the highest earners above 100K.

just saying.

if you think Edna is a hero you're badly mistaken.

this is the same guy who didn't even have the courage of his own convictions to go on tv and debate the senate abolition. Yeah some tough guy alright.

Frank Lee Midere

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

If you are referring to construction jobs this is very possible. But every sector here is doing very well.

If you want to see the tangible evidence of the Dublin boom you can see everyday signs before the economic data proves it.
the number of people in pubs / restaurants and you will see that (the ones which aren't rubbish) are busy every night.

as another poster said, look at how busy public transport and the roads are.

how busy shopping centres are at the weekends.

This alone tells it's own story that Employment, wages, everything is up in Dublin..

It's gotten better but I went into a pub on Thursday which I remember as packed in 2006 and it was empty.

Weekends have kept up.

Frank Lee Midere

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't know that.
I have never been on the dole in my life but if I was then I would feel better with myself if I had to earn it. Nobody could call me a waster.
There should be no such thing as a person who never worked in their life but claimed all kinds of benefits regardless. If you are fit then do something and the kind of scheme you mentioned above is very suitable.

I have never been on the dole, if I had to I would feel about as guilty about it as I would for eventually drawing a pension ( which is most of the budget). Not would I accept being forced into this workfare, at least not for months ( which would be enough for me to emigrate if I had to).

See. I paid in. I want to take out if needed.

professore

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Don't understand the governments logic of getting the council to do this.

A married man on dole, wife 2 kids, claiming €372 then gets €20 extra €392.

But take him on full time and off the dole, €8.65 hr at 39 hrs €337 per week,(i know low pay for family,but he can still claim other benefits ,m/card,FIS etc..)
wouldn't this be cheaper for government?

€392 is far too much to pay a married man with 2 kids on the scratcher.

Make extra allowances for kids a universal benefit below a certain income. However don't make it cash. You could provide education vouchers for kids so they could get things like schoolbooks, school uniforms etc. for free. Make it so there is no embarrassment factor, i.e. the parents don't have to be publically seen to be using these vouchers. Maybe make everyone use them with the more well off buying them. If you don't send your kids to school regularly you get nothing, except dole cut. Anti social behaviour by you or your children - dole cut.

I am in favour of the German system, 66% of your gross income for a year, then cut to subsistence level - UK dole rates are about right. Genuine people made redundant have a chance to find work without going bankrupt in the meantime. If you can't find a job within a year well you won't starve.

professore

who_ru wrote: »

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

also this is the same Edna that had no moral problem in targeting, in many cases, people with severe mental and physical disabilities for serious cuts last year, while not contemplating an increase in tax for the highest earners above 100K.

just saying.

if you think Edna is a hero you're badly mistaken.

this is the same guy who didn't even have the courage of his own convictions to go on tv and debate the senate abolition. Yeah some tough guy alright.

Crippling cost of living in part due to the high level of welfare payments in this country. It drives everything else up in price (rents, wages etc.). Other reason is the protected public sector and the professional classes still charging Celtic Tiger prices. Bus and train fares to increase 10% again?? You're having a laugh. What private sector company could get away with that?

Idbatterim

Bus and train fares to increase 10% again??

and less people will use public transport and they will then again have to increase fares next year, its a self fulfilling prophecy, its like private health insurance!

who_ru

professore wrote: »

Crippling cost of living in part due to the high level of welfare payments in this country. It drives everything else up in price (rents, wages etc.). Other reason is the protected public sector and the professional classes still charging Celtic Tiger prices. Bus and train fares to increase 10% again?? You're having a laugh. What private sector company could get away with that?

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

as someone said on the radio the other day, the only money left in the public health sector soon will be to pay employees only, nothing for patients or care.

What a situation.

Idbatterim

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

these are no doubt the same ones, who actually spend far more on the communion than the ones who can actually afford it without looking for a hand out!

Idbatterim

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

That is shocking, must be enough money still floating around and fools parting with it, to pay that! My dentist in terenure does that for E60... Thats not an attack on you, who_ru by the way, anyone can get stung once, I was also badly stung by a dentist, a temporary filling for nearly E300 a few years ago!!! fool me once shame on you, full me twice...

dave ireland

Sorry Guys but the way I read it is, there is another pay cut on the way for those in employment or maybe the dole Q. A large amount of people on the dole who are not pushing really too hard for work because of their money been a fair amount, is probably not a bad thing.

Mess with them too hard and the might take up full time jobs (our jobs) for less money if they have too.

I work in security and from what I see there is no new contracts, company's are undercutting each other for what regular contracts there is out there, I'm sure other areas are the same.

Fore hundred odd thousand people suddenly prepared to work for €7 or €8 P/H is an employers dream.

wexie

dave ireland wrote: »

Sorry Guys but the way I read it is, there is another pay cut on the way for those in employment or maybe the dole Q. A large amount of people on the dole who are not pushing really too hard for work because of their money been a fair amount, is probably not a bad thing.

Mess with them too hard and the might take up full time jobs (our jobs) for less money if they have too.

I work in security and from what I see there is no new contracts, company's are undercutting each other for what regular contracts there is out there, I'm sure other areas are the same.

Fore hundred odd thousand people suddenly prepared to work for €7 or €8 P/H is an employers dream.

Whut?

creep

Sleepy wrote: »

The volume of rush hour traffic on the M50 the last 3 months or so would certainly suggest that Dublin is well on the road to recovery alright...

That has nothing to do with the schools and colleges been back no?

tayto lover

Agree with you to a point Dave.
The whole "reduce minimum wage" thing is an ISME and IBEC plan to make more profits. But people should work for their money. 20 hours and receive your dole at current rates seems fair to me.

I also disagree with the posters who wants to reduce Public Sector wages again as they have been cut several times already and those cuts also helps Private Sector bosses as it's the argument they use to enable them to also cut their employees wages.

Uriel.

who_ru wrote: »

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

as someone said on the radio the other day, the only money left in the public health sector soon will be to pay employees only, nothing for patients or care.

What a situation.

You need to shop around to be honest. Got all that done a few months ago in Dublin City centre for €50.

They obviously saw you coming? Wasn't Nidgy's dentist was it?