Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 10:55PM

I would imagine that the next social welfare act (probably early 2014) will give the gardai specific statutory powers regarding this issue.

theholyghost · 18-10-2013 10:56PM

Was on the street with a top solicitor a few years ago watching undesirables getting hauled off so the queen would not have to see them. He told me if the guards want to haul you off they can no problem. Im sure they cant charge you so easily but Im sure they can mess up your day!

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:56PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

That is not true.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.

And asking for a pps number has to do with this ? Not giving a pps number is not a crime in Ireland. Well only to the revenue in relation to tax.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 10:56PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

They can ask anything they like. Statute dictates if you are required to answer.

Yes but also under common law they can arrest you if they suspect that you have committed a crime.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 10:58PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And asking for a pps number has to do with this ? Not giving a pps number is not a crime in Ireland. Well only to the revenue in relation to tax.

If not giving your ppsn causes garda to suspect that you may be guilty of fraud then they can arrest you under common law.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:58PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes but also under common law they can arrest you if they suspect that you have committed a crime.

what crime not giving a pps number ?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:00PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

what crime not giving a pps number ?

It's not a crime but refusing it would reasonably raise suspicion of crime.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:00PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If not giving your ppsn causes garda to suspect that you may be guilty of fraud then they can arrest you under common law.

err no they cant they can detain your for the purpose of verifying who you are not hauling you in to get your pps number. If you have not committed any crimes/fraud they can not ask you for your pps number. Your name would be known to them if you have committed fraud

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:01PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

That is not true.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.

you've just confirmed what i have told you. when a garda believes a crime has been committed.... so driving in your car is "reasonable grounds" to arrest or question you about a possible crime? reasonable grounds means he is NOT making an assumption of a crime being committed. he can ask your name and address but he has no right to ask you if you are employed.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:07PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

you've just confirmed what i have told you. when a garda believes a crime has been committed.... so driving in your car is "reasonable grounds" to arrest or question you about a possible crime? reasonable grounds means he is NOT making an assumption of a crime being committed. he can ask your name and address but he has no right to ask you if you are employed.

The wording is reasonable grounds of suspicion. if you refuse to tell garda ppsn then that would be reasonable grounds of suspicion.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:09PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

It's not a crime but refusing it would reasonably raise suspicion of crime.

how exactly ? just because you think it's suspicious does not make it so. I think the only people with a legal right to ask this are immigration and the revenue

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:10PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

The wording is reasonable grounds of suspicion. if you refuse to tell garda ppsn then that would be reasonable grounds of suspicion.

no it would not...he would require reasonable grounds to ask you that question.....and i would imagine up to that point would be assuming a crime had been committed

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:12PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

how exactly ? just because you think it's suspicious does not make it so. I think the only people with a legal right to ask this are immigration and the revenue

Garda is looking for welfare fraud. Garda requests ppsn but is refused.

Objectively Suspicious.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:14PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Garda is looking for welfare fraud. Garda requests ppsn but is refused.

Objectively Suspicious.

Really so there is a big sign saying stop check for welfare fraud at a Road traffic checkpoint now ? You cannot setup a checkpoint for welfare fraud alone it would not be legal so why would it be illegal to not give them the pps number. You cannot be stopped in the street by a garda and asked your pps number either. There just trying to catch people out that don't know there civil rights

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:17PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really so there is a big sign saying stop check for welfare fraud at a Road traffic checkpoint now ?

No I don't think the will be.

I think the gardai will inform individuals why they are along questions at the outset.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:18PM

Do you guys not WANT the gardai to nail these fraudsters? What's wrong with you?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:19PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really so there is a big sign saying stop check for welfare fraud at a Road traffic checkpoint now ? You cannot setup a checkpoint for welfare fraud alone it would not be legal so why would it be illegal to not give them the pps number. You cannot be stopped in the street by a garda and asked your pps number either. There just trying to catch people out that don't know there civil rights

Why would it be illegal?

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:19PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting this. The common law right of a Garda to stop you without suspicion is, in any case, according to the supreme court, statutorily 'backed up' under s.109 of the road traffic act 1961. Note that a section 109 request is not conditional on suspicion.

You do have the right not to answer, that's not 'freemanry'.

Nevertheless, if you refuse to answer, a Garda might cite this as reason for reasonable suspicion. Stopping your car is a general power, arrest is based on reasonable suspicion.

All I am saying is what the courts have said, I'm not saying I agree that it's fair. In fact, even the current Chief Justice disagreed with the Supreme Court in DPP v Fagan, but she was outvoted 4-1.

Would take a week and a half to explain the difference between common law (law) and statutory acts of parliament. The court structure, its background. The ability of the accused to demurr, refute, argue their point under law when accused by a keeper of the peace.

TL/DR Freeman on the land nonsense.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:21PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Do you guys not WANT the gardai to nail these fraudsters? What's wrong with you?

What's wrong with me is i don't want to be stopped and asked stupid questions that are not legal. if they suspect welfare fraud go to there house or stop there payments easy. This is not some banana republic were you can be stopped and detained for anything they come up with it is not legal

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:22PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why would it be illegal?

Pps number has nothing to do with road traffic offences

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:23PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Do you guys not WANT the gardai to nail these fraudsters? What's wrong with you?

it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 11:24PM

theholyghost wrote: »

Was on the street with a top solicitor a few years ago watching undesirables getting hauled off so the queen would not have to see them. He told me if the guards want to haul you off they can no problem. Im sure they cant charge you so easily but Im sure they can mess up your day!

I'd love to hear the conversation between Gardaí at times like this. I'd like to think they don't take that attitude, but yes, offences like breach of the peace provide extremely broad grounds for arrest.

ezra_pound wrote: »

The wording is reasonable grounds of suspicion. if you refuse to tell garda ppsn then that would be reasonable grounds of suspicion.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the circumstances of the case. If you had, say, work documents with you, and could ground a reasonable objection to producing your PPS number in law, I think that would form a strong basis for refusing to comply. If you were calm and courteous, I think very few Gardaí could ground a reasonable suspicion, honestly held, from that interaction.

It's really a case by case issue. If you were nervous and agitated and refused to give your PPSN, I think a reasonable suspicion would arise.

Technoprisoner wrote: »

no it would not...he would require reasonable grounds to ask you that question.....

This is just wrong.

hansfrei wrote: »

Would take a week and a half to explain the difference between common law (law) and statutory acts of parliament.

I know the difference. I don't think you do.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:24PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What's wrong with me is i don't want to be stopped and asked stupid questions that are not legal. if they suspect welfare fraud go to there house or stop there payments easy. This is not some banana republic were you can be stopped and detained for anything they come up with it is not legal

A. For the purposes of detecting welfare crime the gardai would reasonably be within their rights to ask for pps numbers

B. I'm sure this will be legislated for in the new year thus it will be very clearly legal.

C. Just tell them your number and move on.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:27PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?

i just remembered data protection would it not be illegal for a government employee to shout your pps number around so everyone could hear it ? as they have no right to ask for you dole card or what ever do they. only proof of id tax insurance licence at road traffic i don't even think they can ask for your passport can they ?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:27PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?

It's quite common in most civilised counties to be expected to produce identity cards and also to be arrested for failure to do so.

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:28PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

This is just wrong.

what is wrong with it?

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:29PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

A. For the purposes of detecting welfare crime the gardai would reasonably be within their rights to ask for pps numbers

B. I'm sure this will be legislated for in the new year thus it will be very clearly legal.

C. Just tell them your number and move on.

so you would be fine them knocking at your door and asking for your pps number then i assume you know without a warrent

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:29PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

It's quite common in most civilised counties to be expected to produce identity cards and also to be arrested for failure to do so.

ok so where does it say in irish law that this is ok to do?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:30PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?

I was harassed recently by garda. He made me blow into a balloon and then ascertained that I hadn't been drinking. He knows WAY TOO MUCH about my personal life.

He also had the cheek to ask 'have y drink taken?'

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:30PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

ok so where does it say in irish law that this is ok to do?

It does not your protected under the constitution

Freedom of movement without obstruction unless suspected of a crime

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

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