ezra_pound wrote: » That is not true.http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.
Fred Swanson wrote: » They can ask anything they like. Statute dictates if you are required to answer.
darkpagandeath wrote: » And asking for a pps number has to do with this ? Not giving a pps number is not a crime in Ireland. Well only to the revenue in relation to tax.
ezra_pound wrote: » Yes but also under common law they can arrest you if they suspect that you have committed a crime.
darkpagandeath wrote: » what crime not giving a pps number ?
ezra_pound wrote: » If not giving your ppsn causes garda to suspect that you may be guilty of fraud then they can arrest you under common law.
Technoprisoner wrote: » you've just confirmed what i have told you. when a garda believes a crime has been committed.... so driving in your car is "reasonable grounds" to arrest or question you about a possible crime? reasonable grounds means he is NOT making an assumption of a crime being committed. he can ask your name and address but he has no right to ask you if you are employed.
ezra_pound wrote: » It's not a crime but refusing it would reasonably raise suspicion of crime.
ezra_pound wrote: » The wording is reasonable grounds of suspicion. if you refuse to tell garda ppsn then that would be reasonable grounds of suspicion.
darkpagandeath wrote: » how exactly ? just because you think it's suspicious does not make it so. I think the only people with a legal right to ask this are immigration and the revenue
ezra_pound wrote: » Garda is looking for welfare fraud. Garda requests ppsn but is refused. Objectively Suspicious.
darkpagandeath wrote: » Really so there is a big sign saying stop check for welfare fraud at a Road traffic checkpoint now ?
darkpagandeath wrote: » Really so there is a big sign saying stop check for welfare fraud at a Road traffic checkpoint now ? You cannot setup a checkpoint for welfare fraud alone it would not be legal so why would it be illegal to not give them the pps number. You cannot be stopped in the street by a garda and asked your pps number either. There just trying to catch people out that don't know there civil rights
Cody Pomeray wrote: » I'm not sure where you're getting this. The common law right of a Garda to stop you without suspicion is, in any case, according to the supreme court, statutorily 'backed up' under s.109 of the road traffic act 1961. Note that a section 109 request is not conditional on suspicion. You do have the right not to answer, that's not 'freemanry'. Nevertheless, if you refuse to answer, a Garda might cite this as reason for reasonable suspicion. Stopping your car is a general power, arrest is based on reasonable suspicion. All I am saying is what the courts have said, I'm not saying I agree that it's fair. In fact, even the current Chief Justice disagreed with the Supreme Court in DPP v Fagan, but she was outvoted 4-1.
ezra_pound wrote: » Do you guys not WANT the gardai to nail these fraudsters? What's wrong with you?
ezra_pound wrote: » Why would it be illegal?
theholyghost wrote: » Was on the street with a top solicitor a few years ago watching undesirables getting hauled off so the queen would not have to see them. He told me if the guards want to haul you off they can no problem. Im sure they cant charge you so easily but Im sure they can mess up your day!
Technoprisoner wrote: » no it would not...he would require reasonable grounds to ask you that question.....
hansfrei wrote: » Would take a week and a half to explain the difference between common law (law) and statutory acts of parliament.
darkpagandeath wrote: » What's wrong with me is i don't want to be stopped and asked stupid questions that are not legal. if they suspect welfare fraud go to there house or stop there payments easy. This is not some banana republic were you can be stopped and detained for anything they come up with it is not legal
Technoprisoner wrote: » it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?
Cody Pomeray wrote: » This is just wrong.
ezra_pound wrote: » A. For the purposes of detecting welfare crime the gardai would reasonably be within their rights to ask for pps numbers B. I'm sure this will be legislated for in the new year thus it will be very clearly legal. C. Just tell them your number and move on.
ezra_pound wrote: » It's quite common in most civilised counties to be expected to produce identity cards and also to be arrested for failure to do so.
Technoprisoner wrote: » ok so where does it say in irish law that this is ok to do?
