man caught with 24 deer in a van

PL05 · 10-10-2013 08:43PM

Sparks wrote: »

I don't know but there wouldn't need to be one, practically speaking -- if you're poaching you're breaking a host of other laws which have hefty penalties. Trespass, breaking the conditions of your firearms licence, shooting without a deer licence if it's deer, and so on. Enforce the existing laws before writing new ones and all that

Was reading article today. it says gardai are targeting four specific poachers, it also says that poachers who hold valid deer hunting and firearms licences are shooting deer at night from public roads using high powered spot lights and rifles. so theres a few more laws broken ie; shooting from a vehicle, discharging a firearm in a public place ie; public road. If this is true and they are licenced then they should be dealt with more severely than your poachers that dont have the paper work, lets face it these twats should know better. Also, they should find out where these animals end up and those bas***ds should be done big time aswell.

Grizzly 45 · 10-10-2013 09:59PM

Cass wrote: »

We can bill them for the extra members.

That is very true, but consider this. The next time you re-apply you must declare you had a firearm license revoked. Revocation has no set period of time. It is at the Super's discretion.

This is now where it gets into semantics...Is it refused or revoked?? Two different legal terms that laypeople interchange wrongly.
For example it says on the form have you ever had a firearms liscense refused??Do they now mean in a criminal/ negligent matter or just because the Super want to play at being thick because of a case of "Idonlikedelookodat" itis??
If it is the case of the latter then I have been refused three firearm certs in my lifetime..Not because of any wrongdoing on my part but because of beuracratic outlook.So do I put that down on my next renewal along with the reason.."??".
Even if it is revoked,you still have the right of appeal to the high court for a review,or reapply after the period of revoke that usually is set by the court. Its not a life ban in any shape or form.

So how long do you think people would be willing to store a gun especially considering that most dealers are now charging for this?

Hhmm,well considering the amount some of these boyos are making with harvesting.I would say they could pay for decades if they wanted to.
There was a case apprently in Tipp last year with a game dealer who was fined the max possible.75K or thereabouts ..He had it in cash with him in the court and paid it .Said he would remake it in two months in the season and it is just part of the "busisness expenses.":eek:
Aytpcal story or not I dunno,but I have heard it now from 3 sources .

The handgun issue has been going on for nearly 5 years and in that time the majority have sold on their gun even those that were not refused as they cannot be arsed. So if a person has a rifle and kit worth €1,000, €2,000, etc would they think "Better store that" or would they think "sell it, and buy again down the road"?

Two different scenarios,but I take your point.
The handgun situation is a dying sport being helped along to a early death by the PTB doing its utmost to put a cushion over the dying ones face.:mad: Once CF pistol is gone here,it will be gone for our lifetimes I reckon.Once they are gone this time they are gone.:(

Thing is too its a buyers market at the moment and not everyone is buying either.So where people are expecting big money ,be they private or state,they mightnt get it and end up paying storage charges anyway.:D
even selling outside the ROI is a loser.There is a global glut on civvie guns,so much you would be mad to buy a new gun.

You would possibly never know it was a seized firearm. As for storage there are thousands of guns stored in barracks, and stations for the last 40+ years so adding the few extra that would come from such cases would not be an issue.

First thing I ever do is ask a GD when I espy a gun that I fancy...Whats its history??Whether it is factual or utter BS is moot as you will see it in the way it was kept.Same as used 2nd hand cars.

As for storage in barracks ,well you would have to ask a certain poster here who is in employment in the DF about their happiness in storing Irish civillian property for 40 odd years and how much it costs Joe&Jane taxpayer.

The big trouble with this tempoary custody order was no one in power ever gave any thought as to what would happen when the troubles ended in NI,win lose or draw.Or what would happen if the owners of said guns ,died,forgot about it,lost the paperwork,emigrated ,or whatever...As well as some of the paperwork going "missing" over the years as well in the Army /Garda sections of responsibility.

The Irish govt is now in a situation like the banks with dormant bank accounts.Cant close them as someone just might show up,cant junk them for the same reason .It is still Irish taxpayers property.Too tight to employ a person or group to track down the next of kin or owners and ask them would they like Gran paw's civil war mauser or a cash price for it??
So adding a few extra that are for auction wen the DF are trying to get the stuff out of their stores isnt likely either.Plus whats the betting that unless you were in certain circles,you would never hear of these items for sale???

Cass · 10-10-2013 10:41PM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is now where it gets into semantics...Is it refused or revoked?? Two different legal terms that laypeople interchange wrongly.

There are no semantics, and "laypeople" can read the FCA1 as well as the next "expert". It asks on section 2.4 (paraphrasing each question):

Have you ever been found guilty or have charges pending?
Have you ever been the subject of a court order relating to threatening behaviour?
Have you ever had a firearm application refused?
Have you ever had a firearm license revoked?

So not semantics it's plain black and white. Either case demands an explanation and i'm not talking about refusals, and don't believed i mentioned it, as the issue is about revocation of licenses and seizure of guns.

For example it says on the form have you ever had a firearms liscense refused??Do they now mean in a criminal/ negligent matter or just because the Super want to play at being thick because of a case of "Idonlikedelookodat" itis??

It means have you applied for a firearms license and been refused. AT ALL. EVER. A refusal, for whatever grounds, is a refusal.

If it is the case of the latter then I have been refused three firearm certs in my lifetime..Not because of any wrongdoing on my part but because of beuracratic outlook.So do I put that down on my next renewal along with the reason.."??".

Yes. Failing to do so is a fraudulent application.

Even if it is revoked,you still have the right of appeal to the high court for a review,or reapply after the period of revoke that usually is set by the court. Its not a life ban in any shape or form.

Never said it was a life ban, i only said there are not set time frames for such revocations. Also if the license is revoked by the Gardaí, and not the courts then it's at the Super's discretion.

As for appealing of course you can, but putting down that you illegally shot 24 deer will win you no sympathy, nor should it.

I'm also not up on my courts but i doubt it'd be high court. The cost would be in the tens of thousands. More likely it's a district court and appeal to either the circuit court. Stand to be corrected there.

Hhmm,well considering the amount some of these boyos are making with harvesting.I would say they could pay for decades if they wanted to.
There was a case apprently in Tipp last year with a game dealer who was fined the max possible.75K or thereabouts ..He had it in cash with him in the court and paid it .Said he would remake it in two months in the season and it is just part of the "busisness expenses.":eek:
Aytpcal story or not I dunno,but I have heard it now from 3 sources .

Recheck your sources. That is pure fiction. I actually met the man in that case and the fine was €9,500 of which he paid straight away. However the point is well taken.

Two different scenarios,but I take your point.
The handgun situation is a dying sport being helped along to a early death by the PTB doing its utmost to put a cushion over the dying ones face.:mad: Once CF pistol is gone here,it will be gone for our lifetimes I reckon.Once they are gone this time they are gone.:(

Not really the thread for debating the handgun issue, but a simple SI could change all that if we had a unifiedbody representing us instead of table thumping by individual groups.

Thing is too its a buyers market at the moment and not everyone is buying either.So where people are expecting big money ,be they private or state,they mightnt get it and end up paying storage charges anyway.:D
even selling outside the ROI is a loser.

The thing is if the courts seized the guns, and went to sell them, which they are legally entitiled to do, they don't care about current market value. They don't stand to loose anything on the price they paid as they are seized guns. The person that had them seized looses the guns anyway. So if the courts seize a €3,000 kit they can sell it for €500 if they wish.

Much like a bank repo-ing your car. They sell it onto a car dealer for whatever they can get then come after you for the balance. Only in this case the courts don't come after you for more.

There is a global glut on civvie guns,so much you would be mad to buy a new gun.

Poor timing, i just bought three.

First thing I ever do is ask a GD when I espy a gun that I fancy...Whats its history??Whether it is factual or utter BS is moot as you will see it in the way it was kept.Same as used 2nd hand cars.

On that point, and bearing in mind my comments directly above about the courts sellign price, a dealer may or may not tell you it's provenance, but you can be sure that no matter the price the current market value will be put onto it, and have you met a dealer that ever tried to sell a gun with more than "a couple of boxes gone through it"?

As for storage in barracks ,well you would have to ask a certain poster here who is in employment in the DF about their happiness in storing Irish civillian property for 40 odd years and how much it costs Joe&Jane taxpayer.

The point being that regardless of the people in such barracks there are guns being stored anyway so it's not like they have to set up a new division or department to handle such things. More times than not it's the case where the Gardaí in possession of the gun simply drop it off at a dealers for storage or to be sold. I've seen such guns in storage in a couple of dealers.

As for the rest of your post about the other guns relating to the "temporary" seizure order. Again not really the right thread, but given enough time they will be destroyed because no effort will go into finding the owners (as you said). Some minister will look at it at some point, see the cost, and sign an SI ordering their destruction if the are not claimed within "X" period of time.

robertpatterson · 10-10-2013 11:07PM

I just typed 'deer' into the search engine at the top pf the paper and clicked the link,didnt need to register at all

Grizzly 45 · 13-10-2013 01:00AM

As for appealing of course you can, but putting down that you illegally shot 24 deer will win you no sympathy, nor should it

.

Obviously,but why do we then hear of the same wasters getting their guns back four or five seasons later again??

I'm also not up on my courts but i doubt it'd be high court. The cost would be in the tens of thousands. More likely it's a district court and appeal to either the circuit court. Stand to be corrected there.

It is the High court..Contary to belif and attemped appeals by cheif supers to the Circut court,which has none and never had any function in the firearms laws of Ireland.The act states quite clearly the firearms appeals are a DC matter.As now proven in a HC case regarding the CF pistols this year.
You can appeal a DC decision to the HC for a ruling on the judgement,and yes it is in the tens.

Recheck your sources. That is pure fiction. I actually met the man in that case and the fine was €15,000 of which he had 70% already put away. However the point is well taken.

As I said an aytypcal story,and the details have been exaggerated.Which is nothing unusual for anything in Ireland.Starts as a mouse in Limerick ,is a mammoth by the time it is in Dublin.Glad somone had the right version.

Not really the thread for debating the handgun issue, but a simple SI could change all that if we had a unifiedbody representing us instead of table thumping by individual groups.

Two chances of that.

The thing is if the courts seized the guns, and went to sell them, which they are legally entitiled to do, they don't care about current market value. They don't stand to loose anything on the price they paid as they are seized guns. The person that had them seized looses the guns anyway. So if the courts seize a €3,000 kit they can sell it for €500 if they wish.

Sure they can,but again the point is they will try and get which they must attempt to get under law is market value. And if this is an option why isnt it done more often.Its usually a destruction order.Which BTW you do have to consent to as well.

Poor timing, i just bought three.

OOppsss!:)

On that point, and bearing in mind my comments directly above about the courts sellign price, a dealer may or may not tell you it's provenance, but you can be sure that no matter the price the current market value will be put onto it, and have you met a dealer that ever tried to sell a gun with more than "a couple of boxes gone through it"?

Plenty...None of them in Ireland mind.:D And its like dealing with second hand cars.If it is a rusty POS you are going to look askence at" a few boxes".
Same like the clapped out banger of one lady owner who only went to mass and the shops in it.[Via the Paris Dakar rally route!]

The point being that regardless of the people in such barracks there are guns being stored anyway so it's not like they have to set up a new division or department to handle such things.

As I said the paperwork for those already in state storage is already dicey and lost in some cases[REF Mountbattens pistol] Doubt they want to add to the problems of storing new stuff.

ating to the "temporary" seizure order. Again not really the right thread, but given enough time they will be destroyed because no effort will go into finding the owners (as you said). Some minister will look at it at some point, see the cost, and sign an SI ordering their destruction if the are not claimed within "X" period of time.

Slight problem with a point in constitutional law on that.Same reason the banks cant close dormant accounts and trouser the sum in the account.
So unless we dispose of a point in the Constitution,and a very serious one at that as it will affect everyone and put us closer to a dictatorship re property ownership.They will be in there until judgement day or our firearms laws become more liberal.Which ever comes first.

arrowloopboy · 13-10-2013 09:21AM

As I said before ,a tag system (the same as with Salmon fishing) would sort this out very quickly.

Cass · 13-10-2013 11:51AM

You never commented on the "refused" or "revoked" points i made?

Sure they can,but again the point is they will try and get which they must attempt to get under law is market value.

According to the section of Wildlife Act that deals with seized firearms no such amendment is made to gain market value. Why would it? The gun has been seized and the license revoked therefore the original owner has no say in it, and receives none of the monies from any sale.

And if this is an option why isnt it done more often.

Lack of interest, and an effort to keep the amount of firearms in the country down.. I've been in three dealers in the last year with guns to be destroyed. Most are crap, but there are some really nice old guns, and some newer guns that would raise a few grand if sold, but they are in pieces as no one wants the grief of selling.

Its usually a destruction order.Which BTW you do have to consent to as well

Again how? When your gun is seized, and the license revoked you have lost all ownership of it. As firearm ownership is not a right it can be removed and destroyed or sold. The only onus on the Courts/Gardaí/DoJ is to notify you that it has been done/is being done.

As I said the paperwork for those already in state storage is already dicey and lost in some cases[REF Mountbattens pistol] Doubt they want to add to the problems of storing new stuff.

The thing is these guns, and the aperwork associated to them are not dicey. It's been through a court and all is above board, unlike the current ones stored. So if anything these are easier to store in terms of legality.

Slight problem with a point in constitutional law on that.............................They will be in there until judgement day or our firearms laws become more liberal.Which ever comes first.

Perhaps you can elaborate on this for me as i cannot see where firearm are part of the constitution. The guns were seized under the temporary custody order, a firearms amendment to an act in the form of SI 187/1972 which a minister can sign and enact immediately, and then they were stored.

The original owner can apply for a license now, and have the gun returned. If the original owner is deceased then a relative, with supporting documents of heritage, etc can apply for it. If they refuse or do not want it then the state keeps it, and the person ( i'm sure) would be forced to sign it over to them at which point the gun can be sold or destroyed. As said above the aim of the Gov./Gardaí is to remove firearm not sell them as whenever they have the option it's destruction.

Same with simply destroying them without selling or tracing the owner. The temporary custody order was not a constitutional change, but an amendment to an act via an SI, which means another amendment or SI by a minister can change it. Exactly like the pistols.

So if i'm wrong here please enlighten me.

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man caught with 24 deer in a van

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