man caught with 24 deer in a van

welsummer

I was told today that the Wicklow people has an article on the front cover of someone that was caught in Wicklow with 24 deer in the back of their van. I wasn't able to read it on line, but I found the front cover.
http://wicklowpeople.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

Kells1

Hopefully these guys will get their just medicine

16 bore

I hope they feel the full weight of the law.

Maudi

Irelands very own "bush meat "trade....what sentence will they get?what sentence did that guy from cork who admitted hunting a protected stag get?

The Aussie

Well he is either (a) the worlds best Deer Stalker or (b) a greedy simpleton...

tomcat220t

Here the real question ... what game dealer was involved in such a racket ?
Regards,Tomcat .

Lotharmike

tomcat220t wrote: »

Here the real question ... what game dealer was involved in such a racket ?
Regards,Tomcat .

Thats the real question right there,without a commercial entity to handle that quantity there would be no trade in illegal shooting of protected species.I personally believe all tools used for that illegal activity should be forfeit on detection ie guns ,transport,& any equipment for the purpose of poaching then the courts should kick in along with revenue/ gov dept concerned.

rowa

If this has reached epidemic proportions, and it certainly looks that way, its about time a judge made an example of one of these idiots. They are quick enough to send people to jail for petty crap like not having a television licence.

Cass

Before this runs into another 10 page rant (which it duly deserves) is this recent?

There is a propensity for papers to run old stories when a newer one comes to light or if they decide to so an article on a topic they can use older stories that have log since been forgotten to highlight their story.

Over the last two years i have heard of three separate incidents of trailer loads, and van loads of deer being seized. The most recent was not too far from me, and fair play to the rangers & Gardaí involved, but i have heard this event being recited to me recently as though it only happened.

rowa

Cass wrote: »

Before this runs into another 10 page rant (which it duly deserves) is this recent?

There is a propensity for papers to run old stories when a newer one comes to light or if they decide to so an article on a topic they can use older stories that have log since been forgotten to highlight their story.

Over the last two years i have heard of three separate incidents of trailer loads, and van loads of deer being seized. The most recent was not too far from me, and fair play to the rangers & Gardaí involved, but i have heard this event being recited to me recently as though it only happened.

It says this in the article cass.

"GARDAI HAVE launched a multi faceted crackdown on illegal deer poaching targeting four specific poachers as poaching reaches ‘epidemic proportions’".

So its more about what the gardai are going to do this season. why do these four poachers have rifles ?

Cass

rowa wrote: »

It says this in the article cass

I cannot find the article and the link only shows the opening page. Not too interested in registering to see what one article says.

........... its about time a judge made an example of one of these idiots

why do these four poachers have rifles ?

I agree, but as i've said in other threads it's what they can legally impose. (Bearing in mind i still have no read the article so am not sure on all the specifics such as first offence, etc.)

The fines, and sentences for poaching are pitiful. First offence is between €500 - €1000 and no guarantee of loss of guns, possessions involved. Second offence carries a higher fine, but comes with the same "no guarantee" of loss of possessions.

The only other option left open to judges would be the poor box as a means of imposing a higher than stated fine, but none of the money goes back into the NPWS. If the fines imposed, all of them, were directed back into these groups perhaps it would help finance further patrols. Just spit balling so not sure how possible some ideas would be.

meathstevie

And by next week some other ropey caracter is supplying the same ropey gamedealer whoever he/she is.

16 bore

I was speaking with garda from the south tipp area last week who had already prosecuted two successfully and has two more pending.
The first two had to pay heavy fines and then had there game licences and guns revoked by the fish and wildlife service for the crime of poaching, i believe this happened over two different cases in courtS. He is hoping the next two will face the same.

Cass

16 bore wrote: »

The first two had to pay heavy fines and then had there game licences and guns revoked by the fish and wildlife service for the crime of poaching,.

The NPWS has no authority to revoke a firearms license. As they issue the deer license they can revoke that, but not firearms. They can request/demand it, and the Gardaí can do this this on their behalf however it is not as commonly done as it probably should be.

They do have the authority to seize firearms, but they must be handed in to the nearest/local Garda station within 24 hours of being seized. Failing that they can demand the person follow them to a Garda station to surrender it themselves.

PL05

As i said before they should seize everything that has been used to poach an animal including car/van. Take away the means and theres no access to carry out the crime.

Cass

The NPWS have the authority to do so, but it is not their decision whether it stays gone or not. That is up to the courts.

16 bore

Cass wrote: »

The NPWS has no authority to revoke a firearms license. As they issue the deer license they can revoke that, but not firearms. They can request/demand it, and the Gardaí can do this this on their behalf however it is not as commonly done as it probably should be.

They do have the authority to seize firearms, but they must be handed in to the nearest/local Garda station within 24 hours of being seized. Failing that they can demand the person follow them to a Garda station to surrender it themselves.

Not sure of the details how it all happened but having heard it from the garda involved i would be inclined to believe him.
He also has avid interest in our sport.

Cass

16 bore wrote: »

............ having heard it from the garda involved i would be inclined to believe him.

I don't doubt for a moment that it happened, just not by the NPWS. The guns being revoked that is. They do not have the legal authority to do so.

rowa

If the npws immediately revoke the poachers hunting licence when he is found guilty, then he has no lawful reason to own the rifle and the firearms licence has to be revoked too doesn't it ?

meathstevie

Who exactly seized what isn't important, getting these characters weeded out is what matters.

Means Of Escape

PL05 wrote: »

As i said before they should seize everything that has been used to poach an animal including car/van. Take away the means and theres no access to carry out the crime.

Akin to illegal fishing . Pots nets and impound the boat and jammed with a hefty fine.
Only way and a real cough softener .

Cass

Unless he is a member of a range then he has no "good reason" as opposed to lawful reason.

Either way it is still up to the Gardaí to follow up and revoke the license. The thing is this is usually reserved for repeat offenders. Most do not have their guns revoked or removed and i know of two instances where the guns were given back to them shortly after.

The other aspect of this is what happens the guns. When the license is revoked then they can no longer be in possession of the gun. So they have to surrender them and sell them. This is assuming the guns were not seized in the first place, but have had the license revoked.

The other side is when the guns are seized and then the license is revoked. The gun can be sold by the courts/Gardaí with the monies going to the revenue.

meathstevie wrote: »

Who exactly seized what isn't important, getting these characters weeded out is what matters.

And what happens after they are "weeded out". That not important too?

1shot16

Thats only the lads that are caught could of been vans more full of deer.

And people like this get licences :rolleyes:

Lastin

When there is a market for deer, there will be poachers. If the sale of deer is outlawed the poaching will reduce.

PL05

I would,nt say these sh*theads operate within the season either, probably doing it all year round, f**k me there,ll be no deer left before long.

Cass

Lads,

I've had to remove some copy and pastes of the article from the paper. Minister Sherlock, in his wisdom, declared direct copy and pasting from other sites or forms of media without written permission as a copyright infringement.

This means you need permission from the paper to copy it onto Boards or any other website. If someone wants to e-mail them and get permission then i'll happily put it back up.


Cass.

Grizzly 45

Or simply join The Wicklow People newspaper for a 30 day FREE trial and read the article:)

Grizzly 45

PL05 wrote: »

As i said before they should seize everything that has been used to poach an animal including car/van. Take away the means and theres no access to carry out the crime.

Whilst it sounds good and would satisfy the "vengence gene" in us.It cant be done as
1] It would leave the State open to a possible massive constitutional challange of being deprived of ones property not in accordance with the law as laid out in the Constitution. IOW the law on poaching would have to be changed to include forfiture and seizure of goods as part of the penalties.


2]Laws of forfiture and seizure are NOT a good thing to demand off anyone in power..As our Irish history might have taught us.:eek:

Also is there a definition of "poaching" under Irish law??..As wild game is owner less here[apart from raised game or enclosed game] And poaching is theft of game from someones ownership... How do you lay claim to ownership of the owner less???Just because its on your land isnt proof of ownership ASFIK.

Grizzly 45

The other aspect of this is what happens the guns. When the license is revoked then they can no longer be in possession of the gun. So they have to surrender them and sell them. This is assuming the guns were not seized in the first place, but have had the license revoked.

The other side is when the guns are seized and then the license is revoked. The gun can be sold by the courts/Gardaí with the monies going to the revenue.

Uhmm..Not quite,there is no requirement to sell the guns,they can be put in storage by the hopefully EX poachers until the term of the revocation is over and they can reapply.
Seizure,the better option would be for the Judge to order their destruction which he can do as well.Sends a better message.:)

Selling it isnt a very platable option in most Irish courts as it still has historical overtones and we have still an inbuilt reluctance to purchase seized goods here.Not to mind it is a firearm,and for the amount raised in selling such Vs the expenses of storing ,paperwork etc would the revenue benefit at all??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Also is there a definition of "poaching" under Irish law?

I don't know but there wouldn't need to be one, practically speaking -- if you're poaching you're breaking a host of other laws which have hefty penalties. Trespass, breaking the conditions of your firearms licence, shooting without a deer licence if it's deer, and so on. Enforce the existing laws before writing new ones and all that

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Or simply join The Wicklow People newspaper for a 30 day FREE trial and read the article:)

We can bill them for the extra members.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uhmm..Not quite,there is no requirement to sell the guns,they can be put in storage by the hopefully EX poachers until the term of the revocation is over and they can reapply.

That is very true, but consider this. The next time you re-apply you must declare you had a firearm license revoked. Revocation has no set period of time. It is at the Super's discretion. So how long do you think people would be willing to store a gun especially considering that most dealers are now charging for this? The handgun issue has been going on for nearly 5 years and in that time the majority have sold on their gun even those that were not refused as they cannot be arsed. So if a person has a rifle and kit worth €1,000, €2,000, etc would they think "Better store that" or would they think "sell it, and buy again down the road"?

Playing devil's advocate here.

Seizure,the better option would be for the Judge to order their destruction which he can do as well.Sends a better message.:)

That is already a power at their disposal. Not to sell the seized gun, but for it to bee destroyed.

Selling it isnt a very platable option in most Irish courts as it still has historical overtones and we have still an inbuilt reluctance to purchase seized goods here.Not to mind it is a firearm,and for the amount raised in selling such Vs the expenses of storing ,paperwork etc would the revenue benefit at all??

You would possibly never know it was a seized firearm. As for storage there are thousands of guns stored in barracks, and stations for the last 40+ years so adding the few extra that would come from such cases would not be an issue.

PL05

Sparks wrote: »

I don't know but there wouldn't need to be one, practically speaking -- if you're poaching you're breaking a host of other laws which have hefty penalties. Trespass, breaking the conditions of your firearms licence, shooting without a deer licence if it's deer, and so on. Enforce the existing laws before writing new ones and all that

Was reading article today. it says gardai are targeting four specific poachers, it also says that poachers who hold valid deer hunting and firearms licences are shooting deer at night from public roads using high powered spot lights and rifles. so theres a few more laws broken ie; shooting from a vehicle, discharging a firearm in a public place ie; public road. If this is true and they are licenced then they should be dealt with more severely than your poachers that dont have the paper work, lets face it these twats should know better. Also, they should find out where these animals end up and those bas***ds should be done big time aswell.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

We can bill them for the extra members.

That is very true, but consider this. The next time you re-apply you must declare you had a firearm license revoked. Revocation has no set period of time. It is at the Super's discretion.

This is now where it gets into semantics...Is it refused or revoked?? Two different legal terms that laypeople interchange wrongly.
For example it says on the form have you ever had a firearms liscense refused??Do they now mean in a criminal/ negligent matter or just because the Super want to play at being thick because of a case of "Idonlikedelookodat" itis??
If it is the case of the latter then I have been refused three firearm certs in my lifetime..Not because of any wrongdoing on my part but because of beuracratic outlook.So do I put that down on my next renewal along with the reason.."??".
Even if it is revoked,you still have the right of appeal to the high court for a review,or reapply after the period of revoke that usually is set by the court. Its not a life ban in any shape or form.

So how long do you think people would be willing to store a gun especially considering that most dealers are now charging for this?

Hhmm,well considering the amount some of these boyos are making with harvesting.I would say they could pay for decades if they wanted to.
There was a case apprently in Tipp last year with a game dealer who was fined the max possible.75K or thereabouts ..He had it in cash with him in the court and paid it .Said he would remake it in two months in the season and it is just part of the "busisness expenses.":eek:
Aytpcal story or not I dunno,but I have heard it now from 3 sources .

The handgun issue has been going on for nearly 5 years and in that time the majority have sold on their gun even those that were not refused as they cannot be arsed. So if a person has a rifle and kit worth €1,000, €2,000, etc would they think "Better store that" or would they think "sell it, and buy again down the road"?

Two different scenarios,but I take your point.
The handgun situation is a dying sport being helped along to a early death by the PTB doing its utmost to put a cushion over the dying ones face.:mad: Once CF pistol is gone here,it will be gone for our lifetimes I reckon.Once they are gone this time they are gone.:(

Thing is too its a buyers market at the moment and not everyone is buying either.So where people are expecting big money ,be they private or state,they mightnt get it and end up paying storage charges anyway.:D
even selling outside the ROI is a loser.There is a global glut on civvie guns,so much you would be mad to buy a new gun.

You would possibly never know it was a seized firearm. As for storage there are thousands of guns stored in barracks, and stations for the last 40+ years so adding the few extra that would come from such cases would not be an issue.

First thing I ever do is ask a GD when I espy a gun that I fancy...Whats its history??Whether it is factual or utter BS is moot as you will see it in the way it was kept.Same as used 2nd hand cars.

As for storage in barracks ,well you would have to ask a certain poster here who is in employment in the DF about their happiness in storing Irish civillian property for 40 odd years and how much it costs Joe&Jane taxpayer.

The big trouble with this tempoary custody order was no one in power ever gave any thought as to what would happen when the troubles ended in NI,win lose or draw.Or what would happen if the owners of said guns ,died,forgot about it,lost the paperwork,emigrated ,or whatever...As well as some of the paperwork going "missing" over the years as well in the Army /Garda sections of responsibility.

The Irish govt is now in a situation like the banks with dormant bank accounts.Cant close them as someone just might show up,cant junk them for the same reason .It is still Irish taxpayers property.Too tight to employ a person or group to track down the next of kin or owners and ask them would they like Gran paw's civil war mauser or a cash price for it??
So adding a few extra that are for auction wen the DF are trying to get the stuff out of their stores isnt likely either.Plus whats the betting that unless you were in certain circles,you would never hear of these items for sale???

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is now where it gets into semantics...Is it refused or revoked?? Two different legal terms that laypeople interchange wrongly.

There are no semantics, and "laypeople" can read the FCA1 as well as the next "expert". It asks on section 2.4 (paraphrasing each question):

• Have you ever been found guilty or have charges pending?
• Have you ever been the subject of a court order relating to threatening behaviour?
• Have you ever had a firearm application refused?
• Have you ever had a firearm license revoked?

So not semantics it's plain black and white. Either case demands an explanation and i'm not talking about refusals, and don't believed i mentioned it, as the issue is about revocation of licenses and seizure of guns.

For example it says on the form have you ever had a firearms liscense refused??Do they now mean in a criminal/ negligent matter or just because the Super want to play at being thick because of a case of "Idonlikedelookodat" itis??

It means have you applied for a firearms license and been refused. AT ALL. EVER. A refusal, for whatever grounds, is a refusal.

If it is the case of the latter then I have been refused three firearm certs in my lifetime..Not because of any wrongdoing on my part but because of beuracratic outlook.So do I put that down on my next renewal along with the reason.."??".

Yes. Failing to do so is a fraudulent application.

Even if it is revoked,you still have the right of appeal to the high court for a review,or reapply after the period of revoke that usually is set by the court. Its not a life ban in any shape or form.

Never said it was a life ban, i only said there are not set time frames for such revocations. Also if the license is revoked by the Gardaí, and not the courts then it's at the Super's discretion.

As for appealing of course you can, but putting down that you illegally shot 24 deer will win you no sympathy, nor should it.

I'm also not up on my courts but i doubt it'd be high court. The cost would be in the tens of thousands. More likely it's a district court and appeal to either the circuit court. Stand to be corrected there.

Hhmm,well considering the amount some of these boyos are making with harvesting.I would say they could pay for decades if they wanted to.
There was a case apprently in Tipp last year with a game dealer who was fined the max possible.75K or thereabouts ..He had it in cash with him in the court and paid it .Said he would remake it in two months in the season and it is just part of the "busisness expenses.":eek:
Aytpcal story or not I dunno,but I have heard it now from 3 sources .

Recheck your sources. That is pure fiction. I actually met the man in that case and the fine was €9,500 of which he paid straight away. However the point is well taken.

Two different scenarios,but I take your point.
The handgun situation is a dying sport being helped along to a early death by the PTB doing its utmost to put a cushion over the dying ones face.:mad: Once CF pistol is gone here,it will be gone for our lifetimes I reckon.Once they are gone this time they are gone.:(

Not really the thread for debating the handgun issue, but a simple SI could change all that if we had a unifiedbody representing us instead of table thumping by individual groups.

Thing is too its a buyers market at the moment and not everyone is buying either.So where people are expecting big money ,be they private or state,they mightnt get it and end up paying storage charges anyway.:D
even selling outside the ROI is a loser.

The thing is if the courts seized the guns, and went to sell them, which they are legally entitiled to do, they don't care about current market value. They don't stand to loose anything on the price they paid as they are seized guns. The person that had them seized looses the guns anyway. So if the courts seize a €3,000 kit they can sell it for €500 if they wish.

Much like a bank repo-ing your car. They sell it onto a car dealer for whatever they can get then come after you for the balance. Only in this case the courts don't come after you for more.

There is a global glut on civvie guns,so much you would be mad to buy a new gun.

Poor timing, i just bought three.

First thing I ever do is ask a GD when I espy a gun that I fancy...Whats its history??Whether it is factual or utter BS is moot as you will see it in the way it was kept.Same as used 2nd hand cars.

On that point, and bearing in mind my comments directly above about the courts sellign price, a dealer may or may not tell you it's provenance, but you can be sure that no matter the price the current market value will be put onto it, and have you met a dealer that ever tried to sell a gun with more than "a couple of boxes gone through it"?

As for storage in barracks ,well you would have to ask a certain poster here who is in employment in the DF about their happiness in storing Irish civillian property for 40 odd years and how much it costs Joe&Jane taxpayer.

The point being that regardless of the people in such barracks there are guns being stored anyway so it's not like they have to set up a new division or department to handle such things. More times than not it's the case where the Gardaí in possession of the gun simply drop it off at a dealers for storage or to be sold. I've seen such guns in storage in a couple of dealers.

As for the rest of your post about the other guns relating to the "temporary" seizure order. Again not really the right thread, but given enough time they will be destroyed because no effort will go into finding the owners (as you said). Some minister will look at it at some point, see the cost, and sign an SI ordering their destruction if the are not claimed within "X" period of time.

robertpatterson

I just typed 'deer' into the search engine at the top pf the paper and clicked the link,didnt need to register at all

Grizzly 45

As for appealing of course you can, but putting down that you illegally shot 24 deer will win you no sympathy, nor should it

.

Obviously,but why do we then hear of the same wasters getting their guns back four or five seasons later again??

I'm also not up on my courts but i doubt it'd be high court. The cost would be in the tens of thousands. More likely it's a district court and appeal to either the circuit court. Stand to be corrected there.

It is the High court..Contary to belif and attemped appeals by cheif supers to the Circut court,which has none and never had any function in the firearms laws of Ireland.The act states quite clearly the firearms appeals are a DC matter.As now proven in a HC case regarding the CF pistols this year.
You can appeal a DC decision to the HC for a ruling on the judgement,and yes it is in the tens.

Recheck your sources. That is pure fiction. I actually met the man in that case and the fine was €15,000 of which he had 70% already put away. However the point is well taken.

As I said an aytypcal story,and the details have been exaggerated.Which is nothing unusual for anything in Ireland.Starts as a mouse in Limerick ,is a mammoth by the time it is in Dublin.Glad somone had the right version.

Not really the thread for debating the handgun issue, but a simple SI could change all that if we had a unifiedbody representing us instead of table thumping by individual groups.

Two chances of that.

The thing is if the courts seized the guns, and went to sell them, which they are legally entitiled to do, they don't care about current market value. They don't stand to loose anything on the price they paid as they are seized guns. The person that had them seized looses the guns anyway. So if the courts seize a €3,000 kit they can sell it for €500 if they wish.

Sure they can,but again the point is they will try and get which they must attempt to get under law is market value. And if this is an option why isnt it done more often.Its usually a destruction order.Which BTW you do have to consent to as well.

Poor timing, i just bought three.

OOppsss!:)

On that point, and bearing in mind my comments directly above about the courts sellign price, a dealer may or may not tell you it's provenance, but you can be sure that no matter the price the current market value will be put onto it, and have you met a dealer that ever tried to sell a gun with more than "a couple of boxes gone through it"?

Plenty...None of them in Ireland mind.:D And its like dealing with second hand cars.If it is a rusty POS you are going to look askence at" a few boxes".
Same like the clapped out banger of one lady owner who only went to mass and the shops in it.[Via the Paris Dakar rally route!]

The point being that regardless of the people in such barracks there are guns being stored anyway so it's not like they have to set up a new division or department to handle such things.

As I said the paperwork for those already in state storage is already dicey and lost in some cases[REF Mountbattens pistol] Doubt they want to add to the problems of storing new stuff.

ating to the "temporary" seizure order. Again not really the right thread, but given enough time they will be destroyed because no effort will go into finding the owners (as you said). Some minister will look at it at some point, see the cost, and sign an SI ordering their destruction if the are not claimed within "X" period of time.

Slight problem with a point in constitutional law on that.Same reason the banks cant close dormant accounts and trouser the sum in the account.
So unless we dispose of a point in the Constitution,and a very serious one at that as it will affect everyone and put us closer to a dictatorship re property ownership.They will be in there until judgement day or our firearms laws become more liberal.Which ever comes first.

arrowloopboy

As I said before ,a tag system (the same as with Salmon fishing) would sort this out very quickly.

Cass

You never commented on the "refused" or "revoked" points i made?

Sure they can,but again the point is they will try and get which they must attempt to get under law is market value.

According to the section of Wildlife Act that deals with seized firearms no such amendment is made to gain market value. Why would it? The gun has been seized and the license revoked therefore the original owner has no say in it, and receives none of the monies from any sale.

And if this is an option why isnt it done more often.

Lack of interest, and an effort to keep the amount of firearms in the country down.. I've been in three dealers in the last year with guns to be destroyed. Most are crap, but there are some really nice old guns, and some newer guns that would raise a few grand if sold, but they are in pieces as no one wants the grief of selling.

Its usually a destruction order.Which BTW you do have to consent to as well

Again how? When your gun is seized, and the license revoked you have lost all ownership of it. As firearm ownership is not a right it can be removed and destroyed or sold. The only onus on the Courts/Gardaí/DoJ is to notify you that it has been done/is being done.

As I said the paperwork for those already in state storage is already dicey and lost in some cases[REF Mountbattens pistol] Doubt they want to add to the problems of storing new stuff.

The thing is these guns, and the aperwork associated to them are not dicey. It's been through a court and all is above board, unlike the current ones stored. So if anything these are easier to store in terms of legality.

Slight problem with a point in constitutional law on that.............................They will be in there until judgement day or our firearms laws become more liberal.Which ever comes first.

Perhaps you can elaborate on this for me as i cannot see where firearm are part of the constitution. The guns were seized under the temporary custody order, a firearms amendment to an act in the form of SI 187/1972 which a minister can sign and enact immediately, and then they were stored.

The original owner can apply for a license now, and have the gun returned. If the original owner is deceased then a relative, with supporting documents of heritage, etc can apply for it. If they refuse or do not want it then the state keeps it, and the person ( i'm sure) would be forced to sign it over to them at which point the gun can be sold or destroyed. As said above the aim of the Gov./Gardaí is to remove firearm not sell them as whenever they have the option it's destruction.

Same with simply destroying them without selling or tracing the owner. The temporary custody order was not a constitutional change, but an amendment to an act via an SI, which means another amendment or SI by a minister can change it. Exactly like the pistols.

So if i'm wrong here please enlighten me.