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Gerry Adams to run for President ?

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    #272
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It is.


    Irish citizens in America can't vote in our elections. That's the point, remember?

    I asked in answer to your question, 'What constituency are Americans abroad in?' To which you replied 'None, that's why they can't vote'.
    I think you are confused,

    All residents of the Republic of Ireland (I know technically it's not called that but it eases confusion) have the right to vote. Citizenship on it's own is not enough, you have to be a resident citizen.

    Yes, at the moment that is the case, the proposal would be to change that.


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    #273
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I asked in answer to your question, 'What constituency are Americans abroad in?' To which you replied 'None, that's why they can't vote'.
    I think you are confused,
    I was talking about Irish citizens voting in foreign countries. You're the one who brought up America as if our systems of government are in any way similar.
    Yes, at the moment that is the case, the proposal would be to change that.
    Well at least we can agree on what we're arguing about. That's always a nice start.


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    #274
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    All residents of the Republic of Ireland (I know technically it's not called that but it eases confusion) have the right to vote. Citizenship on it's own is not enough, you have to be a resident citizen.

    TCD & NUI graduates who are Irish citizens living outside the RoI using a postal vote, can vote in the Seanad election to elect candidates to the university panel of that body. If a certain class of Irish citizen who aren't living here can vote to elect representatives to one of our parliamentary bodies, why can't other Irish citizens who are also not living here do the same?


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    #275
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    TCD & NUI graduates who are Irish citizens living outside the RoI using a postal vote, can vote in the Seanad election to elect candidates to the university panel of that body. If a certain class of Irish citizen who aren't living here can vote to elect representatives to one of our parliamentary bodies, why can't other Irish citizens who are also not living here do the same?
    You're right, let's ban Seanad postal votes.


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    #276
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I was talking about Irish citizens voting in foreign countries. You're the one who brought up America as if our systems of government are in any way similar.

    :rolleyes: You said 'They (people in NI) don't have a constituency to vote in'
    I asked 'What constituency are Americans abroad in?'



    Well at least we can agree on what we're arguing about. That's always a nice start.
    You are talking about logistics, I am talking about the right to vote.


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    #277
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're right, let's ban Seanad postal votes.

    So for those non-resident Irish citizens who can elect Seanad members, what form of voting would you replace it with?


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    #278
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    :rolleyes: You said 'They (people in NI) don't have a constituency to vote in'
    I asked 'What constituency are Americans abroad in?'
    America is not relevant to the discussion at all.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You are talking about logistics, I am talking about the right to vote.
    What part of "All residents of the Republic of Ireland have the right to vote. Citizenship on it's own is not enough, you have to be a resident citizen" mentions logistics?
    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    So for those non-resident Irish citizens who can elect Seanad members, what form of voting would you replace it with?
    None. If they're not resident they can't vote.


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    #279
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    None. If they're not resident they can't vote.

    So you would disenfranchise them without their consent?


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    #280
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    So you would disenfranchise them without their consent?
    They're not being disenfranchised. They still have the right to vote.


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    #281
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They're not being disenfranchised. They still have the right to vote.

    And how will they do that then, since you've taken away their postal vote?


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    #282
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    And how will they do that then, since you've taken away their postal vote?
    They'll have to either travel back to the home sod to cast their vote or don't. Just like Dáil elections.


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    #283
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They'll have to either travel back to the home sod to cast their vote or don't. Just like Dáil elections.

    How can they do this? Their permanent home address is outside the jurisdiction. Your requirement that they have to be a resident here to vote here is a form of disenfranchisment for these voters.


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    #284
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    How can they do this? Their permanent home address is outside the jurisdiction. Your requirement that they have to be a resident here to vote here is a form of disenfranchisment for these voters.
    I really don't see the problem here. Anyone who has left the country for more then 18 months does so with the knowledge and understanding they will not be able to vote in our elections.


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    #285
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I really don't see the problem here. Anyone who has left the country for more then 18 months does so with the knowledge and understanding they will not be able to vote in our elections.

    Except the class of voters I already mentioned. I think there's a problem tbf. Either all non-resident Irish citizens have a vote (say to the Seanad or for the Presidency) or none have it. It's strange don't you think that some have this right, while others don't? I personally think they should have a vote. Proposed Seanad reform mentions this I believe.


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    #286
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Except the class of voters I already mentioned. I think there's a problem tbf. Either all non-resident Irish citizens have a vote (say to the Seanad or for the Presidency) or none have it. It's strange don't you think that some have this right, while others don't? I personally think they should have a vote. Proposed Seanad reform mentions this I believe.
    All Irish citizens do have a vote. Unless they are not permanent residents in this country. Then their right to vote should be forfeit.


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    #287
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    All Irish citizens do have a vote. Unless they are not permanent residents in this country. Then their right to vote should be forfeit.

    And there is where i disagree.


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    #288
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    America is not relevant to the discussion at all.

    Of course it is relevant to the logistics of voting and to those that object because it can not be organised.

    What part of "All residents of the Republic of Ireland have the right to vote. Citizenship on it's own is not enough, you have to be a resident citizen" mentions logistics?


    None. If they're not resident they can't vote.

    And which bit of 'that is what the proposal will seek to change' do you not understand?

    Given that we can overcome the logistical hurdle and we vote to change the constitution I am assuming you have no further objections.
    I don't have time for this silly circular argument you are having fun with.


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    #289
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    . The point is the enfranchisement of all people who see themselves as citizens. Logistics can come later.

    This is ludicrous.

    I like France, the climate, the culture, the films, the people. I see myself as a citizen of France. Does that give me the right to vote?


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    #290
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    So you would disenfranchise them without their consent?

    We are not disenfranchising them.

    They still have the right to vote so long as they are resident. That is their choice.


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    #291
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Of course it is relevant to the logistics of voting and to those that object because it can not be organised.
    Again with the straw man. Nobody has said that it can't be done; I've made the point that it can't be done without damaging the integrity of the electoral process, and that that's a tradeoff I'm not willing to make.

    You can claim that it's not a tradeoff you're willing to make either, because you're introducing magical thinking to the discussion: it suits you to believe that remote voting can be conducted securely, therefore it can be conducted securely. No evidence, no reasoning, no logic other than "I believe this, therefore it's true."

    The best you've been able to do is to point to the fact that other countries have postal voting, which is a lazy cop-out. Sure, the US allows its citizens to vote by post: so what? Are you seriously going to hold the US up as a model of how to hold elections?

    I'll ask you the same question I've asked Mr C: do you actually understand why we hold elections the way we do?


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    #292
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    This is ludicrous.

    I like France, the climate, the culture, the films, the people. I see myself as a citizen of France. Does that give me the right to vote?

    Again you are in denial about N.I. being a special case. You are in denial that it is a failed state in limbo and in a process, a process governed by the unique GFA. That alone makes it different to any comparisons to France or any other country you want to use. A cosignatory to that deal is a state which has a constitutional and recognised(by the British) aspiration to unity. Unity the British will have no objection to when the majority vote for it. The British will not imo have any objections to that growing majority having a vote in the south's presidential elections, as it has no implications for them, so basically it is a decision to be made by us, the people of the south.
    Oscar Bravo keeps on about electoral integrity ignoring the fact that no method has full integrity. (Is 30% turnout a referendum with integrity? I would have to say no, but nothing would ever get done if we didn't compromise in some way)


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    #293
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Again you are in denial about N.I. being a special case. You are in denial that it is a failed state in limbo and in a process, a process governed by the unique GFA. That alone makes it different to any comparisons to France or any other country you want to use. A cosignatory to that deal is a state which has a constitutional and recognised(by the British) aspiration to unity. Unity the British will have no objection to when the majority vote for it. The British will not imo have any objections to that growing majority having a vote in the south's presidential elections, as it has no implications for them, so basically it is a decision to be made by us, the people of the south.
    Oscar Bravo keeps on about electoral integrity ignoring the fact that no method has full integrity. (Is 30% turnout a referendum with integrity? I would have to say no, but nothing would ever get done if we didn't compromise in some way)

    Sorry, as repeatedly pointed out it is only IRA apologists and SF supporters who see NI as a special case.

    The Constitution gives equal weight and balance to those who gain citizenship by being born in Northern Ireland and those who gain citizenship by being born abroad to Irish parents.

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the GFA, the constitution, the legislation in Britain or elsewhere that suggests everybody thinks the people of the North should have a vote in the Presidential election.

    Just because one person dreams that the words mean something else doesn't make it true.


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    #294
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the GFA, the constitution, the legislation in Britain or elsewhere that suggests everybody thinks the people of the North should have a vote in the Presidential election.

    Just because one person dreams that the words mean something else doesn't make it true.

    That is what the proposal will attempt to change in the constitution....it's really simple, have you read any of the stuff from the Constitutional Convention at all?:rolleyes:


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    #295
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Godge wrote: »
    We are not disenfranchising them.

    They still have the right to vote so long as they are resident. That is their choice.

    If you want to enforce the residency rule on all types of Seanad voter, some of them that currently have this right to vote will be deprived of it, i.e. disenfranchised.

    Democracy Matters is in favour of broadening the number of those eligable to vote in Seanad elections, including Irish citizens resident in NI and elsewhere.


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    #296
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That is what the proposal will attempt to change in the constitution....it's really simple, have you read any of the stuff from the Constitutional Convention at all?:rolleyes:


    Anyone can propose to change anything in the Constitution. A mere proposal doesn't change what the Constitution or the GFA currently saying.

    But you are going around claiming that the GFA, the Constitution and the various other agreements envisage a change when the truth is the opposite.

    I have no problem with you making any fairytale amendments you wish but to then claim that these fairytale amendments have support from the GFA is the bit I have trouble with.


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    #297
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Anyone can propose to change anything in the Constitution. A mere proposal doesn't change what the Constitution or the GFA currently saying.

    But you are going around claiming that the GFA, the Constitution and the various other agreements envisage a change when the truth is the opposite.

    I have no problem with you making any fairytale amendments you wish but to then claim that these fairytale amendments have support from the GFA is the bit I have trouble with.

    Are you seriously suggesting that this would be on the table without the GFA being in place?

    In the event of it happening, what, if any, would be the objections of Unionists?


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    #298
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Oscar Bravo keeps on about electoral integrity ignoring the fact that no method has full integrity.
    I'm not ignoring that fact. I've addressed that point explicitly. You pretending I haven't said something isn't the same thing as me ignoring it.

    I'll say it again, so you can ignore me saying it again, and look even sillier next time you try to claim I've ignored it: you don't have to believe a system is perfect in order not to want to see it made any worse.


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    #299
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that this would be on the table without the GFA being in place?

    In the event of it happening, what, if any, would be the objections of Unionists?


    There is not a snowball's chance in hell of this getting to the ballot paper for a referendum.


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    #300
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Godge wrote: »
    There is not a snowball's chance in hell of this getting to the ballot paper for a referendum.

    From another thread:
    Even before the Seanad poll, however, there was doubt in Government circles about the merits and feasibility of the convention’s proposals to lower the voting age to 16 and expand the franchise in presidential elections to citizens living abroad.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-says-seanad-reform-is-on-the-agenda-1.1552321


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    #301
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    From another thread:
    Even before the Seanad poll, however, there was doubt in Government circles about the merits and feasibility of the convention’s proposals to lower the voting age to 16 and expand the franchise in presidential elections to citizens living abroad.


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-says-seanad-reform-is-on-the-agenda-1.1552321

    Is that the government with it's finger on the pulse of the nation and what it wants?


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