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Gerry Adams to run for President ?

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    #362
    Manassas61
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭Manassas61


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Peter Robinson recently accused a fellow Unionist of selling land to Tea eggs as if it was terrible thing people should be ashamed. Ruth Patterson in the past complained about an attack on someone by asking why it was done seeing as the victim wasnt a Catholic or a member of an ethnic minority. The DUP also shared platforms with Billy Wright and attacked the UVF for trying to shut him up and stop his maddness at the time.
    Gerry Adams carried Thomas Begley coffin. Its a nonsense argument to use when discussing the political ideology of the DUP and the policies they believe in.

    Its now 2013 and not the 1990s.


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    #363
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    Gerry Adams carried Thomas Begley coffin. Its a nonsense argument to use when discussing the political ideology of the DUP and the policies they believe in.

    Its now 2013 and not the 1990s.

    The thing about selling the land was THIS year.

    They have been standing on platforms with the UVF in Belfast which has been acting up THIS year.

    If anything they are not getting better they are getting worse.

    The Provies dont have anything to do with the "Dissidents" and have condemned in the strongest possible terms.


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    #364
    Manassas61
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭Manassas61


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The thing about selling the land was THIS year.

    They have been standing on platforms with the UVF in Belfast which has been acting up THIS year.

    If anything they are not getting better they are getting worse.

    The Provies dont have anything to do with the "Dissidents" and have condemned in the strongest possible terms.
    When did the DUP sit on stage with the "UVF" this year? If you are talking about the 90s, then just say so.

    Go look up the policies of the DUP and what they believe. Anyway, I think this thread is running out of fuel now and I have discussed pretty much most things related to it.


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    #365
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    When did the DUP sit on stage with the "UVF" this year? If you are talking about the 90s, then just say so.

    Go look up the policies of the DUP and what they believe. Anyway, I think this thread is running out of fuel now and I have discussed pretty much most things related to it.

    Uh....Do you read the newspapers? What exactly was happening at Twaddle just recently or during the fleg protests?


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    #366
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Why have "Peace Walls" doubled since the GFA if the "Peace Process" is such a success and Northern Ireland is no longer a failed state?
    May I ask how the "full intergration into the 26 counties" (?) of Northern Ireland would do anything to solve this problem?


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    #367
    Manassas61
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭Manassas61


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Uh....Do you read the newspapers? What exactly was happening at Twaddle just recently or during the fleg protests?
    The twaddle protesters are in the "UVF"? Sounds like myth spreading.


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    #368
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    May I ask how the "full intergration into the 26 counties" (?) of Northern Ireland would do anything to solve this problem?

    Because it greatly weaken the grounds for tribal politics by intergrating it a larger and saner unit and allow for a genuine civic conciousness to emerge.


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    #369
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    The twaddle protesters are in the "UVF"? Sounds like myth spreading.

    Oh my who do you think Winkie Ervine is?


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    #370
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because it greatly weaken the grounds for tribal politics by intergrating it a larger and saner unit and allow for a genuine civic conciousness to emerge.
    It was part of an even larger and saner unit during direct rule and look how that ended.


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    #371
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It was part of an even larger and saner unit during direct rule and look how that ended.

    London doesnt give a damn about Ulster- they are only interested in it in terms of the port in Derry. That is it. Plastic bullets are happily used to Northern Ireland but not used on the mainland even during very serious riots.

    Also the UK is the process of if not breaking up than decentralizing.

    The only option that Northern Ireland has is to dissolve itself and have direct Dublin rule.


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    #372
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because it greatly weaken the grounds for tribal politics by intergrating it a larger and saner unit and allow for a genuine civic conciousness to emerge.
    But what do you mean my integration? Will you be demanding that the tribes come down South so that us partitionists can teach them how to be be sane?


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    #373
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    But what do you mean my integration? Will you be demanding that the tribes come down South so that us partitionists can teach them how to be be sane?

    By full intergration I mean no "regional assembly" or special opt outs.


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    #374
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It was part of an even larger and saner unit during direct rule and look how that ended.

    Northern Ireland during the period of direct rule was not fully intergrated into the mainland UK. Things went on than that just wouldnt have been acceptable at all on the UK mainland. That was a point I was trying to make to Fred.


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    #375
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    London doesnt give a damn about Ulster- they are only interested in it in terms of the port in Derry. That is it. Plastic bullets are happily used to Northern Ireland but not used on the mainland even during very serious riots.
    You couldn't be more wrong. The UK is very much interested in Northern Ireland. They need it to help keep the ideal of Unionism alive within Britain. The elites in Britain have a lot of interest vested in Northern Ireland and they won't let it go easily.
    Also the UK is the process of if not breaking up than decentralizing.
    The union is on the verge of a landmark democratic boost once the Scottish independence referendum is defeated by a landslide.
    The only option that Northern Ireland has is to dissolve itself and have direct Dublin rule.
    Not true. They have loads of other options.
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Northern Ireland during the period of direct rule was not fully intergrated into the mainland UK. Things went on than that just wouldnt have been acceptable at all on the UK mainland. That was a point I was trying to make to Fred.
    It's special policing needs were taken into account but it's not fair to alienate NI from the rest of the UK because of it. If you do that the terrorists have won.


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    #376
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    By full intergration I mean no "regional assembly" or special opt outs.
    Yes, but how does that do anything to solve the problems that gave rise to the need for peace lines?


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    #377
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's special policing needs were taken into account but it's not fair to alienate NI from the rest of the UK because of it. If you do that the terrorists have won.

    Im not talking about just policing mate (and if sorry Plastic Bullets kill and torture is utterly immoral as well as often ineffective in its aims)- the anti-discrimination measures that protected British blacks and Asians on the mainland UK were not brought in to protect Northern Irish Catholics because they didnt want to annoy Loyalist bigots.


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    #378
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Im not talking about just policing mate (and if sorry Plastic Bullets kill and torture is utterly immoral as well as often ineffective in its aims)- the anti-discrimination measures that protected British blacks and Asians on the mainland UK were not brought in to protect Northern Irish Catholics because they didnt want to annoy Loyalist bigots.
    You also have to remember that Asians and Blacks were not seen as a threat to the state. I'm sorry if this offends you but that's how it went down.


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    #379
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    Yes, but how does that do anything to solve the problems that gave rise to the need for peace lines?

    Because it would allow for the emergence of a genuine civic conciousness and so dissolve the tribalism on which the Peace Lines are built on. A tribalism shameless encouraged by Tories such as Randolph Churchill and Edward Carson who were not even from Ulster to ensure their objectives. A tribalism also shamelessly used to destroy any union of working class people to improve their mutual standards of living.


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    #380
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You also have to remember that Asians and Blacks were not seen as a threat to the state. I'm sorry if this offends you but that's how it went down.

    The state was a threat to itself- if the British government had not let Northern Ireland be utterly piosoned by the first Stormount regime there would not have been the troubles.


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    #381
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You couldn't be more wrong. The UK is very much interested in Northern Ireland. They need it to help keep the ideal of Unionism alive within Britain. The elites in Britain have a lot of interest vested in Northern Ireland and they won't let it go easily.

    I fear you are correct here- but my point still stands that they dont care about the actual people of Northern Ireland, or if they do they care about them much less than they do the people of the UK mainland.


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    #382
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because it would allow for the emergence of a genuine civic conciousness and so dissolve the tribalism on which the Peace Lines are built on.
    So you have said. Twice! I am asking you how will this happen? What are the mechanics of it likely to be?

    I can certainly understand that you might hope this would happen, but can you give any kind of logical reason why you think it would?


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    #383
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    So you have said. Twice! I am asking you how will this happen? What are the mechanics of it likely to be?

    I can certainly understand that you might hope this would happen, but can you give any kind of logical reason why you think it would?

    Because people would be forced to partake of politics that transcend their own nonsense.


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    #384
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because people would be forced to partake of politics that transcend their own nonsense.
    I feel an infinite regress coming on! How will they be forced to partake of nonsense-free politics?

    If they don't even have a local assembly anymore, surely they are more likely to become more apolitical to national politics and focus all the more on their local squabbles?


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    #385
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because people would be forced to partake of politics that transcend their own nonsense.

    And some would have to ask themselves 'what is the point, and more importantly, the cost, of agitating for generations to come'. Pragmatism would be the order of the day once it is obvious there is no threat to peaceful inclusive diverse cultural traditions.


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    #386
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    I feel an infinite regress coming on! How will they be forced to partake of nonsense-free politics?

    If they don't even have a local assembly anymore, surely they are more likely to become more apolitical to national politics and focus all the more on their local squabbles?

    No because the national politics of this small nation would obviously effect everyone in the six counties and local government has very little power in the Free State/Republic of Ireland/26 counties (which in general I think is to be deplored however in the case of the 6 counties...).


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    #387
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No because the national politics of this small nation would obviously effect everyone in the six counties and local government has very little power in the Free State/Republic of Ireland/26 counties (which in general I think is to be deplored however in the case of the 6 counties...).
    I have no idea what this means but it doesn't answer my question.

    The peace lines were / are necessary because some individuals in the two communities have an irrational distrust / loathing for those in the other community. How does your proposed political solution, or any political solution for that matter, change this kind of mindset?


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    #388
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    I have no idea what this means but it doesn't answer my question.

    The peace lines were / are necessary because some individuals in the two communities have an irrational distrust / loathing for those in the other community. How does your proposed political solution, or any political solution for that matter, change this kind of mindset?

    Okay because it would replace a tribal based politics with a civic based politics.

    The distrust/loathing is not as irrational as it seems at first- the fleg riots were as much about feeling that more of the limited resources were going to "themuns" as about the flag itself.

    The six counties also needs a strong bill of rights to secure civil liberties as well as full employment (a moral duty for every state to insure with the price of hellfire in the next life if they dont at least make a serious effort in that direction).


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    #389
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Okay because it would replace a tribal based politics with a civic based politics.

    The distrust/loathing is not as irrational as it seems at first- the fleg riots were as much about feeling that more of the limited resources were going to "themuns" as about the flag itself.

    The six counties also needs a strong bill of rights to secure civil liberties as well as full employment (a moral duty for every state to insure with the price of hellfire in the next life if they dont at least make a serious effort in that direction).
    Hmmm. I fear some of you might be in for a smidgen of disappointment if and when a united Ireland ever comes to pass. :)


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    #390
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    Hmmm. I fear some of you might be in for a smidgen of disappointment if and when a united Ireland ever comes to pass. :)

    Oh Im well aware of the disdain that Leinster House holds the idea of civil liberties-I know all about the Special Criminal Courts and the Offenses Against the State Act. I also know that it is effectively an oligarchy. That said even under present conditions Northern Ireland dissolving itself into would be a very big step forward on the road to getting the six counties healed.

    Majority rule by the DUP would see the slaughter back in no time.


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    #391
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    Hmmm. I fear some of you might be in for a smidgen of disappointment if and when a united Ireland ever comes to pass. :)


    Could it be anymore 'disappointing' than the failure that is N.I.?


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