Why can nobody speak Irish?

Carlos Orange · 25-08-2013 07:42PM

An Coilean wrote: »

What are you talking about? Parents are not allowed to want more for their children than they had themselves all of a sudden?

I must admit when I read that I did indeed LOL.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2013 07:43PM

Aineoil wrote: »

You missed my point. To learn any language immersion is the only way forward.

It's very clear that a great deal of people don't want to learn Irish. I've no problem with that.

Ah, apologies - I thought you were talking on a national level - oops!

Can you not immerse kids by sending them to a Gaelgior school? at least to good conversational level?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:44PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ah, apologies - I thought you were talking on a national level - oops!

Can you not immerse kids by sending them to a Gaelgior school? at least to good conversational level?

The waiting lists are massive to get in from what I hear...

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 07:50PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Every parent decides what language(s) their children will speak

I think that this is the succinct answer to the question put by the OP in post no.1.

It would be a great step forward if all Irish enthusiasts would have the same insight as you do.

Well done.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2013 07:52PM

irishfeen wrote: »

The waiting lists are massive to get in from what I hear...

All the more reason to promote extra-curricular activites i would have thought.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:55PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

All the more reason to promote extra-curricular activites i would have thought.

Do you mean in Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:00PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Come here mate we would be sending the kids to the Gaeltacht, not New York city... As I said it would be only transition year students so whats that less then 60,000 over 9 months throughout the many Gaeltacht around the county... it could be done without any problem with investment in current infrastructure.

How to collect money off the diaspora? ... anyway we want.. there is millions of Irish/other among the diaspora who would pay to become fluent in the language that their past generation spoke.

Involve the unions from the start!, I think you are not picking me up right... I think a change in how it is taught (through conversation) is the problem not necessarily the teachers... I'm sure any primary school teacher would be totally capable of changing their teaching methods from the written side to the conversation side... we aren't changing the bloody language just our approach to it.

Transition year students? Well ignoring the fact you would have to make transition year mandatory let's do the sums on that, there are approx 330,000 students currently enrolled in second level education. Source.

330,000/6 = 55,000 approx transition year students. Let's be conservative and say 15,000 non transition year students are sent by their parents on the same year that gives us 70,000 students in the gaeltacht.

But in 2008 only 25,633 students went to the gaeltacht. Source. So it's clear wide scale and expensive upgrading of the gaeltacht's infrastructure would be necessary to facilitate this huge increase in the number of students.

Now let's think about cost, a two week trip to Colaiste Lurgan (assuming the government takes the cheap option) is €680. Source. Take 55,000*€680 = €37,400,000. Assume economies of scale reduction to 35 million. 35 million to send children to the gaeltact. And that's an annual fee, every year, without taking into consideration the costs to upgrade and maintain facilities.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:02PM

An Coilean wrote: »

What are you talking about? Parents are not allowed to want more for their children than they had themselves all of a sudden?

Every parent decides what language(s) their children will speak, second language immersion schools give parents the opportunity to give their children a language that they themselves do not have. If we were talking about any language in the world other than Irish, the idea that the parents are 'forcing' the second language on the child would not come into it for a second.

To be honest comments like yours above suggest you have more than a small chip on your shoulder.

There is absolutely no reason why parents can't learn the language later in life. No reason at all. The fact they don't tells us they are not interested in the language or do not consider it important enough to learn. Parents with that attitude have no moral right to force their children to learn Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2013 08:09PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Do you mean in Irish?

Yeah, pretty much. I always felt that any disussion about how to improve Irish in the classroom is a waste of time - Irish should be out of the classroom if you want it to flourish.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:11PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Transition year students? Well ignoring the fact you would have to make transition year mandatory let's do the sums on that, there are approx 330,000 students currently enrolled in second level education. Source.

330,000/6 = 55,000 approx transition year students. Let's be conservative and say 15,000 non transition year students are sent by their parents on the same year that gives us 70,000 students in the gaeltacht.

But in 2008 only 25,633 students went to the gaeltacht. Source. So it's clear wide scale and expensive upgrading of the gaeltacht's infrastructure would be necessary to facilitate this huge increase in the number of students.

Now let's think about cost, a two week trip to Colaiste Lurgan (assuming the government takes the cheap option) is €680. Source. Take 55,000*€680 = €37,400,000. Assume economies of scale reduction to 35 million. 35 million to send children to the gaeltact. And that's an annual fee, every year, without taking into consideration the costs to upgrade and maintain facilities.

Say all in 60 million/PA to ensure the language re-establishes itself and thrives ... Just think of the waste going on in government where hundreds of millions are wasted... I think that would be a very acceptable and worthy place to spend the money.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:13PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yeah, pretty much. I always felt that any disussion about how to improve Irish in the classroom is a waste of time - Irish should be out of the classroom if you want it to flourish.

Yeah another good idea.. set up Irish groups around the country to re-energise/teach the language .. I think its a combination off all our ideas which would help the Irish language in 2013.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:16PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Say all in 60 million/PA to ensure the language re-establishes itself and thrives ... Just think of the waste going on in government where hundreds of millions are wasted... I think that would be a very acceptable and worthy place to spend the money.

This would be extra money, on top of what the government does anyway. And let's not fool ourselves. Students are not going to become fluent over two weeks.

An Coilean · 25-08-2013 08:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason why parents can't learn the language later in life. No reason at all. The fact they don't tells us they are not interested in the language or do not consider it important enough to learn. Parents with that attitude have no moral right to force their children to learn Irish.

Dont be daft, learning a language can be an expencive and time consuming process.

For parents who have to work, mind children and in many cases stay awake at night worrying about their morgatage, learning a language, any language is simply not a luxury they can afford.
Even though they are not in a position to learn it themselves, that many parents wish their children to learn it shows beyond question that they do place an importance on it.

You are trying to make the argument that unless the parents are in a position to learn Irish themselves, then the kids cant. That is just petty and in a way elitist.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:27PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Dont be daft, learning a language can be an expencive and time consuming process.

For parents who have to work, mind children and in many cases stay awake at night worrying about their morgatage, learning a language, any language is simply not a luxury they can afford.

It's a luxury their children can't afford either. If the parents wanted to learn it they would make time.

An Coilean wrote: »

Even though they are not in a position to learn it themselves, that many parents wish their children to learn it shows beyond question that they do place an importance on it.

They pay lip service but the fact they don't learn it shows they don't really place importance on it beyond lip service. Irish is fine as long as someone else learns it. Even if someone else is their own children.

An Coilean wrote: »

You are trying to make the argument that unless the parents are in a position to learn Irish themselves, then the kids cant. That is just petty and in a way elitist.

It's an arguement that the parents don't really care for Irish beyond meaningless lip service.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:32PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This would be extra money, on top of what the government does anyway. And let's not fool ourselves. Students are not going to become fluent over two weeks.

But in the grand scheme of things the money would be insignificant and i'm sure there would be money available in Europe for such an initiative... its either we do something or nothing and I for one would bare the cost of improving the teaching of Irish... I didn't for once say they would become fluent in two weeks but it would immerse them into the language in a way with their friends and colleagues in a manner that would be modern and fun... the sooner we put an end to reading Irish out of a book and it being bate into people the better.

musicfan1ie · 25-08-2013 08:37PM

There needs to be specialist Irish teachers at primary school and secondary school. They need to be fluent and they need to teach it like a foreign language - no English spoken in class. I studied Italian in Italy with teachers who didn't have much English and I understood what they meant.

Getting primary / secondary school teachers who aren't fluent or good at teaching languages is counter productive. I got a B2 in honours French and a D3 in ordinary level Irish. All teacher related as I was so bored of the monotonous crap they thought in my school for Irish.

focus should be on conversational Irish. If you have this, grammar and spelling can come later

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:38PM

irishfeen wrote: »

But in the grand scheme of things the money would be insignificant and i'm sure there would be money available in Europe for such an initiative... its either we do something or nothing and I for one would bare the cost of improving the teaching of Irish... I didn't for once say they would become fluent in two weeks but it would immerse them into the language in a way with their friends and colleagues in a manner that would be modern and fun... the sooner we put an end to reading Irish out of a book and it being bate into people the better.

You would do it but you must understand asking the government for 35 million per annum to send every transition year student in the country to the gaeltacht is a no go. It just won't happen.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:39PM

musicfan1ie wrote: »

There needs to be specialist Irish teachers at primary school and secondary school. They need to be fluent and they need to teach it like a foreign language - no English spoken in class. I studied Italian in Italy with teachers who didn't have much English and I understood what they meant.

Getting primary / secondary school teachers who aren't fluent or good at teaching languages is counter productive. I got a B2 in honours French and a D3 in ordinary level Irish. All teacher related as I was so bored of the monotonous crap they thought in my school for Irish.

focus should be on conversational Irish. If you have this, grammar and spelling can come later

I think we can all be in agreement with that...

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You would do it but you must understand asking the government for 35 million per annum to send every transition year student in the country to the gaeltacht is a no go. It just won't happen.

When I come to power

... It would be the government coming up with this idea not being told what to do, the government must ensure Irish is not lost as part of what we are.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 08:44PM

irishfeen wrote: »

When I come to power ... It would be the government coming up with this idea not being told what to do, the government must ensure Irish is not lost as part of what we are.

lol well unless you became Taoiseach it would be your idea, not the governments. Why must the government ensure the Irish language is not lost? Why place the onus on them?

Surely the duty of preserving the Irish language is with the Irish people and if the Irish people decide to speak English well then...

An Coilean · 25-08-2013 08:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's a luxury their children can't afford either.

? Meaningless soundbyte by the looks of it.

If the parents wanted to learn it they would make time.

Your comming across as out of touch with reality at this stage, again, many parents are simply not in a position to devote the money, time and energy required for learning a language.

They pay lip service but the fact they don't learn it shows they don't really place importance on it beyond lip service. Irish is fine as long as someone else learns it. Even if someone else is their own children.

Lip service? More meaningless soundbytes.

That many parents want their children to learn the language, even though they never did themselves is a strong indicator that they place importance on learning the language.

It's an arguement that the parents don't really care of Irish beyond meaningless lip service.

Your argument is nothing more than a few unsupported assertions.

Again, I fail to see how wanting something for your children that you dont have = meaningless lip service.

I would suggest that if we were talking about non-French speaking parents wanting their children to have French, the idea that those parents are forcing French on their children, or are merely paying some sort of 'lip service' to French would not only not come up as an argument, but would appear ludicrous if it did.
That you are using such an argument in relation to Irish really just speaks to the aformentioned chip on your shoulder when it comes to the language.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol well unless you became Taoiseach it would be your idea, not the governments. Why must the government ensure the Irish language is not lost? Why place the onus on them?

Surely the duty of preserving the Irish language is with the Irish people and if the Irish people decide to speak English well then...

It is their responsibly until they/us change the wording of our constitution... they have the responsibility to teach our first language in a manner which befits themselves, the country and future generations.

I will never be in government or Taoiseach but I certainly would like to give the language ever chance possible.. I think the ideas I/others on here have would work very well.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 08:52PM

irishfeen wrote: »

When I come to power ... It would be the government coming up with this idea not being told what to do, the government must ensure Irish is not lost as part of what we are.

Perhaps you will announce a 'cultural revolution' and the sending people to the Gaeltacht for re-education?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 08:54PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Perhaps you will announce a 'cultural revolution' and the sending people to the Gaeltacht for re-education?

A revolution in how the language is taught to kids anyway

..

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 09:08PM

An Coilean wrote: »

? Meaningless soundbyte by the looks of it.

The children would benefit much more learning a major European language like Spanish or French.

An Coilean wrote: »

Your comming across as out of touch with reality at this stage, again, many parents are simply not in a position to devote the money, time and energy required for learning a language.

Time can always be made, if they weren't busy watching Emmerdale or the X factor they might have more time.

An Coilean wrote: »

Lip service? More meaningless soundbytes.

Lip service as in "I think the Irish language is an important and essential facet of our national character" spoken entirely in English. Even this debate is in English. What's duckspeak in Irish?

That many parents want their children to learn the language, even though they never did themselves is a strong indicator that they place importance on learning the language.

It's a strong indicator they support the promotion of the language as long as someone else speaks it.

Again, I fail to see how wanting something for your children that you dont have = meaningless lip service.

It's not, paying lip service to the language is paying lip service to it. And at the moment adults are voting with their tongue. i mBearla. No matter how much that tongue professes to love the language it's meaningless unless they start speaking it.

I would suggest that if we were talking about non-French speaking parents wanting their children to have French, the idea that those parents are forcing French on their children, or are merely paying some sort of 'lip service' to French would not only not come up as an argument, but would appear ludicrous if it did.

French is an important international business language. France is a major European nation and the Francophone world spans the globe from Africa the Americas and Asia. It's utility is infinitely greater then Irish to us. And it would píss off perfidious Albion.
No one is putting forth the idea of state led forced education in the French language.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 09:26PM

irishfeen wrote: »

A revolution in how the language is taught to kids anyway ..

A waste of time and money unless you get the whole country to engage in a 'Great Leap Forward', restoring Irish as common language of Ireland.

Simply changing the way Irish is taught will make zero difference to how Irish is used.

If you want Irish spoken widely, them you must change Irish society.

JosephDoyleIre · 25-08-2013 09:48PM

Would I be right in saying that in Wales, or some other English-speaking countries with another native language, they greet you in Welsh/other traditional language when you enter a shop, and if you answer in Welsh, you have a conversation in Welsh, and if you answer in English, they have a conversation in English??

Surely this is our problem in Ireland - no value is placed on it because nobody is speaking it. Nobody is speaking it because nobody knows it. Nobody knows it because they didn't learn it as kids. Kids aren't learning it because nobody is speaking it (and, as said, nobody is speaking it because, ultimately, they didn't learn it as kids.) Catch 22.

Surely this problem would suggest that the most productive solution would be for everyone to use the cúpla focail when they can? Now, I know that a lot of people are afraid of the grammar and often can't put together a sentence, but almost all Irish people know how to say "Dia Duit." "Dia is Muire duit." and "conas atá tú?" "tá mé go maith." I think that it would be no harm to start using this small bit of Irish when you can. The attitude towards the language needs to be changed.

A good start to that would be to promote the language - especially making it cool among young people. There are people doing this already (has anyone seen the Coláiste Lurgan videos on YouTube? Avicii shared their cover of Wake Me Up on Facebook, and it has 1.3 million views or something like that.)

So, if we can convince young people and everyone else that the language is cool and easy to use, and everyone starts using the cúpla focail atá acu, I'm not saying it will solve the problem by any means, but it's a damn good place to start.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 09:57PM

JosephDoyleIre wrote: »

So, if we can convince young people and everyone else that the language is cool and easy to use, and everyone starts using the cúpla focail atá acu, I'm not saying it will solve the problem by any means, but it's a damn good place to start.

The language isn't easy to use though and what you're essentially promoting here is pidgin Irish. What use is that?

Krusader · 25-08-2013 10:07PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The language isn't easy to use though and what you're essentially promoting here is pidgin Irish. What use is that?

Pidgin irish is better than no irish

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 10:16PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Pidgin irish is better than no irish

Pidgin Irish is worse then fluent English. Pidgin is fine for greetings and farewell but if a speaker wished to delve into the higher echelons on human thought they would be forced to revert to English. What effect do you think that would have on people's attitudes to the language?

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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