Why can nobody speak Irish?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:14PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You seem to ignore the wishes of the students and their parents, don't they count?

Would it be too distressing for you to take on board the possibility that a great many people in Ireland, actually yhe majority of our population, don't wish to speak Irish?

But i told you that if I was minister for Education tomorrow morning I would end Irish being compulsory for the leaving, if after the JC they wish to discontinue learning the language then that would be completely fine and at least they would have been given the chance to learn the language that generations before conversed in for centuries.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The plan I laid out would be impossible to implement and it's the only one I could see working because it involves compulsion. Given the choice the general population will never choose to speak Irish, you have to force them and the easiest way to do that is ensure their standard of English is not sufficient for professional capacity. Hence why I gave the deadline as 2075.

Under your plan children will just choose to converse in their native language over Irish and there is nothing politically minded adults or teachers could do to stop them.

Oh there would be no problem in conversing in English outside the classroom - English has to be learnt too... I'm talking about inside the classroom and who knows some kids may have a grasp for Irish and use it among themselves.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 06:19PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Oh there would be no problem in conversing in English outside the classroom - English has to be learnt too... I'm talking about inside the classroom and who knows some kids may have a grasp for Irish and use it among themselves.

Learning Irish inside the classroom is not sufficient to make the child fluent.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Learning Irish inside the classroom is not sufficient to make the child fluent.

It would be imo if the focus was taken away from writing the language to conversing the language between baby infants and 6th year but as you say increasing being taught completely in Irish would be significantly better.. possibly being taught in Irish/English 50-50 would also be an option in primary schools as primary school teachers are required to have competent Irish in anycase.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 06:33PM

irishfeen wrote: »

It would be imo if the focus was taken away from writing the language to conversing the language between baby infants and 6th year but as you say increasing being taught completely in Irish would be significantly better.. possibly being taught in Irish/English 50-50 would also be an option in primary schools as primary school teachers are required to have competent Irish in anycase.

I don't think so, I think the only way a child can be made fluent is through total immersion. I'm not even sure total immersion in the classroom, i.e total immersion between 9:00 and 15:30 would be sufficient.

I also think you'd have to fight a lot of push back from the teacher's union as you'd be making their job a lot harder.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 06:37PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You seem to ignore the wishes of the students and their parents, don't they count?

Would it be too distressing for you to take on board the possibility that a great many people in Ireland, actually the majority of our population, don't wish to speak Irish?

Of course the wishes of the parents count. That's why most Gaelscoileanna have waiting lists, some parents want their children to learn Irish, for whatever reason (that's another thread).

The wishes of students, that's a tough one.

Most children in the Republic of Ireland start school between the ages of four and five. Can a child so young make a choice like that? I don't think so. If you allowed that most children would choose to play all day. Then every subject would suffer.

Now with regards to secondary school, I agree there should be a choice. I don't find it distressing at all for a student not to want to pursue Irish as a subject, it makes sense. If it's not your forte, that's fine. But if it is your forte, that's ok too.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't think so, I think the only way a child can be made fluent is through total immersion. I'm not even sure total immersion in the classroom, i.e total immersion between 9:00 and 15:30 would be sufficient.

I also think you'd have to fight a lot of push back from the teacher's union as you'd be making their job a lot harder.

To be honest I don't really agree there are many many people who start say German in first year and by the time they leave secondary say 5 years later are very good and could converse (I know it wouldn't be total fluency) with a person from Germany.

Same goes for a Spanish friend of mine who studied English with us last year.. when he came he was taught in school and could hold a good conversation with us no problem... but honestly after 1 month he was almost completely fluent. That's why I would include trips to the Gaeltacht for everyone studying Irish and for them to be immersed in the language for a period of time.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 06:47PM

irishfeen wrote: »

To be honest I don't really agree there are many many people who start say German in first year and by the time they leave secondary say 5 years later are very good and could converse (I know it wouldn't be total fluency) with a person from Germany.

Same goes for a Spanish friend of mine who studied English with us last year.. when he came he was taught in school and could hold a good conversation with us no problem... but honestly after 1 month he was almost completely fluent. That's why I would include trips to the Gaeltacht for everyone studying Irish and for them to be immersed in the language for a period of time.

If you want to restore Irish as the main language of the country fluency will be required and the only real way to attain fluency is through immersion. That's why I believe all primary and secondary schools, not to mention colleges in the long run, would need to be made Irish speaking. You mention trips to the gaeltacht for all students but who would pay for this? Facilities in the gaeltacht would need to be hugely upgraded to support a nationwide migration of young people every year.

Also you didn't answer my point about push back from teacher's unions, how would you address this?

marketty · 25-08-2013 06:50PM

13 years of Irish language 'education' and I can't follow one verse of those Lurgan videos, cool as they are.
Managed to fumble my way through a 10 minute conversation with 2 French tourists recently and I only studied that language for 3 years. I'm no edumacationalist but that ain't right

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 06:50PM

irishfeen wrote: »

That's why I would include trips to the Gaeltacht for everyone studying Irish and for them to be immersed in the language for a period of time.

I totally agree about immersion. It's the only way forward. But it's not going to happen in schools where the first language is English.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:57PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you want to restore Irish as the main language of the country fluency will be required and the only real way to attain fluency is through immersion. That's why I believe all primary and secondary schools, not to mention colleges in the long run, would need to be made Irish speaking. You mention trips to the gaeltacht for all students but who would pay for this? Facilities in the gaeltacht would need to be hugely upgraded to support a nationwide migration of young people every year.

Also you didn't answer my point about push back from teacher's unions, how would you address this?

Government to pay for it of course ... but I would try recouping money from the Irish diaspora who I think would love to come an learn the language in the Gaeltacht... I actually think it would be a wonderful way to spend taxpayers money - teaching the youth to enjoy our language.

As for the unions? ... why do you think they would have a major problem with anything I am suggesting?... graduates going to the Gaeltacht for say a year/6 months before teaching Irish would be meant as a way of them becoming part of a team to ensure Irish surviving not as a strict test on themselves.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 06:57PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Of course the wishes of the parents count. That's why most Gaelscoileanna have waiting lists, some parents want their children to learn Irish, for whatever reason (that's another thread).

Your logic here is not very clear. What do you mean?

You're still assuming that the 'problem' of children not speaking Irish will be solved by a different form of compulsion at schools. Ignoring completely that if the child and its parents decide to speak English in their normal life outside of school, they almost certainly fail to become fluent in Irish.

The 'problem' of children not speaking Irish will never be solved until the Irish language lobby understands that the majority of the population don't want to speak Irish.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 06:59PM

marketty wrote: »

13 years of Irish language 'education' and I can't follow one verse of those Lurgan videos, cool as they are.
Managed to fumble my way through a 10 minute conversation with 2 French tourists recently and I only studied that language for 3 years. I'm no edumacationalist but that ain't right

Great post! I wouldn't be too worried about not understanding the Lurgan videos.

The Irish is a little funny, and the pronunciation is strange too, but it's great to see young people having fun. Fair play to them.

Mind you they are translating songs from English to Irish. If it doesn't make sense in English.........

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:00PM

Aineoil wrote: »

I totally agree about immersion. It's the only way forward. But it's not going to happen in schools where the first language is English.

I would make trips to the Gaeltacht for a period of time compulsory for every secondary school in the state... these children could learn more in two weeks with friends and colleagues in the Gaeltacht then a year in the classroom through the medium on conversation and ultimately fun... no reading out of a book but conversing in total immersion.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:03PM

marketty wrote: »

13 years of Irish language 'education' and I can't follow one verse of those Lurgan videos, cool as they are.
Managed to fumble my way through a 10 minute conversation with 2 French tourists recently and I only studied that language for 3 years. I'm no edumacationalist but that ain't right

I'm the same, and its embarrassing... I despised the language in school because it was boring being read out of the book and I was sick of old Irish stories and how to structure a letter/post card home to Aunty Mary .... that's why I know its being taught wrong too.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 07:06PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Your logic here is not very clear. What do you mean?

You're still assuming that the 'problem' of children not speaking Irish will be solved by a different form of compulsion at schools. Ignoring completely that if the child and its parents decide to speak English in their normal life outside of school, they almost certainly fail to become fluent in Irish.

The 'problem' of children not speaking Irish will never be solved until the Irish language lobby understands that the majority of the population don't want to speak Irish.

What?

Who fails to become fluent - the parents or the child?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2013 07:09PM

Aineoil wrote: »

I totally agree about immersion. It's the only way forward. But it's not going to happen in schools where the first language is English.

When you use the words "immersion" and "forward" you're still under the mistaken assumption that this is a nation that wants to speak Irish as a first langauge.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 07:12PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

When you use the words "immersion" and "forward" you're still under the mistaken assumption that this is a nation that wants to speak Irish as a first langauge.

You missed my point. To learn any language immersion is the only way forward.

It's very clear that a great deal of people don't want to learn Irish. I've no problem with that.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:13PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

When you use the words "immersion" and "forward" you're still under the mistaken assumption that this is a nation that wants to speak Irish as a first langauge.

I actually think most people would hate to see the language of past generations die out in less then a few generations.... I think if you asked parents sending their child to baby infants on the first day whether they would like the little lad/girl to be fluent in both languages in 13 years time then I think the vast majority would agree.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:14PM

Aineoil wrote: »

You missed my point. To learn any language immersion is the only way forward.

It's very clear that a great deal of people don't want to learn Irish. I've no problem with that.

Would you agree there is as many if not more that decry the fact that they could never grasp the language/the decline of the language?

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 07:18PM

irishfeen wrote: »

I actually think most people would hate to see the language of past generations die out in less then a few generations.... I think if you asked parents sending their child to baby infants on the first day whether they would like the little lad/girl to be fluent in both languages in 13 years time then I think the vast majority would agree.

I had this conversation about 17 years ago with a group of people. They wanted their (future children) lad/girl to speak both languages too. When I pointed out to them that this was not a real option......they literally devoured me.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 07:21PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Government to pay for it of course ... but I would try recouping money from the Irish diaspora who I think would love to come an learn the language in the Gaeltacht... I actually think it would be a wonderful way to spend taxpayers money - teaching the youth to enjoy our language.

As for the unions? ... why do you think they would have a major problem with anything I am suggesting?... graduates going to the Gaeltacht for say a year/6 months before teaching Irish would be meant as a way of them becoming part of a team to ensure Irish surviving not as a strict test on themselves.

Where would the government get the money for this? We can barely afford to run the schools as they are, how can we afford to send every child in the country to the gaeltacht? Also facilities in the gaeltacht would need to be upgraded to deal with the increased numbers, who will pay for that?

You mention tipping into the diaspora but who is going to give us money, how are we going to collect it and how are we going to collect enoguh money to send every child to the gaeltacht? I know your heart is in the right place and no disrespect but you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

As for the Unions you can expect major push back from existing teachers as you are in effect making their jobs x10 times harder for no extra pay, in fact school facilities will likely have to be cut back to pay for the annual exodus to the west.

With parents wanting their children to be fluent in both languages, sure, they say yes. Why wouldn't they? Giving an extra language to a child has no downside but ask those parents if they would pay for their child to go to Irish lessons outside school or shock horror, pay for it themselves and watch their enthusiasm plummet.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 07:22PM

irishfeen wrote: »

I think if you asked parents sending their child to baby infants on the first day whether they would like the little lad/girl to be fluent in both languages in 13 years time then I think the vast majority would agree.

You really think so? Do you have any evidence?

More to the point, if you told those parents that in order for this to happen the parents themselves would have to learn Irish immediately and speak it to their children every day of their lives for 50% of the time and that they would have to listen to TNaG every morning and watch Irish-language programs on TnAG every evening: would they agree?

An Coilean · 25-08-2013 07:28PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

If you told those parents that in order for this to happen the parents themselves would have to learn Irish immediately and speak it to their children every day of their lives for 50% of the time and that they would have to listen to TNaG every morning and watch Irish-language programs on TnAG every evening: would they agree?

Maybe not, but the bigger question is why would you lie to them like this?

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 07:30PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Maybe not, but the bigger question is why would you lie to them like this?

If Mary and Samuel couldn't be bothered to learn Irish they have no moral right to force little Jeremiah to do it.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 07:32PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Would you agree there is as many if not more that decry the fact that they could never grasp the language/the decline of the language?

It's not an easy language to learn. The grammar is complicated.
Then again people have certain aptitudes.

I suppose it's how you learn a language. For me a language is like a song - you hear the tune first and then the words.

There are the purist who imho destroy the language for people. If you are corrected all the time for grammar etc, that's a pain.

On a positive note

Coláiste Lurgan

agus

Tá a lán daoine óga amuigh ansin agus tá neart Gaeilge acu

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:33PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where would the government get the money for this? We can barely afford to run the schools as they are, how can we afford to send every child in the country to the gaeltacht? Also facilities in the gaeltacht would need to be upgraded to deal with the increased numbers, who will pay for that?

You mention tipping into the diaspora but who is going to give us money, how are we going to collect it and how are we going to collect enoguh money to send every child to the gaeltacht? I know your heart is in the right place and no disrespect but you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

As for the Unions you can expect major push back from existing teachers as you are in effect making their jobs x10 times harder for no extra pay, in fact school facilities will likely have to be cut back to pay for the annual exodus to the west.

With parents wanting their children to be fluent in both languages, sure, they say yes. Why wouldn't they? Giving an extra language to a child has no downside but ask those parents if they would pay for their child to go to Irish lessons outside school or shock horror, pay for it themselves and watch their enthusiasm plummet.

Come here mate we would be sending the kids to the Gaeltacht, not New York city... As I said it would be only transition year students so whats that less then 60,000 over 9 months throughout the many Gaeltacht around the county... it could be done without any problem with investment in current infrastructure.

How to collect money off the diaspora? ... anyway we want.. there is millions of Irish/other among the diaspora who would pay to become fluent in the language that their past generation spoke.

Involve the unions from the start!, I think you are not picking me up right... I think a change in how it is taught (through conversation) is the problem not necessarily the teachers... I'm sure any primary school teacher would be totally capable of changing their teaching methods from the written side to the conversation side... we aren't changing the bloody language just our approach to it.

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 07:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Mary and Samuel couldn't be bothered to learn Irish they have no moral right to force little Jeremiah to do it.

It happens

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 07:35PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You really think so? Do you have any evidence?

Yes I do think so and no I don't have evidence but gut instinct on the issue.

An Coilean · 25-08-2013 07:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Mary and Samuel couldn't be bothered to learn Irish they have no moral right to force little Jeremiah to do it.

What are you talking about? Parents are not allowed to want more for their children than they had themselves all of a sudden?

Every parent decides what language(s) their children will speak, second language immersion schools give parents the opportunity to give their children a language that they themselves do not have. If we were talking about any language in the world other than Irish, the idea that the parents are 'forcing' the second language on the child would not come into it for a second.

To be honest comments like yours above suggest you have more than a small chip on your shoulder.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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