Why can nobody speak Irish?

The_Gatsby

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

Nemeses

Cen Fath?

Garzard

For me personally it was because Irish has no relevance in this day and age, coupled with the fact that it was a always taught terribly and a dull subject. Having it compulsory also made me resent it hugely - I never wanted to learn it from the start.

CruelCoin

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

Firstly, there is no real "Irish". There is sligo/donegal/galway irish, and your teacher(s) can teach you one or many dialects and you can be examined in another.

Secondly, the vast majority of the teaching is crammed down your neck in the form of rote learning. Language is best learned by example and context. Children by and large do not learn to speak english by being forced to memorize and regurgitate.

Thirdly, as a nation, we suck at all languages.
It's not just irish, it's french/german etc. Why this is i couldn't tell you.

And then there is the question of relevance. From the get-go, i knew the language was a dying one.
Useless in a county where a tiny minority speak it, useless in business, useless in trade, useless to anybody other than preening culture whores.
As such, in school i gave it the bare minimum of my attention and focused more on maths, the sciences, etc, where what you learn may actually be useful.

jill_valentine

It's a combination of it being taught really badly, in a way that makes it seem very remote from day to day practical use; being difficult, by virtue of how badly it's taught and thus having no "fun" associations whatsoever; and being irrelevant to the modern world. It's not particularly attractive to the ear either, IMHO. So really, personally, I had no incentive to learn it at all. I left it down after my Leaving Cert and never even considered picking it back up.

Saaron

I can speak Irish fluently, but only since I move to the Gaeltacht when I was about 10, otherwise I probably would have ended up like everyone else in my family who struggled with learning Irish.

keeponhurling

Language can only really be learned properly in an environment that uses it for day-to-day things. So with Irish most people don't have that.

I find the generally only cases where people speak a 2nd language fluently is if they have spent time in that country, or have a parent from that country so became accustomed to using it every day at home.

A lesser reason is that Irish is split into different dialects, and that the grammar is extremely complicated.

Conway635

Let me tell you about how I was taught Irish.

One teacher, a very elderly priest, used every class to lecture us on 800 years of British opression, including giving us details of how (he said) British soilders would disembowel pregnant irish girls and force them to eat their babies before leaving them to bleed to death.

This was every class. We would get about 5 minutes of teaching before something would start him off on the evils of the British.

Another teacher, when we were older, was a fairly savage discplinarian, and, quite literally, tried to beat the language into us.

Neither approach gave me a fondness for Irish.

C635

Banjo String

Wabbit Ears

yep, Its not taught as a used language but as something that must be learned by heart to preserve it, which is mega ironic as it does the exact opposite.

Now if anyone tried to actually have it taught as a living language the pro-irish language goons would be up in arms, why? who the fcuk knows, but they would be.

Greenmachine

For me personally there was zero motivation to learn it. Neither of my parents had any interest in the language. There are other minor language in europe. Finnish and Estonian being example being spoken by native speakers as a first language. The problem in Ireland instance is that Irish as a language have shifted vastly to a second language for the great majority of people. There are very limited circumstance where learning the language would be an advantage to people.

I think a european language should be taught in primary school from an early age. Irish should not be pushed upon people. It is unfortunate really, but in part it would appear to be down to the fact that the language did not undergo standardization like other llanguages had. This would appear to have made it easier to have caused the shift to english under english rule.

I think for parents who want their children to learn Irish there should be more gael schools. I think put Irish language resource into those who are motivated to learn it would be more effective in preserving the language.

r3nu4l

I hated the language in school, despised it as a language without relevance. Then 20 years later I had a wide circle of friends and colleaguesfrom Greece, France, Austria, Iran and India and anytime the Irish language came up in conversation they would talk about how beautiful and pleasing the language was to the ear and how it was such a shame that Irish people neglected the language. They could understand that it wasn't a language of business and that outiside of our island it would be irrelevant but they still ALL felt that it was a great pity that Irish people didn't make more of an effort with the language.

Funnily enough, most of these people could speak at least 3 languages, some up to seven! Not so long ago my wife was at a conference where she met a Dane, living and working in the US who had heard Irish on YouTube and decided to look for classes in San Diego. He is now fluent and his 8 year old is fluent and his 2 year old is learning Irish too. He even gave my wife a copy of a children's story in Irish (Coco, the friendly swordfish!). We read it to our daughter at night

Matt_Trakker

The_Gatsby wrote: »

most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

_Kaiser_

Never had to learn it myself. My mother simply took the approach of "he's not wasting his time learning a dead language" and then after spending a few years in Holland, when we came back I had an official Dept exemption.

Just as a side note, my classmates in Holland (primary level) could all speak at LEAST 2 languages.. Dutch, English (TV there was mostly US or UK in English with Dutch subtitles) and in many cases another 1 or 2 as well (basically there were then - mid 80s - where we are now in terms of multi-cultural/national schools).

Never had to do Religion either as mam had the view that that should be a choice for someone to make, not simply have it pushed on young children by the local parish.

We'd be a lot better teaching kids European languages at primary level (when it's easiest to pick-up) than continuing to waste time and money on propping up a practically dead language and belief system of an organisation that only this week has stuck 2 fingers up to the women and people it's spent decades abusing by refusing to pay compensation to them.

It makes even less sense to keep pushing these "subjects" on kids given the above mentioned influx of non-nationals with their own language, culture and belief systems. If you want your child to learn Irish or be taught the Catholic (or any religious) doctrine then teach them yourself, send them to summer schools and mass or whatever, but don't expect a room of 30 other kids to suffer through it as well.

But no doubt all the Irish lobbyists and good Catholics will be along shortly to tell us how it's part of our culture and heritage and thriving (in gaeltacht areas) etc...

WindSock

More people have heard Dothraki being spoken than they have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish combined.

December2012

When was the last time you titrated something? The last time you used algebra knowingly? Transposed from a major into a minor chord? Quoted Shakespeare, Keats, Joyce?

Education is not just about the subject, it's about learning and training the mind.

Learning a language, any language has many benefits. Firstly it's the language skill, secondly it's communication skills, thinking about sentence structure and phrasing, but the main thing is lateral thinking.

People who learn a second language learn it through living it. Children don't care about making a mistake, so they keep learning without shame or embarrassment, eg my daughter knows that the round bouncy thing is a liathróid or a ball. That's lateral thought.

A very high emphasis is placed on the impracticality of Irish but most if our school subjects for most people are impractical for the workplace, unless you're in academics / education.

School education is only a foundation for us to base the rest of our learning on.

No big deal in my opinion, but then I'm interested in the science of learning a d education.

_Kaiser_

WindSock wrote: »

More people have heard Dothraki being spoken than they have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish combined.

Or Klingon

ITDept

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

In fairness, the majority of Europeans wouldn't be to the East of Poland. The former Soviet states do have a lower take-up of English but there are still plenty of people there who do speak it perfectly well.

As a (terrible, murdering, female-disembowelling, oppressor) Brit with Irish kids in Irish schools, I can say that in those schools it's taught very well. They use complete immersion in the language, including at break times, and make it fun to learn using competitions and small prizes etc. I would be much happier if it was a school where the main language was one of the primary European ones but it is a good school and a good approach so I have to accept what's on offer.

The main issue as far as I see it is a lack of joined-up thinking here. When my eldest reaches secondary school age, there isn't one available. We then face a choice of bussing them to a town miles away - passing by several nearer secondary schools taught in English and going against the green values we're trying to promote, or sending them to one of the aforementioned local secondary schools and watching their knowledge of Irish wilt.

kiffer

Kids like learning irish at first... it starts off with some basic vocabulary and they enjoy that learning new names for objects and actions... but very soon two things hit and a double whammy effect totally knocks out any interest in learning it... one is social stigma, (it's a dead language, it's for boggers, it's too hard, getting out of doing irish is a win) the other is the fact it's so badly taught.

I know a lot of people that got to 5th year before they found out that nouns have genders in irish... yes they knew that some words took an "i" and somr did not but everyone just thought that was some random rule like alk the others.
Then in 5th year you get it wrong for the millionth time and an exasperated teacher says "agh blah is feminine it takes an 'i' how are you guys not getting this?" and class sits there going "there are masculine and feminie nouns in irish" ... I've heard the exact same story from people in pass and honours classes.
I remember asking when I was in primary how you knew which ones take an "i" and which don't and being told that you jusr have to memorize it by rote there is not logic to it. I think at the start they think English speaking kids can't handle the idea of words having genders and then when they obviously can while learning other languages the secondary level teachers assume a lot of stuff is common knowledge.

Forcing small kids to memorize those bloody conjugated prepositions takes all the fun out of it.

Badly Drunk Boy

WindSock wrote: »

More people have heard Dothraki being spoken than they have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish combined.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Or Klingon

And do they use them daily? Or weekly? Or ever?

WindSock

Immersion is the only way to go, really. Having a lesson a day does sweet fck all for most people. The only time I truly used Irish and noticed my own improvement was when I once went to the Gaelteact.

WindSock

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

And do they use them daily? Or weekly? Or ever?

Use what now?

Speisekarte

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

Of course it's the way it's taught. It's retarded how we teach Irish.

the government should ask Benny the Irish polyglot how they should teach Irish.

He has a fantastic website called fluent in three months.

oldyouth

I couldn't get on with any Irish teacher I ever had. It was assumed that there would be someone at home who had Irish and could assist me with my homework. When I pointed out that this was not the case and I needed additional help, I was sneered at and comments were often made about my heritage. I fell too far behind in primary school to ever catch up

To cut a long story short, I wouldn't let that slide and this led to me being granted permission to absent myself from all Irish classes from 3rd year onwards

Gotta love the Christian Brothers...

awec

If the standard of Irish is to improve then it should become an optional subject and left to those with the interest and enthusiasm to learn it.

Forcing people in to it drags the standard of those who do want to learn it down.

the_syco

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

yep, Its not taught as a used language but as something that must be learned by heart to preserve it, which is mega ironic as it does the exact opposite.

This.

Also, it's quite a new language. The famine all but wiped it off the face of the earth, and although the Gaelic Revival in the late 19th century brought it back from the dead, it wasn't a language to use, but a language to learn that we were taught!

And then in the 1950's & 1960's it was simplified, to get rid of the various dialects.

kiffer

oldyouth wrote: »

I couldn't get on with any Irish teacher I ever had. It was assumed that there would be someone at home who had Irish and could assist me with my homework. When I pointed out that this was not the case and I needed additional help, I was sneered at and comments were often made about my heritage. I fell too far behind in primary school to ever catch up

To cut a long story short, I wouldn't let that slide and this led to me being granted permission to absent myself from all Irish classes from 3rd year onwards

Gotta love the Christian Brothers...

Yeah, there was this feeling that there was an assumption that Irish was our racial language so we knew it on a genetic level and the teacher was just trying to bring that to the surface. Or to sound less crazy, it was taught like it wasn't a second language to us, but a first that we had forgotten...

tallus

Shouldn't the thread title be "Why can't anybody speak Irish" ?
Just saying like..

Wibbs

Relevance is one reason, how it's taught another and the attitude to the language(nice, but meh for most) another. The assumption that it's not a "foreign" language for the majority of Irish people is a big problem with the teaching of it.

kiffer

the_syco wrote: »

This.

Also, it's quite a new language. The famine all but wiped it off the face of the earth, and although the Gaelic Revival in the late 19th century brought it back from the dead, it wasn't a language to use, but a language to learn that we were taught!

And then in the 1950's & 1960's it was simplified, to get rid of the various dialects.

Not sure when it happened but the abolishment of the dot above consonants and its replacement with a 'h' was one of the worst moves ever. I love explaining that one to tourists that are trying to pronounce place names... "look the h isn't a h it's a place holder for an accent on the consonant before it, when ever you see a h just soften the letter before it."
It really makes it make more sense to them.
Don't think of it as a letter think of it as modifier.

Edit: obviously they still have trouble because that doesn't tell them when bh is v and when is it w... (delends on vowels) but its a better start than I got.

elefant

If almost every film we saw, every song we heard, many of the TV shows we watched since we were children were in Irish with English subtitles I bet we'd all be speaking Irish as well as we speak English.

It's incomparable to other nations in Europe- they're immersed in more than one language- of course they pick them up.

Someone said 'Irish people suck at languages'. What a self-deprecating fallacy.

Speisekarte

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I don't once remember the teacher asking us to have a simple conversation with our classmates in Irish.

Conway635

ITDept wrote: »

As a (terrible, murdering, female-disembowelling, oppressor) Brit .

Sorry - I should have made it more clear that these were HIS views being forced on impressionable children, and NEVER my own.

I lived happily in the UK for many years, and married an English woman (a double rejection of this priest's teachings, as he occasionally veered off the topic of "800 years" to lecture us on the evils of women).

C635

southsiderosie

I have to wonder, if Ireland's political situation was different would people be so opposed to learning Irish? When I lived in the Basque Country, young people, particularly in Gipuzcoa and Bizkaia, were enthusiastic about reviving the Basque language, in part because it had been repressed for so long. And unlike Catalan, Basque is not remotely related to Spanish (or any language, really), so it is very hard to learn.

It is a shame, really - many people from other countries are enamored with the Irish language (in part because Hiberno-English is so charming), but so many Irish people seem to loathe it because it is stuffed down their throats. From my outsider's perspective, I wonder if everyone would be better off if, instead of Irish being mandatory and resources spread thin, Irish language resources were concentrated on developing full immersion programs for ~20% of the population that extend from preschool to the university level. At the point where a significant percentage of the population had actual fluency (not the nonsense on the census forms), then the language would likely be safe for the future (and immersion instruction could be scaled up). But this would require both a long-term (20+ years) view on language and education policy, plus major concessions from the Irish language lobby...which is just another way of saying that it ain't gonna happen.

MusicalMelody

I never went to an Irish speaking primary or secondary school. When i got into secondary school i had a genuine interest in learning the language. I did my homework, listened in class and during the summer went to the Gaeltacht. I am now fluent in Irish and currently doing a degree through the Irish language. I also wanted to go into media as a career and it is a plus to have the language. Although in fairness it was hard to learn and i still have awful problems with the grammar. But i guess it's like learning every other language.

December2012

WindSock wrote: »

More people have heard Dothraki being spoken than they have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish combined.

But not High Valaryian!

BeerWolf

Been living in Ireland since '96 - don't know a single word of Irish... :pac:

wolfpawnat

Speak for yourself, I can hold a fairly decent conversation in Irish, so can the OH. And our son is going to gaelscoil in September. It is all in the way it is taught. Our son wanted to learn it, now he loves it. We sit down with him and praise him for the basics such as learning to count to ten and the like.

Having had it beat into us, it just brings back too many bad memories.

kiffer

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Speak for yourself, I can hold a fairly decent conversation in Irish, so can the OH. And our son is going to gaelscoil in September. It is all in the way it is taught. Our son wanted to learn it, now he loves it. We sit down with him and praise him for the basics such as learning to count to ten and the like.

I can count to ten in Irish... where's my parade?!
I was exempt but only found out in 6th year...
Anyway years after leaving school I have retained more Irish than many of my friends, I was in Pass and they were in Honours... turns out that memorising essays to write in exams doesn't make you better at a language...

9959

You're all in big trouble, just wait 'till the usual crew of zealots, cranks and snap-eyed bores get wind of this thread......

1. According to the constitution yada, yada...
2. Why can't we speak our own language and be different to those horrible Brits don't you know...
3. It's part of our culture, ask anyone in Spiddal...

Or try this one, summerized from a previous thread, I think by someone called 'Coles', apologies if incorrect: Only those as thick as pigsh1t could fail to pick it up at school.

So we're all stupid, uncultured philistines, not only sleeping with the enemy but whispering sweet nothings in his language.

I'm out before they get here with their twisted logic and tortuous double-speak, good luck!

keeponhurling

elefant wrote: »

Someone said 'Irish people suck at languages'. What a self-deprecating fallacy.

Agree, this is just more self-loathing nonsense.

I consider myself quite good at languages, and would put part of that down to being in a bilingual environment from very young (i.e. English at home, Irish at my gaelscoil)

Dravokivich

December2012 wrote: »

When was the last time you titrated something?

All the time if I was involved in some sort of Chemistry, which is a big industry in this country...

December2012 wrote: »

The last time you used algebra knowingly?

Every day, algebra is about multiple variables to get a result. It's not all "2A and 4Y = X, what's Z."

December2012 wrote: »

Transposed from a major into a minor chord?

Music is also a big industry in this country. Its also very popular for recreation. I'm sure there's plenty of people reading through your post thinking, "I had me a bit of that last night."

December2012 wrote: »

Quoted Shakespeare, Keats, Joyce?

Comprehending a well told story isn't about quotes...

wolfpawnat

kiffer wrote: »

I can count to ten in Irish... where's my parade?!
I was exempt but only found out in 6th year...
Anyway years after leaving school I have retained more Irish than many of my friends, I was in Pass and they were in Honours... turns out that memorising essays to write in exams doesn't make you better at a language...

I'll arrange the parade for you later

He is 4 and can count to ten and knows a few bits in Irish all because of how he is taught. We made it everyday and fun. As a result when he goes to school it will be easier and more accessible to him. A lot of people are bilingual by the time they reach school. I have a neighbour whose daughter is the same age as my son and she is fluent in Polish and English. When parents make the effort, children learn these things very easily.

And memorizing things you don't understand is great for school exams, useless in life

Sleepy

Because the vast majority of us don't give a **** about it and have no interest in learning, or speaking it.

joe stodge

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

I can speak it.
Am I the only one left?

December2012

Dravokivich wrote: »

All the time if I was involved in some sort of Chemistry, which is a big industry in this country...



Every day, algebra is about multiple variables to get a result. It's not all "2A and 4Y = X, what's Z."



Music is also a big industry in this country. Its also very popular for recreation. I'm sure there's plenty of people reading through your post thinking, "I had me a bit of that last night."



Comprehending a well told story isn't about quotes...

I agree with you - You've just confirmed my point.

The value in learning something in school should not be solely equated with how "useful" something is for business or work.

I agree about algebra, maths, music, science, all of the subjects!
And last night some people spoke Irish too.

We use things every day, sometimes for enjoyment, sometimes for work. Education must be looked at holistically and that's why I think Irish and other languages should remain a subject in schools.

Just because we are not all professional athletes doesn't mean we stop teaching PE

Some parts of education are about learning to learn, expanding the thought process and expanding the mind.

CruelCoin

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

"Most" he said.

I think you'll find "most" europaeans live west of Poland jfyi.

CruelCoin

elefant wrote: »

If almost every film we saw, every song we heard, many of the TV shows we watched since we were children were in Irish with English subtitles I bet we'd all be speaking Irish as well as we speak English.

It's incomparable to other nations in Europe- they're immersed in more than one language- of course they pick them up.

Someone said 'Irish people suck at languages'. What a self-deprecating fallacy.

I said that.

I'm not going to bother digging it up for you, but go away and look at the stats for average language competency state by state, and you'll find us on the bottom of the table, or near enough.

hoodwinked

joe stodge wrote: »

I can speak it.
Am I the only one left?

no there is my husband and i too, we both converse in irish frequently, (and not just when we don't want our daughter to know what we are saying) we also speak in french sometimes, but that drives him mad because i speak too fast.

Friend Computer

The focus is on it being a cultural institution rather than a language to be used day-to-day. If the reverse were the case there'd be a focus on grammar and syntax rather than rote learning of prose and poetry.
But then that'd acknowledge that for the vast, vast majority of people it's a second language.