Why can nobody speak Irish?

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

You want IBEC consulted on young people's education?

So you think educational obligations should be aligned with the interests of generating wealth for private individuals?

For someone who seems to be condemning the oppressive nature of compulsory learning, what you are suggesting is is the polar opposite of intellectual liberty. It's basically saying "IBEC have a right of audience in denying your place at the Universities".

In any case, to return to my original point - how do you square your (new) claim that you don't believe in mandatory topics... with this:

Ah I understand you now, you're confusing topic with subject. Yeats and co would be an essential part of the optional English subject. No one would be compelled to study Irish writers, nor would Irish writers be the only writers studied as part of the course.

As for IBEC, their place would be to advise the universities on how best to promote growth and stimulate job creation. As representatives for large business in Ireland they know better then any how to meet the needs of large scale multinationals and attract future investment.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

So let me get this straight.

According to you...

someone who is gifted in, and can fluently and ably discuss French symbolists, American postmodern writers, the Romantics, and mediaeval English literature should be forced to study topics they hate because they are Irish and an "essential part of our heritage"?

No. According to me English should not be a compulsory subject. Irish writers would form an important part in forming the optional English subject but they would not cover the entire curriculum.

Dindsenchas wrote: »

If IBEC had their way,we'd all be working like slaves!

Don't be facetious.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Iwasfrozen said Yeats is "essential" to the English curriculum because he is part of our heritage. That is what I am answering.

I know - and for the record I disagree with him - but your paraphrasing of his post was confusing (to say the least).

Dindsenchas wrote: »

"I have no desire to force my views on other people".Instead,you would have IBEC do it for you.

He said "in conjunction with or advice from" - he did not say allowing IBEC (or any external body) to set the requirments or "force" anything, which is not the case in NUI.

What this boils down to is simple: what do you want third level education to achieve? A career? A sense of national pride? An education? Or should this be up for the student to decide assuming he has the basic skills required to partake in the course?

Dindsenchas wrote: »

"I have no desire to force my views on other people".Instead,you would have IBEC do it for you.

IBEC would be there to advise Universities on what it is multi-nationals are looking for when they hire graduates.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

wHAT i want to get at is why you're forcing English literature students to study Irish writers?

You don't have to go into a big speal about anything else. Can you just explain why you think the inclusion of Irish writers like Yeats, and presumably others who are Irish, is essential.

I'm not advocating forcing them to do anything. They choose whether they want to study the subject or not. If they do they do so with the knowledge that they will be studying said writers. If they despise said writers so much that they cannot possibly study them then I would advise that they study another subject.

As for why Irish writers be included in the subject at all? Well that's simple, the aim of the course is to provide students with an introduction to Irish literary tradition with the intention of providing a platform to which a competent and motivated student can launch themselves into third level literary study.

Aineoil wrote: »

What if you didn't want to work for a multi-national?

A person might like to be a writer or sculptor or an artist.
How would IBEC help here?

How would an Irish langauge lobby group?

In relation to the idea what NUI should rquire Irish for their courses, which I accept, is a point you didn't make, but is still very relevant in context.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What have we established?

We have established that there are now instances where, within a broad process, students may be forced to study topics which are perceived as valuable by the society in which that student lives.

Yes, as long as the course itself remains optional.

The fact that the Irish course is a subject and not a topic has no substantive meaning.

It makes a massvie difference! You're assuming everyone has an interest in learning Irish in order to take the course in the same way you're assuming everyone has an interest in English in order to take the course.

The fact remains that a student may matriculate to Dublin University or other third level institutions without having sat Irish. It is not a universal requirement for third level, just as English would not be a universal requirement under your scheme where you envisage mandatory topics of national, social, cultural merit.

But why should they HAVE to, that's the question. Why should they not be allowed to enter on merit?

Cody Pomeray wrote:

The fact that the Irish course is a subject and not a topic has no substantive meaning. The fact remains that a student may matriculate to Dublin University or other third level institutions without having sat Irish. It is not a universal requirement for third level, just as English would not be a universal requirement under your scheme where you envisage mandatory topics of national, social, cultural merit.

Let me tell you a little something about myself. I was quite a good student in school, I did my homework, got good grades and got on with the teachers. Except for one subject, Irish. I hated the language in school and resented learning it. Not only that we had a smarmy arrogant pr*ck for an Irish teacher who would smugly greet me i ngeailge no matter how many times I made it clear to him in I was not interested in initiating a conversation in Irish by replying to him in English.

Anyway needless to say with Mr. Smarmy pants gaeilgeoir as my teacher for 5 out of 6 years I never learned anything and cursed the likes of Foras na Gaeilge and the Gaelic League for forcing this sh*t on me. Given my attitude towards the language it is no surprise (to my shame) I failed ordinary level Irish in my mocks. Now I genuinely wouldn't have cared except that I wanted to get into UCD so what did I do? I hired an Irish tutor and worked my arse off and over the next few months turned that fail into a B1. Still ordinary level but I was proud of myself nonetheless. I got my place in UCD and 3 years later I'm getting ready to go into my fourth.

All very well you may think but now I look back and think who the feck did UCD think they were to compel me to learn Irish? What if I hadn't passed, how could I imagine having to resit the leaving cert again and study a language I had no interest in just to please a bunch of crusty old men in suits over in the NUI?

Aineoil wrote: »

Frankly English literature is likely to be as useless as the Irish language on the job market.


People have varied interests in all sorts of things that aren't job market related. People like to pursue many areas that appeal to their personalities. Each to their own...

All well and dandy but the purpose and duty of the state is to manage and strengthen our economy and competitiveness.