Why can nobody speak Irish?

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 21-08-2013 02:06PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Anybody interested in using the language is more than welcome to join in. Anyone who couldn't be arsed can keep living their lives as normal. Slagging off the language and the people who use it is just silly.

In fairness, if it was just something that enthusiasts did among themselves it would be silly for others to comment. Unfortunately, the language does intrude on the lives of those who don't feel an affinity for it. I've no doubt those themes will have been brought out. Things like Irish being the only compulsory Leaving Cert subject, and the primacy given to the Irish version of our laws despite few being able to read them.

If Irish language enthusiasts were open to the official "status" of the language being removed, it could do quite a lot for the language. Because, then, what you say would be irrefutable. The Irish language is an issue because there's a strong lobby hanging on to some rather annoying privileges. There's your trouble.

Tony EH · 21-08-2013 02:10PM

Agreed. I don't really see anybody "slagging off the language", it is JUST a language after all. However, people are quite right to feel angered at some of the artificial nonsense and constraints that are placed upon the language by vested interests and the difficulties that those actions have upon people who don't wish to have anything to do with it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-08-2013 02:12PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Anybody interested in using the language is more than welcome to join in. Anyone who couldn't be arsed can keep living their lives as normal. Slagging off the language and the people who use it is just silly.

... except very few people are doing this. The rest of us merely highlighting the limitations it puts on people through over-zealousness and the extent to which some meausres backfire and lead to people disliking the langauge rather than enjoying it.

Capercaille · 21-08-2013 02:55PM

I'm far from fluent. However last night was booking a B&B in the Mayo Gaeltacht. Conducted the conversation in Irish,but I had to fling the odd word of English in. Was talking general chit-chat for 10 minutes. Is the language dead? No it ain't.

PopePalpatine · 21-08-2013 04:30PM

Rubeter wrote: »

You could say it but it would help if you explained what you mean.
All languages used in modern countries have taken on a huge number of new words through the 20th century.

What I meant was that, in my experience at least, those who insist on a "Gaelic revival" tend to be more socially conservative. I've an aunt who, although I don't know how good her Irish is, would rant about foreigners from time to time, rant about any attempt to ease the Catholic Church's grip on schools and once told a joke about Savita Halappanavar's death.

Your mileage may vary, though.

BognarRegis · 21-08-2013 05:20PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Anybody interested in using the language is more than welcome to join in. Anyone who couldn't be arsed can keep living their lives as normal.

Unless one is unfortunate enough to be forced by the state to speak Irish at school or one is a taxpayer forced to fund the numerous Irish language quangos, and sinecures.

todders · 21-08-2013 05:27PM

Nobody? I'm fluent

Caonima · 21-08-2013 05:35PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

...once told a joke about Savita Halappanavar's death.

Real grade A humanitarian you have there. Sounds like my granny, too. In her world, people nowadays still "work like blacks" or, conversely, are "lazy bloody Nigerians" (irrespective of where they're from, though being black). Doubt she could speak a lick of Irish, though.

Insect Overlord · 21-08-2013 05:43PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What I meant was that, in my experience at least, those who insist on a "Gaelic revival" tend to be more socially conservative.

I would suggest you read Mícheál Ó Conghaile's collection of short stories, "An Fear A Phléasc" and "An Fear Nach nDéanann Gáire", Breandán Ó hÉithir's novel "Lig Sinn i gCathú" and Máirtín Ó Cadhan's masterpiece "Cré Na Cille". Probably the most successful publications as Gaeilge since Myles Na gCopaleen's "Béal Bocht", and all very anti-establishment. The satire of social conservatism is as entertaining as it is thought-provoking.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've an aunt who, although I don't know how good her Irish is, would rant about foreigners from time to time, rant about any attempt to ease the Catholic Church's grip on schools and once told a joke about Savita Halappanavar's death.

That's a really weird non sequitur.

Days 298 · 21-08-2013 05:43PM

I've no problem with Irish. I've a problem with it being forced in my face. The new driving licence ticked me off. I speak English. The driving licence makes the irish easy to read, but the English akward which will give rise to unnecessary explaining to foreign police. It should either be the other way round or like Irish speakers can opt to be dealt with in Irish only, we should have the option to have english only identity cards.

http://imgur.com/NbXiSUf

I find it irritating and I view the language with scorn because of this "official" language crap being used to spread it. Speak it all you like, leave me alone.

rubadub · 21-08-2013 05:50PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Unless one is unfortunate enough to be forced by the state to speak Irish at school or one is a taxpayer forced to fund the numerous Irish language quangos, and sinecures.

There could be other economic knock on effects. e.g. I repeated the leaving and found it a breeze since I was no longer forced to do Irish so had more time to study other subjects which are more closely related. So one person out of work 1 year longer. I also believe if I had learned another lanugage instead I would have been both more interested, so done better, and had a better effect on the economy overall too.

I was really jealous of my cousin who was exempt as he was out of the country for years.

I view it as similar to the metric system and SI units. I would hate to be in the US where I presume many in my line of technical work end up having to be proficient in both "foreign" SI units, metric, centigrade/celcius, as well as their own US gallons, US cups, inches, Fahrenheit.

Cody Pomeray · 21-08-2013 07:08PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for Yeats and co of course they should be included in the English language course, they are an essential part of our literature heritage.

Wait, what do you mean by the words "an essential part"?

Say an English student at leaving cert level is fascinated by and greatly competent on the works of the English Romantics, or the continental modernists, or American postmodernists.

Say this person is capable of writing volumes of coherent, brilliant treatises on any of the writers in any of these schools.

Now say that this person has no interest in Yeats and cannot get their head around his (according to that student) irrelevant, fuddy-duddy, twee condescension of Irish-ness.

Do you maintain that "of course [Yeats] should be included" in that person's education simply because YOU say you feel Yeats is as "an essential part of our literature heritage"?

Dwellingdweller · 21-08-2013 07:16PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Firstly, there is no real "Irish". There is sligo/donegal/galway irish, and your teacher(s) can teach you one or many dialects and you can be examined in another.

Secondly, the vast majority of the teaching is crammed down your neck in the form of rote learning. Language is best learned by example and context. Children by and large do not learn to speak english by being forced to memorize and regurgitate.

Thirdly, as a nation, we suck at all languages.
It's not just irish, it's french/german etc. Why this is i couldn't tell you.

And then there is the question of relevance. From the get-go, i knew the language was a dying one.
Useless in a county where a tiny minority speak it, useless in business, useless in trade, useless to anybody other than preening culture whores. As such, in school i gave it the bare minimum of my attention and focused more on maths, the sciences, etc, where what you learn may actually be useful.

While I agreed with (nearly) your whole post, on the basis that you made good points, I found the bolded part plainly offensive - given that I'm from the Gaeltacht and speak Irish every day. Being proud of your language simply because it's your language != being a "preening culture whore", and I'm sure there are many people out there who'd appreciate your being a tad more sensitive about your choice of words with regard to Irish speakers.

Caonima · 21-08-2013 07:24PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Useless in a county where a tiny minority speak it, useless in business, useless in trade, useless to anybody other than preening culture whores.

You mean you didn't learn a cupla focal to help pick up some maith an caileen redhead?

Carlos Orange · 21-08-2013 07:28PM

Days 298 wrote: »

I've no problem with Irish. I've a problem with it being forced in my face. The new driving licence ticked me off. I speak English. The driving licence makes the irish easy to read, but the English akward which will give rise to unnecessary explaining to foreign police. It should either be the other way round or like Irish speakers can opt to be dealt with in Irish only, we should have the option to have english only identity cards.

http://imgur.com/NbXiSUf

I find it irritating and I view the language with scorn because of this "official" language crap being used to spread it. Speak it all you like, leave me alone.

Man that is awful. I guess it is what happens when reality is second place to ideology.

camphor · 21-08-2013 07:50PM

Why can nobody speak Irish?

If people could learn English it would be a start.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2013 12:36AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Wait, what do you mean by the words "an essential part"?

Say an English student at leaving cert level is fascinated by and greatly competent on the works of the English Romantics, or the continental modernists, or American postmodernists.

Say this person is capable of writing volumes of coherent, brilliant treatises on any of the writers in any of these schools.

Now say that this person has no interest in Yeats and cannot get their head around his (according to that student) irrelevant, fuddy-duddy, twee condescension of Irish-ness.

Do you maintain that "of course [Yeats] should be included" in that person's education simply because YOU say you feel Yeats is as "an essential part of our literature heritage"?

Well then it's a good thing English and American writers are included in our English course.

Insect Overlord · 22-08-2013 01:39AM

Are there many posters here who've extensively read the works of Yeats, Joyce and Wilde?

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2013 01:50AM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Are there many posters here who've extensively read the works of Yeats, Joyce and Wilde?

Before anyone answers why does it matter?

Insect Overlord · 22-08-2013 01:53AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Before anyone answers why does it matter?

Because it's 1:53 in the morning and I'm curious.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2013 02:12AM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Because it's 1:53 in the morning and I'm curious.

It was only 1:39 when you asked the question :P

david75 · 22-08-2013 02:19AM

Why can nobody speak Irish!?

Cos it's been left in the hands of hungover moron primary teachers fresh out if drumcondra for generations and made to be totally irrelevant and uninyereting to young people.

Mainly.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 22-08-2013 01:36PM

david75 wrote: »

Why can nobody speak Irish!?

Cos it's been left in the hands of hungover moron primary teachers fresh out if drumcondra for generations and made to be totally irrelevant and uninyereting to young people.

Mainly.

I'd say coupled to the possibility that teachers want to make sure that no-one knows enough Irish to qualify as a teacher, apart from the children of teachers.

Insect Overlord · 22-08-2013 01:57PM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd say coupled to the possibility that teachers want to make sure that no-one knows enough Irish to qualify as a teacher, apart from the children of teachers.

I've been reading After Hours for nearly 7 years, and that's still one of the silliest ideas I've ever read.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 22-08-2013 02:24PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I've been reading After Hours for nearly 7 years, and that's still one of the silliest ideas I've ever read.

I'm mildly surprised to see someone taking the comment so seriously. Maybe I'm on to something.

I mean, we're wasting €500 million every year on Irish language teaching in schools, and at the end of it most people can hardly string a sentence together. And you're saying one of the silliest things you've read here is a comment saying "I wonder if it's deliberate."

As if spending €500 million and getting no return shouldn't raise an eyebrow.

Can I say, your post is one of the most thought-provoking I've read on any forum. Well done.

Cody Pomeray · 22-08-2013 02:29PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well then it's a good thing English and American writers are included in our English course.

No, that's not an answer to the question.

The question is whether because of Yeats's (alleged) "essential part of our literature heritage" he should be one of the compulsory prescribed poets for the English course; i.e. should students have to be instructed on the poetry of Yeats, regardless of their choice or inclination?

You said that as "an essential part" of our heritage, "of course Yeats should be included".

Can you confirm that you favour mandatory topics for the leaving certificate as they relate to literary and/or cultural heritage?

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2013 03:12PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, that's not an answer to the question.

The question is whether because of Yeats's (alleged) "essential part of our literature heritage" he should be one of the compulsory prescribed poets for the English course; i.e. should students have to be instructed on the poetry of Yeats, regardless of their choice or inclination?

You said that as "an essential part" of our heritage, "of course Yeats should be included".

Can you confirm that you favour mandatory topics for the leaving certificate as they relate to literary and/or cultural heritage?

No, I don't. I don't believe any subject should be compulsory for the leaving cert. I believe that Universities, in conjugation with or with advise from IBEC should set their own matriculation requirements. Parents and guardians are then free to choose what subjects the child studies independent from state led ideological compulsion.

Insect Overlord · 22-08-2013 03:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't believe any subject should be compulsory for the leaving cert. I believe that Universities, in conjugation with or with advise from IBEC should set their own matriculation requirements. Parents and guardians are then free to choose what subjects the child studies independent from state led ideological compulsion.

Conjunct the verb "to conjugate". :pac:

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2013 03:38PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Conjunct the verb "to conjugate". :pac:

conjunction :P

Cody Pomeray · 22-08-2013 03:50PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Universities, in conjugation with or with advise from IBEC should set their own matriculation requirements.

You want IBEC consulted on young people's education?

So you think educational obligations should be aligned with the interests of generating wealth for private individuals?

For someone who seems to be condemning the oppressive nature of compulsory learning, what you are suggesting is is the polar opposite of intellectual liberty. It's basically saying "IBEC have a right of audience in denying your place at the Universities".

In any case, to return to my original point - how do you square your (new) claim that you don't believe in mandatory topics... with this:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for Yeats and co of course they should be included in the English language course, they are an essential part of our literature heritage.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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