Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

blatantrereg · 21-08-2013 08:31AM

cdebru wrote: »

No they don't, the state is paying for a service it views as essential, and not paying enough. That is no different than the state buying any service from a private or semi state company.except of course it chooses how much it should pay not the company.

Of course their salaries are paid by our taxes. You can phrase things any way you want and it will still be true. Nothing you said here contradicts that fact.

noodler · 21-08-2013 08:39AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

Of course their salaries are paid by our taxes. You can phrase things any way you want and it will still be true. Nothing you said here contradicts that fact.

The subvention isn't the whole story but I do agree with you in a number of ways.

It seems a bit silly for anyone to go too overboard with the whole "actually the taxpayer doesn't pay their wages" argument when the only reason they feel secure enough to strike is because it is an essential service effecting hundreds of thousands in the capital.

Their rejection of the ballot seems to put serious pressure on the notion that their major issue was reassurances over when the cuts would be reversed. I can barely believe Dublin Bus pays drivers 2.5 times their normal rate on a Sunday and there is an issue (in the current climate) with bringing this down to X2.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 10:42AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Barmen do waitresses, shoe shop workers I can go on?

You are wrong, Sunday working is recognised in law as a special case.

Yet again people here have been shown to be talking out of their .......

"Sunday working
If you do Sunday work your entitlement to extra pay may be agreed between you and your employer. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act, if there is no agreement about your pay, your employer must give you one or more of the following for Sunday working:
•
A reasonable allowance
•
A reasonable pay increase
•
Reasonable paid time off work

What is reasonable depends on all the circumstances. It is a matter for negotiation between you and your employer and, where applicable, your trade union. Some guidance may be obtained by referring, where possible, to an agreement applying to comparable employees elsewhere in similar employment.
The Labour Relations Commission has published a Code of Practice for Sunday working in the Retail Trade (pdf). A new Code of Practice on Sunday Working for workers covered by ERO sectors is to be prepared by the Labour Relations Commission.
"

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

cdebru · 21-08-2013 10:48AM

noodler wrote: »

The subvention isn't the whole story but I do agree with you in a number of ways.

It seems a bit silly for anyone to go too overboard with the whole "actually the taxpayer doesn't pay their wages" argument when the only reason they feel secure enough to strike is because it is an essential service effecting hundreds of thousands in the capital.

Their rejection of the ballot seems to put serious pressure on the notion that their major issue was reassurances over when the cuts would be reversed. I can barely believe Dublin Bus pays drivers 2.5 times their normal rate on a Sunday and there is an issue (in the current climate) with bringing this down to X2.

No they pay x2 for Sunday work, the 2.5 is in relation to overtime on a Sunday.

Who says the major issue was the reversing of the cuts or that there are any further reassurances regarding it?

The company pays their wages, the company receives its income for the services it provides to its customers, and from the state for providing non commercial services the state considers necessary.

veryangryman · 21-08-2013 10:49AM

cdebru wrote: »

adult 188
adult dependent 124
child dependent 29.80

rent allowance upto 1000 a month

husband wife 2 kids =372 a week+ 250 pw rent allowance 612 euro a week that is 31,824 a year.

DB driver take home pay 28k or about 540 per week.

You forgot to factor in the fact that you get the childrens allowance whether working or not.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 10:51AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

Of course their salaries are paid by our taxes. You can phrase things any way you want and it will still be true. Nothing you said here contradicts that fact.

The majority of DB income is through fares not subvention

cdebru · 21-08-2013 10:54AM

veryangryman wrote: »

You forgot to factor in the fact that you get the childrens allowance whether working or not.

That is why childrens allowance is not included, the child dependent payment is in addition to childrens allowance at a rate of 29.80 per week per child.

Stheno · 21-08-2013 11:04AM

veryangryman wrote: »

You forgot to factor in the fact that you get the childrens allowance whether working or not.

That's the same regardless.
However cdebru hasn't factored in that as his wife does not work, he is probably getting her tax credits, so his tax home should actually be €588 per week.

Additionally rent supplement in Dublin is up to €900 for a couple with two children in Fingal and up to €975 in the other Dublin councils. However, of that €975 per month, €152 must be contributed by the couple out of their social welfare (€35 per week) so the figures then are

adult 188
adult dependent 124
child dependent 29.80

rent supplement up to €190 per week

giving a total of €561.60 which is less than the take home above, still ridiculous but less than the take home of €588

And if a mortgage was involved, it would be less again.
And a single person on the €35k per year would see a significant drop in their income on social welfare.

noodler · 21-08-2013 11:14AM

cdebru wrote: »

Who says the major issue was the reversing of the cuts or that there are any further reassurances regarding it? .

Siptu said it.

They said it numerous times.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-08-2013 11:17AM

cdebru wrote: »

No they don't, the state is paying for a service it views as essential, and not paying enough. That is no different than the state buying any service from a private or semi state company.except of course it chooses how much it should pay not the company.

The state is being ripped off by its own monopoly, it would get much better value from putting bundles of routes out to tender and allow efficient private companies, with modern day work practices, to compete for them.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-08-2013 11:19AM

Stheno wrote: »

That's the same regardless.
However cdebru hasn't factored in that as his wife does not work, he is probably getting her tax credits, so his tax home should actually be €588 per week.

Additionally rent supplement in Dublin is up to €900 for a couple with two children in Fingal and up to €975 in the other Dublin councils. However, of that €975 per month, €152 must be contributed by the couple out of their social welfare (€35 per week) so the figures then are

adult 188
adult dependent 124
child dependent 29.80

rent supplement up to €190 per week

giving a total of €561.60 which is less than the take home above, still ridiculous but less than the take home of €588

And if a mortgage was involved, it would be less again.
And a single person on the €35k per year would see a significant drop in their income on social welfare.

He also hasn't factored in that mortgage supplement wouldn't be paid for the first 12 months, and that DB drivers have a range of perks that the family would lose.

end of the road · 21-08-2013 12:33PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

The state is being ripped off by its own monopoly

bull, they get a subsidy and provide services private operators wouldn't touch even with such subsidy and take less for it, its dublin bus who is being ripped off

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

it would get much better value from putting bundles of routes out to tender and allow efficient private companies, with modern day work practices, to compete for them.

any evidence to back that up? oh wait no, didn't you agree earlier that privatisation of vital social bus services was a failure? oh yes thats right you did. dublin bus operates via modern day work practices, the bus service can't be any more efficient then it is, we wouldn't get value for money as shown from the uk, the no trains authority can't be trusted to implament it properly, the contract would be won no doubt by some friend of a politician, and the majority of money raised would go to private share holders, no dublin bus is fine, you and your little friends aren't going to get your hands on the peoples social bus service that is publically owned and funded, leave the privates operate their own routes where their guarinteeed to make a proffit, they won't on the majority of the routes operated by dublin bus, the routes that do make something are vital to help cross subsidise the rest

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-08-2013 12:37PM

end of the road wrote: »

bull, they get a subsidy and provide services private operators wouldn't touch even with such subsidy and take less for it, its dublin bus who is being ripped off

any evidence to back that up? oh wait no, didn't you agree earlier that privatisation of vital social bus services was a failure? oh yes thats right you did. dublin bus operates via modern day work practices, the bus service can't be any more efficient then it is, we wouldn't get value for money as shown from the uk, the no trains authority can't be trusted to implament it properly, the contract would be won no doubt by some friend of a politician, and the majority of money raised would go to private share holders, no dublin bus is fine, you and your little friends aren't going to get your hands on the peoples social bus service that is publically owned and funded, leave the privates operate their own routes where their guarinteeed to make a proffit, they won't on the majority of the routes operated by dublin bus, the routes that do make something are vital to help cross subsidise the rest

No I didn't. Care to either quote where I did or withdraw that lie?

Hootanany · 21-08-2013 02:06PM

cdebru wrote: »

You are wrong, Sunday working is recognised in law as a special case.

Yet again people here have been shown to be talking out of their .......

"Sunday working
If you do Sunday work your entitlement to extra pay may be agreed between you and your employer. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act, if there is no agreement about your pay, your employer must give you one or more of the following for Sunday working:
•
A reasonable allowance
•
A reasonable pay increase
•
Reasonable paid time off work

What is reasonable depends on all the circumstances. It is a matter for negotiation between you and your employer and, where applicable, your trade union. Some guidance may be obtained by referring, where possible, to an agreement applying to comparable employees elsewhere in similar employment.
The Labour Relations Commission has published a Code of Practice for Sunday working in the Retail Trade (pdf). A new Code of Practice on Sunday Working for workers covered by ERO sectors is to be prepared by the Labour Relations Commission.
"

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

So you work 7 days a week divided by 49 and the answer is how many hours per day?

The Poll above is saying it all isn't it?

ixoy · 21-08-2013 02:46PM

cdebru wrote: »

If you do Sunday work your entitlement to extra pay may be agreed between you and your employer. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act, if there is no agreement about your pay,

The important part here is that the contract can agree to there being no extra pay for a Sunday or at a different amount. The contract must acknowledge the conditions for a Sunday pay to which you agree but that doesn't meant everyone must get extra pay for a Sunday. Certainly many salaried workers would not.

For all the talk of unemployment benefit as well - after a year it's means tested. If your partner is working, or you have any form of declared savings, you'll be getting a lot less than some of the figures quoted here.

Foxtrol · 21-08-2013 02:57PM

cdebru wrote: »

no the comparison is to show the ridiculousness of your arguement, if social welfare rates are higher than basic pay rates you can not be over paid end of story.

Measuring it against social welfare rates only goes to highlight that the level of social welfare is paid out is also ludicrous, especially for those long-term unemployed with the mindset that you appear to have (‘Ah sure why’d I bother going to work if I can get nearly the same for sittin’ on me hole’).

starting of salaries for a graduate are exactly that starting off salaries, and surely the same reasoning would apply to graduates as you apply to drivers if you are not happy with the remuneration find another job.

Care to explain why starting off bus driver rates should be significantly higher than those who have spent 3/4/5 years in college?

seems to me you are a little bitter you chose poorly in your cao forms and ended up with a **** job you don't like, stop blaming others and trying to make everyone else as miserable as you appear to be.

I’m not bitter at all, I admit I did start off on less than the bus drivers but at this stage I’m earning a good bit more and have much better opportunities on the horizon than the grumpy driver that picked me up this morning. I am however pissed off that my taxes going to fund overpaid bus drivers who are so out of touch with reality that they believe they’re untouchable by the recession and are holding a large part of the population of Dublin to ransom even though their core wages aren’t being touched, just ridiculous overtime rates and some archaic practices/bonuses.

Foxtrol · 21-08-2013 03:08PM

cdebru wrote: »

IF it was done correctly, that is a massive IF we have such a **** poor record of regulation of any industry here, my money is on it would be a disaster in which some friend of FG or FF somehow wins a contract against the odds.

You continuously refuse to answer what would be the claimed downside for the consumer if a proper, effective tendering process was put in place for routes? Simple answer is that it would be great for the consumer but bad for the overpaid, inefficient, obstinate drivers.

The argument ‘it wouldn’t happen’ could as easily be turned back on you and I could say Dublin Bus will never work efficiently, never be able to make even one of its routes profitable and will continue to increase again and again the fares for the consumer and at least my claim would actually be based on what the company has failed to do for years, not some hypothesis you’ve come up with from apples and oranges comparison to historic deregulation in the past in different countries.

Hootanany · 21-08-2013 04:23PM

I think they are gone now.

todders · 21-08-2013 04:26PM

Should be sacked the lot of them, greedy out

end of the road · 21-08-2013 04:42PM

todders wrote: »

Should be sacked the lot of them

why? because you can't get the same working conditions?

todders wrote: »

greedy out

no its just greedy, not that they are, nothing wrong with fighting/trying to keep good working conditions and pay, everyone would do it if they could, sadly i suspect your one of the generation coming up who have no bottle and who will just take whatever is thrown at them including the downgrading of working conditions, my heart breaks for the next generation who will have no fight

Foxtrol · 21-08-2013 04:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

no its just greedy, not that they are, nothing wrong with fighting/trying to keep good working conditions and pay, everyone would do it if they could, sadly i suspect your one of the generation coming up who have no bottle and who will just take whatever is thrown at them including the downgrading of working conditions, my heart breaks for the next generation who will have no fight

Would be great if that was what they were fighting for and if it was they’d probably get a lot more support, what they’re actually holding the public ransom for is the slight lowering of overtime rates to levels which would still be seen as very generous in any sector, which doesn’t even affect the large majority of staff, and the change to archaic practices and bonuses.

Not matter how many times posters try to make out that these are savage cuts being imposed by an evil company it doesn’t make it actually be the case, they’re relatively mild reductions recommended and watered down by the LRC, even milder seeing the poor financial position the company is in and the fact that these are the first time the recession has touched the drivers.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-08-2013 04:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

why? because you can't get the same working conditions?

no its just greedy, not that they are, nothing wrong with fighting/trying to keep good working conditions and pay, everyone would do it if they could, sadly i suspect your one of the generation coming up who have no bottle and who will just take whatever is thrown at them including the downgrading of working conditions, my heart breaks for the next generation who will have no fight

Still waiting on you to retract your earlier lie, or are you not man enough to admit when you're wrong?

Hootanany · 21-08-2013 05:00PM

"No Surrender"

DeanAustin · 21-08-2013 05:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

why? because you can't get the same working conditions?

no its just greedy, not that they are, nothing wrong with fighting/trying to keep good working conditions and pay, everyone would do it if they could, sadly i suspect your one of the generation coming up who have no bottle and who will just take whatever is thrown at them including the downgrading of working conditions, my heart breaks for the next generation who will have no fight

Oh my...

The next generation has plenty of fight but not the same sense of entitlement...

awec · 21-08-2013 05:08PM

Jumboman wrote: »

What the anti union crowd don't realise is that people were only able to get their rights by fighting for them. If the unions didnt fight for our rights we would still be working 12 to 14 hour days with no paid holidays etc.

Not this tripe. Usual union bullsh!t trotted out to try and make themselves sound superior and relevant, lapped up by unsuspecting individuals happy to shell out their hard earned each month to have some jumped up, overly-militant lefty tell them what to do.

Industrial action is not a display of "balls", "fight", "bottle" or any other emotive adjective that these people like to use to describe their behaviour. Where exactly is the balls in paying someone else to tell you what to do and then standing about on the street like a lost little lemming when the boys at the top decide they need a bit more publicity and attention.

Dublin Bus workers should be told that anyone else who fails to turn up for work will be sacked. Time for them to get real.

awec · 21-08-2013 05:11PM

cdebru wrote: »

No expecting people to work, for flat rate on Sundays when most people are spending time with their families is draconian. It is not 2.5 it is 2 which is the normal rate for Sunday work across industry even in non union work places.

Utter and complete tripe. Head in the clouds stuff.

todders · 21-08-2013 05:20PM

end of the road wrote: »

why? because you can't get the same working conditions?

no its just greedy, not that they are, nothing wrong with fighting/trying to keep good working conditions and pay, everyone would do it if they could, sadly i suspect your one of the generation coming up who have no bottle and who will just take whatever is thrown at them including the downgrading of working conditions, my heart breaks for the next generation who will have no fight

How do you know what my "working conditions" are?

You suspect wrong pal, but then you are just full of BS assumptions

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-08-2013 05:22PM

todders wrote: »

How do you know what my "working conditions" are?

You suspect wrong pal, but then you are just full of BS assumptions

And lies!

Hootanany · 21-08-2013 05:24PM

I think DB are loosing the Battle here.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 07:47PM

Hootanany wrote: »

So you work 7 days a week divided by 49 and the answer is how many hours per day?

The Poll above is saying it all isn't it?

no you work 5 over 7, what are you talking about ?

Yeah internet poll, gutted.

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

Comments