Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 07:39PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why would a bus union be fighting for my rights?

I'm talking about unions in general. Even if you don't care aboue bus drivers it helps everyone if their are good wages and conditions across the economy. Your boss could come and say to you, look everyone in the country has had a pay cut its now time for you to have a pay cut.

Except that the government isn't trying to cut wages, it's trying to make cuts in an unprofitable business.

Certain bus routes will never be profitable. I don't know how you can say these aren't wage cuts when drivers will go home with less money.

Also, how can they cut wages when they have nothing to do with them?

CIE is a state company.

Paranoia at its finest. Funny that you mention the disabled and pensioners, seems to me that this bus strike hit them the hardest.

Austerity has failed spectacularly by cutting everyones wages it will mean less money for the disabled and pensioners.

Leaving aside that the government has no reason to cut wages, more wages = more taxes.

They are trying to "bring down the cost of doing business" ie internal devaluation which means slashing wages across the economy.

Foxtrol · 20-08-2013 07:45PM

Jumboman wrote: »

Thats a big "if" can you point to a country were it has worked ?

Also if it is profitable it would be better for the state to run it so any profit that is made can put back into the service instead of lining the pockets of a denis o'brien or a tony o'reilly.

Well DB have proved time and again that despite repeated hikes in fares and cuts to some routes that they and their staff don’t have the ability/desire to make it profitable (or bring it near to breaking even).

The fact that not one single route makes a profit is astounding and is enough reason to start a tendering process.

Hilly Bill · 20-08-2013 07:47PM

cdebru wrote: »

2.5 is for overtime on a Sunday, double is for Sundays that are part of your working week, extra payment for overtime is normal in most reasonable industries and 2.5 for Sunday overtime is standard for where Sunday is part of the working week.

If they put you on a 5/7 rosta with no extra pay for the sunday would you still strike? I mean sat and sun being normal working days with days off during the week instead and off say 2 weekends in 4.
If you are only getting your basic prior tax etc, would you still reject the proposal?

Skylinehead · 20-08-2013 07:48PM

Jumboman wrote: »

I'm talking about unions in general. Even if you don't care aboue bus drivers it helps everyone if their are good wages and conditions across the economy. Your boss could come and say to you, look everyone in the country has had a pay cut its now time for you to have a pay cut.

I'm on a contract, so no, he couldn't. But if I wasn't, then that's the way it is. I can accept it or look for a new job.

Certain bus routes will never be profitable. I don't know how you can say these aren't wage cuts when drivers will go home with less money.

So where do you propose €11 million comes from? Drivers will go home with less money, yes. That's what happens when companies make losses. Would you rather they were made redundant?

CIE is a state company.

I wasn't referring to CIE, I was referring to your odd notion that the government can (and wants to) cut everybody's wages.

Austerity has failed spectacularly by cutting everyones wages it will mean less money for the disabled and pensioners.

Stop trying to deflect the issue with the generic "austerity" argument. You can't bring pensioners into this without them being greatly inconvenienced by the strike.

They are trying to "bring down the cost of doing business" ie internal devaluation which means slashing wages across the economy.

They can't slash wages, if they don't pay wages.

Skylinehead · 20-08-2013 07:49PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€3 a day for unlimited travel is amazing value. Saying it isnt is just arguing for the sake of it.

For a student. For an adult it's €125 for 30 days, which is ridiculous compared even to more expensive cities like London.

Hilly Bill · 20-08-2013 07:56PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

For a student. For an adult it's €125 for 30 days, which is ridiculous compared even to more expensive cities like London.

Its still decent enough.

What CIE should do is scrap the student fares or bring the fares down to that level.

Foxtrol · 20-08-2013 07:58PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If they put you on a 5/7 rosta with no extra pay for the sunday would you still strike? I mean sat and sun being normal working days with days off during the week instead and off say 2 weekends in 4.
If you are only getting your basic prior tax etc, would you still reject the proposal?

Of course they’d reject it, I think it’s becoming clear at this stage that the DB drivers are up there atop of the most deluded, pig headed groups out there. Even ignoring this current situation, where their core pay isn’t being touched, look at when they went on strike/or threatened strikes before over changes to bus routes and maximum hours worked safety standards. They simply refuse to change/adapt with the times.

Though DB drivers being pig headed wouldn’t be too much a shocking newsflash to many who get buses everyday.

end of the road · 20-08-2013 08:24PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

What’s being proposed here is proper tendering and control where the problems you cite above wouldn’t be an issue.

yes they would even with proper tendering, the only way one can guarintee a proper service to the vunerable is via a state run public transport service free of private shareholders

Foxtrol wrote: »

Quite frankly what you’re doing above is fear mongering and you haven't been able to point out one reason why if the process was done correctly it would be bad for the customer.

i have pointed it out many times and i'm not fear mongering at all but telling the truth

JRant · 20-08-2013 08:25PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its still decent enough.

What CIE should do is scrap the student fares or bring the fares down to that level.

They should also have everyone with a free travel pass scan on, similar to the leap card. That way there would be data on exactly what level of subvention is applicable.

I'd like to see a fares divided into zones rather than number of stages.

There is also a need for more inspectors. I can count on one hand the number of inspectors i've seen in the last 4 years.

end of the road · 20-08-2013 08:34PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

I struggle to grasp how these individuals think they can curry favour with the public by holding them to ransom.

absolutely you do struggle to grasp how these individuals think they can curry favour with the public by holding them to ransom, because they weren't holding them to ransom at all, if people need to get somewhere they will find a way, the holding them to ransom excuse is just thrown out by those who can't be bothered to find an alternative while a strike is on for a couple of days

end of the road · 20-08-2013 08:38PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Well DB have proved time and again that despite repeated hikes in fares and cuts to some routes that they and their staff don’t have the ability/desire to make it profitable (or bring it near to breaking even).

because it can't happen, so pointless suggesting privatisation

Foxtrol wrote: »

The fact that not one single route makes a profit is astounding and is enough reason to start a tendering process.

even though it won't change anything apart from the money going to private shareholders, great

shuyin1 · 20-08-2013 08:39PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its still decent enough.

What CIE should do is scrap the student fares or bring the fares down to that level.

Costs me €2.80 to town , its expensive. Not everyone travels these journeys systematically so your average monthly/annual prices are not indicative of the price of fares. It's unlikely they'll reduce fares to student rates, more than likely it'll go to €2.90 soon.

Hilly Bill · 20-08-2013 08:58PM

You get a lift into town for less than the price of a pint or a brekkie roll. How is €2.80 expensive?

JRant · 20-08-2013 09:08PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You get a lift into town for less than the price of a pint or a brekkie roll. How is €2.80 expensive?

The problem lies with the pricing system really. It's far to convoluted and makes short journeys more expensive than they should be.

K-9 · 20-08-2013 10:01PM

JRant wrote: »

All very valid points. However the points raised about fare increases and route culling being a drawback for privatisation seem to apply to the current set-up.

If the subvention has been cut and less people using it with the recession, what else can they do? The reason they get the subvention is to help with uneconomic routes, so cut the subvention, cut........................

JRant · 20-08-2013 10:13PM

K-9 wrote: »

If the subvention has been cut and less people using it with the recession, what else can they do? The reason they get the subvention is to help with uneconomic routes, so cut the subvention, cut........................

Was it a case of the subvention being cut and then the routes or the other way round?

Surely they shound have a better system in place to quantify the level of subvention needed.

shuyin1 · 20-08-2013 10:22PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You get a lift into town for less than the price of a pint or a brekkie roll. How is €2.80 expensive?

Public transport is meant to be an inexpensive option which passengers forgoes convenience as a trade off. Waiting in the crap weather for erratic arrivals of buses is why I see it as expensive. Your breakfast roll and pint are priced accordingly to market demand, they do not represent benchmarks for value for money.

devnull · 20-08-2013 10:31PM

The initial cut in subsidy by a couple of million between Dec 2008 and Dec 2009 was before there were many changes to routes, so in that case it was before the routes were cut.

Network direct was then announced which cut the fleet by 150 buses over the course of the next 18-24 months or so and then the PSO was reduced little by little as the number of services operated got cut back.

Whilst direct subsidy is down, remember than in 2006-2008 Dublin Bus self funded 400 vehicles and in 2012 the state funded 80 new vehicles at a cost of €26m for the company. The vehicles are owned by the state but leased to DB free of charge.

There are another 80 buses being delivered this year, no figures have been released but I'd say the cost was similar to the last batch.

Hilly Bill · 20-08-2013 11:05PM

shuyin1 wrote: »

Public transport is meant to be an inexpensive option which passengers forgoes convenience as a trade off. Waiting in the crap weather for erratic arrivals of buses is why I see it as expensive. Your breakfast roll and pint are priced accordingly to market demand, they do not represent benchmarks for value for money.

It does if you also get beans and mushrooms in your brekkie roll.

.

You cant blame the bus on the weather. I think it should be rounded up to €3 to do away with the small change. At €3 to go into town its still good value.

Stheno · 20-08-2013 11:07PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It does if you also get beans and mushrooms in your brekkie roll. .

You cant blame the bus on the weather. I think it should be rounded up to €3 to do away with the small change. At €3 to go into town its still good value.

I'd rather pay the Swords express the €3 they charge off peak than take a 41 into town, and frequently do

cdebru · 21-08-2013 12:30AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Why is social welfare payments the automatic comparison supporters of drivers make when their wages are questioned? I’m starting to understand why DB has to pay a bonus to staff for showing up to work.

Rather than trying to compare the wage to people who ‘do nothing’ maybe try to compare the wage and perks to people who have spent 3/4/5 years in college and then you’ll understand how it can be deemed as a massive wage for the very low skill/training required to be a driver.

no the comparison is to show the ridiculousness of your arguement, if social welfare rates are higher than basic pay rates you can not be over paid end of story.

starting of salaries for a graduate are exactly that starting off salaries, and surely the same reasoning would apply to graduates as you apply to drivers if you are not happy with the remuneration find another job.

seems to me you are a little bitter you chose poorly in your cao forms and ended up with a **** job you don't like, stop blaming others and trying to make everyone else as miserable as you appear to be.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 12:37AM

devnull wrote: »

The initial cut in subsidy by a couple of million between Dec 2008 and Dec 2009 was before there were many changes to routes, so in that case it was before the routes were cut.

Network direct was then announced which cut the fleet by 150 buses over the course of the next 18-24 months or so and then the PSO was reduced little by little as the number of services operated got cut back.

Whilst direct subsidy is down, remember than in 2006-2008 Dublin Bus self funded 400 vehicles and in 2012 the state funded 80 new vehicles at a cost of €26m for the company. The vehicles are owned by the state but leased to DB free of charge.

There are another 80 buses being delivered this year, no figures have been released but I'd say the cost was similar to the last batch.

again neglecting the fact that the subvention was too low to begin with, and cutting a subvention at a time when the company has lost 20%of its passengers due to the recession defeats the purpose of a subvention.

fleet renewal is government policy, as set out in the NTA integrated transport plan, if it was not government policy DB would just make do with the buses they have.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 12:42AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If they put you on a 5/7 rosta with no extra pay for the sunday would you still strike? I mean sat and sun being normal working days with days off during the week instead and off say 2 weekends in 4.
If you are only getting your basic prior tax etc, would you still reject the proposal?

Sunday is not a normal work day, that is recognised in most businesses and employees are paid more for working on Sunday.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 12:47AM

Terry1985 wrote: »

So you don't agree that unions can go too far?
Like the public sector who had 'pay freezes' but still got their annual increments despite the country being bankrupt?

Getting 2.5 times your pay for working one day of the week as opposed to the next is the draconian idea.
Also the idea of resisting changes in practices... you're paid for a full days work so they should do whatever the management decides during those paid/overpaid hours.

No expecting people to work, for flat rate on Sundays when most people are spending time with their families is draconian. It is not 2.5 it is 2 which is the normal rate for Sunday work across industry even in non union work places.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 12:53AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

My question, which you so helpfully bolded, was that if tendering was done correctly what would be bad for the customer, care to answer?

IF it was done correctly, that is a massive IF we have such a **** poor record of regulation of any industry here, my money is on it would be a disaster in which some friend of FG or FF somehow wins a contract against the odds.

shuyin1 · 21-08-2013 01:18AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It does if you also get beans and mushrooms in your brekkie roll. .

You cant blame the bus on the weather. I think it should be rounded up to €3 to do away with the small change. At €3 to go into town its still good value.

It was the inconvenience of public transport I was referring to with regards to the bad weather

Consistency of standards is poor, especially when 3 buses of the same number fly by one after another. These 2 factors combined makes it expensive for what it provides.

Who in the world would ruin a breakfast roll with beans and mushrooms :P

blatantrereg · 21-08-2013 05:23AM

We all support the Dublin Bus workers.
Their salaries come from our taxes - i.e.: We support them.

cdebru · 21-08-2013 07:08AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

We all support the Dublin Bus workers.
Their salaries come from our taxes - i.e.: We support them.

No they don't, the state is paying for a service it views as essential, and not paying enough. That is no different than the state buying any service from a private or semi state company.except of course it chooses how much it should pay not the company.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 21-08-2013 07:09AM

i think the state should supply xbox ones. it sounds like they're going to be kind of expensive, that's just not right.

i guess maybe I could live with them just subsidising the kinect.

Hootanany · 21-08-2013 08:05AM

cdebru wrote: »

No expecting people to work, for flat rate on Sundays when most people are spending time with their families is draconian. It is not 2.5 it is 2 which is the normal rate for Sunday work across industry even in non union work places.

Barmen do waitresses, shoe shop workers I can go on?

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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