Is 17 too high for the Age of consent

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 9:32am

Pace2008 wrote: »

This was kinda the point I was going to get at.

the age of consent in Italy is 14, and their teen birth rate is much lower than Ireland's. The age of consent in the US is 18 and their teen birth is higher rate than both Ireland's and Italy's.The age of consent in Bulgaria is 14 and the teen birth rate is higher than all three aforementioned contries.

You know why? Because horny teenagers don't give a **** about an arbitrary piece of legislation, but they are influenced by - and this will sound familiar - social structure, educational systems, and social attitudes to sexuality.

You're completely and spectacularly missing the point of the age of consent. It's not about prosecuting horny teenagers from having sex. It's about prosecuting horny adults from having sex with horny teenagers.

So I'm still wondering why this silly piece of punitive legislation is in place as it is, working under the reasonable axioms that:

- it is not inherently wrong for teenagers to have sex
- punitive legislation that does not serve any tangible purpose is bad, especially when it involves, say, teenagers in consenting sexual relationships being branded as statutory rapists.

See above. The DPP has prosecutorial discretion when a case of two teenagers under the age of consent having sex is reported to the Gardai by a guardian of one or both of the teenagers.

And in what way are they protected by being criminalised? Bearing in mind I'm talking about two teenagers of the same age, or very close in age.

The intent of the law is not to criminalise teenagers. It's not as clear cut as you'd like to make out.

Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

"Having my way" involves relaxing a law that criminalises teenagers without serving any apparent purpose. I'd also conjecture that people of a mind with me are not as small a minority as you seem to think, or even a minority at all.

The law serves no apparent purpose to you. It serves a purpose though to teenagers who are manipulated into having a sexual relationship with an adult above the age of consent.

I have no idea how my views are selfish, given that I'm not below the age of consent and I don't have any desire to have sex with anyone below the age of consent.

Well I don't see then why you're getting so bent out of shape about it when you assume the law will never need to apply to you.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 9:40am

Alaskimo-cake wrote: »

Sorry, can I come back to this for just a moment. What. The actual. Fook?! You have serious, first-hand experience of this happening, as opposed to just idle hearsay and scaremongering?

That made my blood run cold. My god-daughter is 9. I'm horrified. Is it really "not as uncommon as I'd think"?!

I believe her exact words were -

"I gave him a blow job to leave us alone and he wouldn't, so we locked him in the bathroom". The bathroom she is referring to are the toilets at the back of the classroom.

It's not scaremongering at all, and there are plenty more common examples I could give. That was just one off the top of my head. There are certainly more normalised (for lack of a better word) examples of 13 year olds wanting to move out of home to live with their 20 year old boyfriend, or the 15 year old teenager who thinks the sun, moon and stars shines out of his 30 year old boyfriends ass hole.

seamus · 13-08-2013 9:44am

Actually I'd say raise it to 18 with a 2-year buffer. So where the difference in age does not exceed two years, there is no criminal offence. This means that 18 and 19 year olds can bang their 16/17 year old partners with impunity. Then it should be a lesser criminal offence (i.e. not a sex offence) where the difference is between 2 and 4 years. Outside of that it's a sex offence.

I would also put in a special clause where either party is under 13. If it's "legal", then social services should immediately get involved to try and put a stop to it, with legal sanctions against both sets of parents if it continues. If it's "illegal" (i.e. a 14 year old and a 10 year old), then social services need to be involved and the parents of the older child convicted of a criminal offence.

Sounds complicated, but I've summarised it in this handy table
Child1\Child2|<11|11-13|13|14|15|16|17|18
<11|SS|SS|PO|PO|SO|SO|SO|SO
11-13|SS|SS|SS|SS|CO|CO|SO|SO
13|PO|SS|OK|OK|OK|CO|CO|SO
14|PO|SS|OK|OK|OK|OK|CO|SO
15|SO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK|OK|CO
16|SO|CO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK|OK
17|SO|SO|CO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK
18|SO|SO|SO|SO|CO|OK|OK|OK

SS = Social Services
PO = Parental Offence
CO = Criminal Offence
SO = Sex Offence

Of course, come back to me when my daughter is 13 and I'll tell you if this has changed

floggg · 13-08-2013 9:49am

Czarcasm wrote: »

We're not living in Saudi Arabia though, are we?

Also it's worth noting that as long as the age difference IS only two years, the teenager will NOT be put on the sex offenders register.

If teenagers think they're old enough and bold enough to engage in sexual activity and consider themselves mature enough to have sex, then shouldn't they also be considered mature enough to deal with the possible adverse consequences of same?

Would you like to see a double standard apply where they're considered adult enough to have sex, but they're only kids when it comes to dealing with the consequences if things don't go to plan?

Do you not (your) contrary position is a double standard - you're not old enough to have sex but if you do you're old enough to be accept responsibility for your actions under criminal law.

Like many I think there should be a two tiered system, perhaps with some form of rebuttable presumption that consent was not free and informed in cases falling out side the "teenage" tier.

I think you need to protect kids but at the same time you have to recognise that this is something kids have always and will always do. 100 years ok most 16 years olds were probably already married with their first born on the way!

So I don't think you should criminalise them and put their future in jeopardy when they do.

Edit - actually the rebuttable presumption should only apply up to a certain point - eg a 19 year old with a 16 year old.

After that it should apply strictly (assuming there was knowledge or recklessness regarding the younger persons age).

Amirani · 13-08-2013 9:52am

I agree with that proposed setup for the most part Seamus, though the prosecution of parents may be a difficult issue. What happen if a 13 year old has sex with a 9 year old in school for example? Who does the responsibility lie with in that situation?

Conor Bourke · 13-08-2013 9:54am

Czarcasm wrote: »

I believe her exact words were -

"I gave him a blow job to leave us alone and he wouldn't, so we locked him in the bathroom". The bathroom she is referring to are the toilets at the back of the classroom.

It's not scaremongering at all, and there are plenty more common examples I could give. That was just one off the top of my head. There are certainly more normalised (for lack of a better word) examples of 13 year olds wanting to move out of home to live with their 20 year old boyfriend, or the 15 year old teenager who thinks the sun, moon and stars shines out of his 30 year old boyfriends ass hole.

But Who's exact words are they though? Where are you getting this example? I refuse to believe that 8 year olds giving 11 year olds blowjobs in the school toilet is "not as uncommon as I'd think" ie becoming the norm

My head isn't completely in the sand btw, I accept it's a sad fact that kids are becoming much more sexualised at a much younger age these days but surely an incident such a the one you've outlined would still be considered exceptional?

floggg · 13-08-2013 10:13am

Czarcasm wrote: »

I see, and do Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all have the exact same social structure, educational system, social attitude to sexuality as we do here in Ireland?

I didn't think so. So the comparison to other countries is invalid.
.

That's a bit of a cop out. No country will have the exact same social structure as us.

So you can dismiss positive results from any social policy changes in another country on that basis.

Anyway, if you feel there are relevant societal or cultural differences, rather than just saw it won't work why not look at everything that makes their approach more successful then ours (if indeed they do have lower teen pregnancy rates) and try and copy that.

If your concern really is the protection of children then surely you should want the most effective method to be used, rather than just sticking to what has proven to be less successful.

I also fail to see how criminalising children who engage in sexual activity together before the age of consent is protecting them.

You're not protecting the kids in question - you're potentially ruining their lives.

And as there is evidently no great deterrent effect, given the prevalance of underage sex, the law isn't achieving anything of benefit for those kids.

If you want protection then certainly come down the heavy on somebody mature enough to know better. Throw the book at somebody who knowingly has sex with an underage person.

But criminalising kids for doing what their bodies are screaming at them to do isn't doing anything to protect them from each other.

At that age their bodies are programmed to start thinking about sex 24/7. They are going to want to do it no matter what the law says.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 10:18am

Alaskimo-cake wrote: »

But Who's exact words are they though? Where are you getting this example? I refuse to believe that 8 year olds giving 11 year olds blowjobs in the school toilet is "not as uncommon as I'd think" ie becoming the norm

My head isn't completely in the sand btw, I accept it's a sad fact that kids are becoming much more sexualised at a much younger age these days but surely an incident such a the one you've outlined would still be considered exceptional?

They're the words of an eight year old girl who thought it was hilarious that herself and her friend had, as they saw it "gotten one over on" the 11 year old boy. She didn't see anything wrong with giving him a blow job, but thought she and her friend were clever for locking him in the toilet.

I mean, understandably, it's distasteful and I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking it's bullshít. I had a chat with a friend of mine then who coaches a team of underage girls in GAA, and she was telling me that the stuff she hears nine year olds come out with in the dressing room, she was shocked by it.

Closer to home, I have an eight year old boy myself, who hasn't a bulls notion what a blow job is, but by contrast, my sister in law 15 years ago when she was 10, I was having to talk to her about sex and sexuality and her sexual health.

It depends really on what you're used to tbh whether it fazes you or not. If you're used to hearing about 12 year old's having sex, you're not going to be so fazed by it or think that it's uncommon, but if you're not used to hearing about 12 year olds having sex, it's gonna raise an eyebrow.

The incident I've outlined would be exceptional on it's own as a one off, but among regular occurrences of underage sex, it's really not that uncommon.

ibarelycare · 13-08-2013 10:35am

Czarcasm wrote: »

They're the words of an eight year old girl who thought it was hilarious that herself and her friend had, as they saw it "gotten one over on" the 11 year old boy. She didn't see anything wrong with giving him a blow job, but thought she and her friend were clever for locking him in the toilet.

I mean, understandably, it's distasteful and I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking it's bullshít. I had a chat with a friend of mine then who coaches a team of underage girls in GAA, and she was telling me that the stuff she hears nine year olds come out with in the dressing room, she was shocked by it.

Closer to home, I have an eight year old boy myself, who hasn't a bulls notion what a blow job is, but by contrast, my sister in law 15 years ago when she was 10, I was having to talk to her about sex and sexuality and her sexual health.

It depends really on what you're used to tbh whether it fazes you or not. If you're used to hearing about 12 year old's having sex, you're not going to be so fazed by it or think that it's uncommon, but if you're not used to hearing about 12 year olds having sex, it's gonna raise an eyebrow.

The incident I've outlined would be exceptional on it's own as a one off, but among regular occurrences of underage sex, it's really not that uncommon.

Why are you talking to 8 and 10 year olds about blowjobs and sex?

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 10:44am

floggg wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop out. No country will have the exact same social structure as us.

So you can dismiss positive results from any social policy changes in another country on that basis.

Anyway, if you feel there are relevant societal or cultural differences, rather than just saw it won't work why not look at everything that makes their approach more successful then ours (if indeed they do have lower teen pregnancy rates) and try and copy that.

I hope she doesn't mind me qouting her here, but Shenshen is German, so she knows a hell of a lot more about how things work over there than I do, and this is how things work in Germany-

Shenshen wrote: »

I come from a place where it's 14.

But then again, I also come for a place where sex education will start in kindergarden, for those kids whose parents haven't started to explain things to them yet. Contraception is freely available, and abortions while not strictly legal are not punishable by law.

I think when it comes to unwanted pregnancies, the age of consent is about as important and influential as Kim Jong Un's opinion on stripey underwear. If you don't teach kids how to play it safe and why to play it safe, it won't matter if they start shagging aged 15 or aged 18.

The reason, why you cannot compare two different countries, is because there are far more factors to take into account and different laws that will apply, and like I said - even the way sex education is taught over there is completely different to here. It's a fantasy to think you could take German social structure and their society's attitude to sex and apply it to Ireland. It just can not be done.

If your concern really is the protection of children then surely you should want the most effective method to be used, rather than just sticking to what has proven to be less successful.

I do, of course, but as Shenshen points out, when we talk about the issues involved in sexuality among young people, the age of consent laws are about as relevant as Kim Jong Un's opinion on stripey underwear. Tell me, what difference would lowering the age of consent to say 12, actually do to prevent say for example since you want to concentrate on teenage pregnancy. What difference will the age of consent make there? None.

The issues are more than just about the age of consent, but those are issues for another thread. This one is about the age of consent and why it's necessary, and I've already outlined earlier why it's necessary.

I also fail to see how criminalising children who engage in sexual activity together before the age of consent is protecting them.

It's not about criminalising children, pain in my face from saying that. It's about preventing adults from engaging in sexual activity with people under the age of consent.

You're not protecting the kids in question - you're potentially ruining their lives.

I thought "Won't somebody think of the children!" was MY line!

And as there is evidently no great deterrent effect, given the prevalance of underage sex, the law isn't achieving anything of benefit for those kids.

It IS kinda handy though when it has the benefit of deterring adults from engaging in sexual relations with minors under the age of consent.

If you want protection then certainly come down the heavy on somebody mature enough to know better. Throw the book at somebody who knowingly has sex with an underage person.

But criminalising kids for doing what their bodies are screaming at them to do isn't doing anything to protect them from each other.

At that age their bodies are programmed to start thinking about sex 24/7. They are going to want to do it no matter what the law says.[/QUOTE]

Not ALL kids are going to want to do it, and no their bodies are not programmed to do anything. There's a lot more to it than just the biological aspects of sexuality, and some teenagers can actually exercise self control and inform themselves and seek out the facts and discuss sex in a mature fashion well beyond their years. Shouldn't you give teenagers some credit that they're not all sexually obsessed as you think they are?

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 10:47am

ibarelycare wrote: »

Why are you talking to 8 and 10 year olds about blowjobs and sex?

Why are you looking to make out on a public forum like I have some sort of sinister ulterior motive in doing so?

Conor Bourke · 13-08-2013 10:50am

Czarcasm wrote: »

Why are you looking to make out on a public forum like I have some sort of sinister ulterior motive in doing so?

I wondered the same thing as ibarelycare to be fair. You have a son but you don't mention that these were friends of his, or that it was the children's parents who told you what happened, so if you decline to provide us with any context for these stories, it does make it sound a bit creepy.

ibarelycare · 13-08-2013 10:50am

Czarcasm wrote: »

Why are you looking to make out on a public forum like I have some sort of sinister ulterior motive in doing so?

What makes you think I intended it in that way? I just asked you a question.

Shenshen · 13-08-2013 11:04am

Czarcasm wrote: »

I hope she doesn't mind me qouting her here, but Shenshen is German, so she knows a hell of a lot more about how things work over there than I do, and this is how things work in Germany-

The reason, why you cannot compare two different countries, is because there are far more factors to take into account and different laws that will apply, and like I said - even the way sex education is taught over there is completely different to here. It's a fantasy to think you could take German social structure and their society's attitude to sex and apply it to Ireland. It just can not be done.

If you don't mind me butting in here :

While I agree that trying to take for example one aspect of German law (age of consent) and apply it to Ireland without any further consideration won't work at all, I'm not entirely convinced that changing social attitudes through education, a decent health support system, etc. and then correcting some aspects of the law is such a bad idea.

As was pointed out, Germany has a comparably low rate of teenage pregnancies. And I do think that the reason for that is to be found in their general approach to sexual education and information. Why would that be a bad place to start here in Ireland?
Teach children about their bodies from a very early age, keeping it age-appropriate of course. From what I recall growing up in Germany, by the time you reach puberty you're pretty fed up with hearing about sex, reproduction, sexual health, contraception... but it does work.
"No condom, no sex" gets drilled into your brain so much you cannot picture one without the other.
Aged 13, I would have been able to tell you every potential way of contracting HIV if you had woken me up at 3am and asked me.

I would regard all of this information as absolutely vital, yet talking to people here I find the sex education they received was pretty much a nun showing up in class when they were around 16 telling them that sex is like two rain drops running down a window and flowing together...
Ok, they've figured a few things out for themselves since, but how could you expect them to teach their children all they need to know?

The current situation in Germany didn't come about overnight, it was a long development from a very conservative, non-sex society in the 1950 to now, but there's no reason Ireland couldn't reach a similar point of liberal laws and low teenage pregnancies and low rates of STDs, but they would need to start somewhere.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 11:07am

Alaskimo-cake wrote: »

I wondered the same thing as ibarelycare to be fair. You have a son but you don't mention that these were friends of his, or that it was the children's parents who told you what happened, so if you decline to provide us with any context for these stories, it does make it sound a bit creepy.

That's fair enough. I figured I'd be all day providing context but the long and short of it so to speak then is that I work with an outreach organisation in a regeneration area that provides support to low income and one parent families so stories like these are not uncommon. I'm also on the board of management at my son's school so the issue tends to come up when we are discussing child protection laws.

Garda vetted separately for both positions btw.

ibarelycare wrote: »

What makes you think I intended it in that way? I just asked you a question.

If you actually had read the post in which I mentioned the 10 year old, you would have read that it was my sister in law when she was 10. She's 25 now btw and in a healthy sexual relationship with her boyfriend. I don't particularly care to be privy to the details of her sex life, but sometimes she will look to discuss issues she may be having in her life in general with me as we have a close relationship.

I would always say to any child that they should talk to their parents first and foremost about any issues they are having in their lives, and they shouldn't be afraid to do so, but some teenagers aren't comfortable talking to their parents about sex, and they're going off the ham fisted sex ed they get in school, the misinformed opinions of their friends, and then of course the subjective opinions and objective articles they read on the internet.

Grayson · 13-08-2013 11:08am

seamus wrote: »

Actually I'd say raise it to 18 with a 2-year buffer. So where the difference in age does not exceed two years, there is no criminal offence. This means that 18 and 19 year olds can bang their 16/17 year old partners with impunity. Then it should be a lesser criminal offence (i.e. not a sex offence) where the difference is between 2 and 4 years. Outside of that it's a sex offence.

I would also put in a special clause where either party is under 13. If it's "legal", then social services should immediately get involved to try and put a stop to it, with legal sanctions against both sets of parents if it continues. If it's "illegal" (i.e. a 14 year old and a 10 year old), then social services need to be involved and the parents of the older child convicted of a criminal offence.

Sounds complicated, but I've summarised it in this handy table
Child1\Child2|<11|11-13|13|14|15|16|17|18
<11|SS|SS|PO|PO|SO|SO|SO|SO
11-13|SS|SS|SS|SS|CO|CO|SO|SO
13|PO|SS|OK|OK|OK|CO|CO|SO
14|PO|SS|OK|OK|OK|OK|CO|SO
15|SO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK|OK|CO
16|SO|CO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK|OK
17|SO|SO|CO|CO|OK|OK|OK|OK
18|SO|SO|SO|SO|CO|OK|OK|OK

SS = Social Services
PO = Parental Offence
CO = Criminal Offence
SO = Sex Offence

Of course, come back to me when my daughter is 13 and I'll tell you if this has changed

make the difference 720 days rather than two calender years. There's no difference between someone who's 17 years 364 days and someone who's 18.

Don't a few European countries already implement this? I means that teens who are going to have sex with others aren't criminals but a 40 year old who tries it with them is going to be arrested because he is a predator.

We're a very backwards country. We infantalise (SP?) our children. We make their childhoods last so long that 18 year olds barely have an understanding of how the world works. We need to tackle things early so that by the time they hit puberty and the world starts changing they already know what's going on. At 15 they are going to be sexually mature but because of us, they'll still have the minds of children.

ibarelycare · 13-08-2013 11:19am

Czarcasm wrote: »

If you actually had read the post in which I mentioned the 10 year old, you would have read that it was my sister in law when she was 10. She's 25 now btw and in a healthy sexual relationship with her boyfriend. I don't particularly care to be privy to the details of her sex life, but sometimes she will look to discuss issues she may be having in her life in general with me as we have a close relationship.

I would always say to any child that they should talk to their parents first and foremost about any issues they are having in their lives, and they shouldn't be afraid to do so, but some teenagers aren't comfortable talking to their parents about sex, and they're going off the ham fisted sex ed they get in school, the misinformed opinions of their friends, and then of course the subjective opinions and objective articles they read on the internet.

I did read your post. I think the fact that it was your SIL is irrelevant. The fact that she is now in a "healthy sexual relationship" with her boyfriend is also completely irrelevant. You're both adults now so what you decide to discuss is your business. However you, as a 22-year-old man, discussing sex with a 10-year-old child is highly inappropriate, unless you are the child's parent, guardian or teacher. She was years off from being a teenager at that age.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 11:21am

Shenshen wrote: »

The current situation in Germany didn't come about overnight, it was a long development from a very conservative, non-sex society in the 1950 to now, but there's no reason Ireland couldn't reach a similar point of liberal laws and low teenage pregnancies and low rates of STDs, but they would need to start somewhere.

They ARE trying to change that now Shenshen with the introduction in schools of the staysafe program (http://www.staysafe.ie/), but IMO, this doesn't even scratch the surface, and it's still badly implemented and misguided, which is why I would prefer to see it made the responsibility of parents or guardians to educate their children when it comes to sex education.

Some parents in Ireland don't want to do this, and prefer to defer responsibility for their children's sex ed to the school, or simply not talk about it at all with their children, and this is an attitude that as a society we have to deal with, instead of leaving it up to the school or the government or anybody else just so we can avoid having an "awkward" conversation with our children. If WE think sex is awkward, can we really blame children and teenagers for picking up on that and thinking it's something they can't talk about?

As you quite rightly point out - It took Germany 60 years to get to the point they're at now where sexuality is as openly discussed as what you had for breakfast this morning; but here in Ireland, some people expect that to happen overnight just because they think "if the law is changed, all our problems will be solved". That to me is pie in the sky thinking because in reality, you can change all the laws you want overnight, but you can't change people's attitudes overnight.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 11:27am

ibarelycare wrote: »

I did read your post. I think the fact that it was your SIL is irrelevant. The fact that she is now in a "healthy sexual relationship" with her boyfriend is also completely irrelevant. You're both adults now so what you decide to discuss is your business. However you, as a 22-year-old man, discussing sex with a 10-year-old child is highly inappropriate, unless you are the child's parent, guardian or teacher. She was years off from being a teenager at that age.

With all due respect, I'll take the opinion of those people that actually know me over yours then.

ibarelycare · 13-08-2013 11:32am

Czarcasm wrote: »

With all due respect, I'll take the opinion of those people that actually know me over yours then.

With all due respect, you actually disgust and disturb me.

Shenshen · 13-08-2013 11:33am

Czarcasm wrote: »

They ARE trying to change that now Shenshen with the introduction in schools of the staysafe program (http://www.staysafe.ie/), but IMO, this doesn't even scratch the surface, and it's still badly implemented and misguided, which is why I would prefer to see it made the responsibility of parents or guardians to educate their children when it comes to sex education.

Some parents in Ireland don't want to do this, and prefer to defer responsibility for their children's sex ed to the school, or simply not talk about it at all with their children, and this is an attitude that as a society we have to deal with, instead of leaving it up to the school or the government or anybody else just so we can avoid having an "awkward" conversation with our children. If WE think sex is awkward, can we really blame children and teenagers for picking up on that and thinking it's something they can't talk about?

As you quite rightly point out - It took Germany 60 years to get to the point they're at now where sexuality is as openly discussed as what you had for breakfast this morning; but here in Ireland, some people expect that to happen overnight just because they think "if the law is changed, all our problems will be solved". That to me is pie in the sky thinking because in reality, you can change all the laws you want overnight, but you can't change people's attitudes overnight.

As I had already said, I would be wary of having only parents and/or other legal guardians providing sex education and information to their children.

Many people always seem to assume that sex education is simply telling children about what mommy and daddy do to make babies, and that's it.
And this is exactly where I think the danger lurks - how many parents do you know who would be able to tell their children of different types of STDs, and how to guard against them?
How many would be able to educate their children on the symptoms they'd need to watch out for if they suspect they caught something?
How many parents know in detail what different types of contraception are available, how they work, what they protect against, how effective they are?
And that's not even touching in aspects such as LGBT, asexuality, fetishisms, etc.

And how would they know, they were never given that information themselves, after all.
I think if we are serious about reducing the rates of teen pregnancies and STDs, we need to educate and inform. And I think to rely on the parents for that would be rather naive, you'd first need a massive program actually educating the parents.
I think we have schools in place where qualified individuals educate and instruct children on a large variety of subjects. All we need to do is improve the quality of the education provided where sex is concerned.

Shenshen · 13-08-2013 11:37am

ibarelycare wrote: »

However you, as a 22-year-old man, discussing sex with a 10-year-old child is highly inappropriate, unless you are the child's parent, guardian or teacher. She was years off from being a teenager at that age.

I'm sorry, but I don't get this... if she asked him, what was wrong with him replying?

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 11:45am

ibarelycare wrote: »

With all due respect, you actually disgust and disturb me.

Your opinion is perfectly understandable given that you really don't know the first thing about me. I would suggest we leave it there now and get back to the subject of the thread rather than let it descend into further petty insults and then have to be locked by a Moderator.

This thread isn't about me, it's about the age of consent in Ireland.

Shenshen wrote: »

As I had already said, I would be wary of having only parents and/or other legal guardians providing sex education and information to their children.

Many people always seem to assume that sex education is simply telling children about what mommy and daddy do to make babies, and that's it.
And this is exactly where I think the danger lurks - how many parents do you know who would be able to tell their children of different types of STDs, and how to guard against them?
How many would be able to educate their children on the symptoms they'd need to watch out for if they suspect they caught something?
How many parents know in detail what different types of contraception are available, how they work, what they protect against, how effective they are?
And that's not even touching in aspects such as LGBT, asexuality, fetishisms, etc.

And how would they know, they were never given that information themselves, after all.
I think if we are serious about reducing the rates of teen pregnancies and STDs, we need to educate and inform. And I think to rely on the parents for that would be rather naive, you'd first need a massive program actually educating the parents.
I think we have schools in place where qualified individuals educate and instruct children on a large variety of subjects. All we need to do is improve the quality of the education provided where sex is concerned.

I completely agree with all of the above Shenshen, but that's where the 60 years comes in that it'll take to change attitudes in Irish society to sexuality. If we as a generation start now to educate ourselves about sexuality, we are better informed as a primary resource to impart that knowledge to our children. Our children are then better informed to pass that knowledge and what knowledge THEY have gained, on to THEIR children, and that's how you normalise sexuality and are able to discuss it like they do in Germany today, because they've taken the whole "No sex please, we're Irish" attitude out of the equation.

Conor Bourke · 13-08-2013 11:48am

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't get this... if she asked him, what was wrong with him replying?

I don't really think it's an appropriate conversation for a 10 year old girl to have with her 20 something brother in law. Czarcasm said he always advises children to talk to their parents about these things, but he didn't in this case? I get that it's a difficult age for a girl to ask delicate questions of their parents, but he could have referred her to his wife- her big sister!

Shenshen · 13-08-2013 11:54am

Czarcasm wrote: »

I completely agree with all of the above Shenshen, but that's where the 60 years comes in that it'll take to change attitudes in Irish society to sexuality. If we as a generation start now to educate ourselves about sexuality, we are better informed as a primary resource to impart that knowledge to our children. Our children are then better informed to pass that knowledge and what knowledge THEY have gained, on to THEIR children, and that's how you normalise sexuality and are able to discuss it like they do in Germany today, because they've taken the whole "No sex please, we're Irish" attitude out of the equation.

I'd still have to point to schools as the main distributors of knowledge, sorry.

Even growing up in Germany, my mother never spoke about anything sexual. Not that she objected to it, she just felt she knew so very little about it she didn't feel up to the task.

I was lucky that my mother's best friend had no such hang-ups and was happy to go into details that I hadn't felt confident enough to ask about at school.

Looking back now, there was quite a network in place to make sure every question would be answered. If I hadn't been able to talk to my mother's friend, I would always have had the option to write to several teenager magazines (most notably a magazine called "Bravo"), which had a dedicated team of doctors and psychologists who would reply to you. Some of those letters and replies would be printed each week in a dedicated section of the magazine as well, so even reading that might well already answer the question you might have.

And on top of that, there were support hotlines, I seem to recall.

Shenshen · 13-08-2013 11:56am

Alaskimo-cake wrote: »

I don't really think it's an appropriate conversation for a 10 year old girl to have with her 20 something brother in law. Czarcasm said he always advises children to talk to their parents about these things, but he didn't in this case? I get that it's a difficult age for a girl to ask delicate questions of their parents, but he could have referred her to his wife- her big sister!

Nope, still don't get it... if the 10-year-old feels she needs to ask a question, and he is the person she chooses to ask, why not respect her choice?

As I said, I had lengthy chats with my mother's best friend at the time, I wouldn't have been much older than 10 and she would have been in her 30s. Why would that be inappropriate?

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 12:00pm

Alaskimo-cake wrote: »

I don't really think it's an appropriate conversation for a 10 year old girl to have with her 20 something brother in law. Czarcasm said he always advises children to talk to their parents about these things, but he didn't in this case? I get that it's a difficult age for a girl to ask delicate questions of their parents, but he could have referred her to his wife- her big sister!

See this is why I said I'd be all day providing context. I DID advise my sister in law to talk to her mother first, she wasn't comfortable doing that, I told her she could talk to her two older sisters about it and I told her that I would say it to my wife (who was then my girlfriend) that her sister needed to talk to her. She wasn't comfortable with that. She didn't feel comfortable talking to another adult about her situation, so as uncomfortable as it was for me I listened to what she had to tell me and then advised her on a course of action. She took that course of action.

Anyone that honestly thinks I could possibly enjoy hearing a ten year old talking about herself having troubles with an issue involving sex, especially when I have to look her in the eye after the fact and know what she went through, yeah, whatever. I wanted to keep it civil, but I really couldn't give a flying fcuk for their opinion of me as a person tbh.

Mike 1972 · 13-08-2013 12:29pm

What about TWO ages of consent.

Reduce the current "statutory rape" age to 12 and create a new lesser offence to cover sex with 12 to 15 year olds with a provision to class it as a misdemeanor if the age gap is less than four years and make it all gender neutral.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 12:33pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

What about TWO ages of consent.

Reduce the current "statutory rape" age to 12 and create a new lesser offence to cover sex with 12 to 15 year olds with a provision to class it as a misdemeanor if the age gap is less than four years and make it all gender neutral.

The only thing about that Mike, and Seamus' table, is that it creates an even greyer area in what is already a very grey area. The age of consent isn't about prosecuting teenagers for having sex, it's about preventing adults from engaging in sexual relations with minors.

Czarcasm · 13-08-2013 12:50pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'd still have to point to schools as the main distributors of knowledge, sorry.

Even growing up in Germany, my mother never spoke about anything sexual. Not that she objected to it, she just felt she knew so very little about it she didn't feel up to the task.

I was lucky that my mother's best friend had no such hang-ups and was happy to go into details that I hadn't felt confident enough to ask about at school.

Looking back now, there was quite a network in place to make sure every question would be answered. If I hadn't been able to talk to my mother's friend, I would always have had the option to write to several teenager magazines (most notably a magazine called "Bravo"), which had a dedicated team of doctors and psychologists who would reply to you. Some of those letters and replies would be printed each week in a dedicated section of the magazine as well, so even reading that might well already answer the question you might have.

And on top of that, there were support hotlines, I seem to recall.

The reason Shenshen why I encourage young people to talk to their parents about sex, and why I encourage parents to talk to their children about sex, is because it encourages the relationship between them, as in- Children feel more confident talking to their parents because they know they CAN talk to them, and parents then are aware too of what their children are thinking regarding sexual matters.

The people that know the child best then are their parents, and so when it comes to a child asking questions that the parent can't answer, THAT'S where the support network should come into place, so that both parent and child can inform themselves and discuss the issues such as for example LGBT issues, etc.

The parent will know when the child is mature enough to discuss different aspects of sexuality as opposed to a blanket "read off a script" so to speak talk about sexuality given to 30 odd children in a class where the children are at all different stages developmentally speaking as regards their intellectual ability to process information and their individual maturity levels.

That's why too when you mentioned the likes of magazines where you could anonymously write to doctors and psychologists, I'd be wary of them, because while they are experts in their field, they would be aware too of the fact that they don't personally know how the child is going to interpret that information (two different children even are going to read a printed article and derive two totally different points of view from it and how it relates to them), and therein lies the possibility for the child to be misinformed, whereas the parent or guardian acts almost as a buffer to how much their child can mentally process when children and young people are being bombarded from every angle with skewered images of sexuality.

The parent in that case, as the child's parent, has a duty towards their child to inform themselves first, so that they can better inform their children, and when the parent doesn't have all the answers, at least they know there is a support network in place so they know where to get them!

Is 17 too high for the Age of consent

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