Is 17 too high for the Age of consent

Specialun

I dont want to go around banging a bunch of 16 yr olds girls but I was listening to a debate on 4fm earlier and this was mentioned

I personally think it should be lower as these days teenagers are more aware of the consequences and more mature

Whats your opinion

Czarcasm

Specialun wrote: »

I dont want to go around banging a bunch of 16 yr olds girls but I was listening to a debate on 4fm earlier and this was mentioned

I personally think it should be lower as these days teenagers are more aware of the consequences and more mature

Whats your opinion

Seriously? :pac:


Oh yeah- No.


And having listened to the same "debate", it's probably best to give it some context as to what they were talking about -


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23653172

Former newspaper owner Eddy Shah has said under-age girls who engage in consensual sex can be "to blame" for the abuse they experience.

Mr Shah was recently cleared of raping a schoolgirl in London hotels when she was between 12 and 15.

He said charges of rape involving girls under 16 who "threw themselves" at celebrities could be "technical".

But the NSPCC and National Association of People Abused in Childhood said rape was always a crime.

Mr Shah, the 69-year-old founder of the newspaper Today, who lives in Chippenham, Wiltshire, was found not guilty at the Old Bailey last month of raping a girl at upmarket London hotels when she was between 12 and 15.

After the case he called for a review of how rape cases are dealt with by police, saying: "Anybody walking down the street can point at a celebrity and say, 'he raped me'.

And on Saturday he told BBC Radio 5 live's Stephen Nolan rape charges involving girls who "threw themselves" at celebrities were a legal technicality.

Mr Shah said: "If we take the pop groups and people of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, who everybody knows that women were throwing themselves at them - young girls who looked 17, 18, 19 and 20...

"Rape was a technical thing - below a certain age. But these girls were going out with the pop groups and becoming groupies and all the rest of it, and throwing themselves at them. You cannot put that down to the fact they've been abused.

"Young girls and young men have always wanted a bit of excitement when they are young. They want to appear adult and do adult things."

When asked if he was implying that under-age victims could themselves be at fault, he said: "If we're talking about girls who go out and just have a good time, then they are to blame.

"If we talk about people who happen to be out and actually get 'raped' raped, then I feel no - and everything should be done against that."

Overheal

well you could start by making the consent laws gender-neutral..

wazky

My opinion?

Leave your front door open, no point in having the Guards smash it down.

Tombi!

Lower it and provide better sex education.
Or higher it and provide better sex education.

Or just provide better f**king sex education.

Brego888

When you delete files off your computer/laptop they are not really gone.
Burn your hard drive or throw it in a lake

Specialun

Czarcasm wrote: »

Seriously? :pac:

Well when i was in school we had zero sex education..nowadays it is thought in schools..thus more aware of the dangers of sex

Nodin

Specialun wrote: »

I dont want to go around banging a bunch of 16 yr olds girls but I was listening to a debate on 4fm earlier and this was mentioned

I personally think it should be lower as these days teenagers are more aware of the consequences and more mature

Whats your opinion

It criminalises teenagers for having sex with teenagers, which is fucking mental. It should be lowered to 14 or 15 with an exception for those within a few years in age.

And, as mentioned, be made gender neutral.

matrim

I wouldn't mind it being lower but having a kind of tiered system (and without the gender issue that is currently there), e.g. 2 15yo isn't illegal. A 16yo and 15yo isn't illegal but maybe a 17yo and 15yo is illegal.

There obviously has to be common sense in terms of how it's applied, e.g. a couple who have been together for a while and suddenly one of them has a birthday and it is now illegal but if you have any kind of age of consent you'll have to deal with that kind of situation.

CuriousG

No way

biko

15 is quite common. I think between 15 and 18, as long as both are of adjacent years, that could work. Over 18 you can bang anyone/any age.

Frosty McSnowballs

Higher it to 25

"My Teen Mom" and "16 and pregnant" have ruined tv for me

Nodin

biko wrote: »

15 is quite common. I think between 15 and 18, as long as both are of adjacent years, that could work. Over 18 you can bang anyone/any age.

Even fat oul fellahs of 43. Yes ladies, tis true.

Tombi!

I think a two year age gap would work once you're 15. Maybe 14 - 15 can have sex, 15 - 17, 16 - 18 and 17 - 20

Baring obvious things like a person in a position of authority, etc.

Czarcasm

Specialun wrote: »

Well when i was in school we had zero sex education..nowadays it is thought in schools..thus more aware of the dangers of sex

They have fcukall sex education in school nowadays either. They make a piss poor ham fisted attempt at it, but that's all it is- the dangers of sex, nothing about how enjoyable it can be when handled from a mature perspective.

Information != Education.

Understanding = Education.

Because children and young adults mature intellectually at different levels and ages and process information differently, a more individualised approach is needed, ie- Make it the responsibility of the parents to educate their children, rather than one adult fielding questions from 30 children of different intellectual levels while delivering only the basics of what the curriculum requires.

There HAS to be an arbitrary age, and 17 is that age, it doesn't need to be reduced. Teenagers were always having sex, no different now than it was 30 years ago, it's not the age of consent needs to change, it's the method of delivery of the information.

The curriculum hasn't kept up with the cultural changes.

RandomName2

The highest age of consent in the EU. Some achievement I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_eu.png

Sure contraception has only been legal here two decades.

Owen_S

IMO it should be 16, with a 2 year age gap to account for certain situations(like a 17 year old and a 15 year old). This would make it clear that an old perv can't have sex with somebody under 16, while also preventing young people having consensual sex from being prosecuted(in most cases).

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

...............
There HAS to be an arbitrary age, and 17 is that age, it doesn't need to be reduced. Teenagers were always having sex, no different now than it was 30 years ago, it's not the age of consent needs to change, it's the method of delivery of the information.

The curriculum hasn't kept up with the cultural changes.

To the best of my knowledge teenagers within two years of each other have been prosecuted for having consensual sex - they may have been put on the sex offenders register. That's a culture that needs to change there.

shleedance

Should be in two ranges. If you're 17 or under, then 14 could suffice. If you're 18 or over, then the age of consent is 17.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge teenagers within two years of each other have been prosecuted for having consensual sex - they may have been put on the sex offenders register. That's a culture that needs to change there.

That would be teenagers that were charged with statutory rape at the behest of the teenagers parents.

If young people are informed and choose to disregard the law, then they should be prepared for the possible consequences of their decisions and their actions.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

That would be teenagers that were charged with statutory rape at the behest of the teenagers parents.

If young people are informed and choose to disregard the law, then they should be prepared for the possible consequences of their decisions and their actions.

....they'd love you in Saudi. I'd put up "sex crime" but the song isn't angry and contempt filled enough.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

....they'd love you in Saudi. I'd put up "sex crime" but the song isn't angry and contempt filled enough.

We're not living in Saudi Arabia though, are we?

Also it's worth noting that as long as the age difference IS only two years, the teenager will NOT be put on the sex offenders register.

If teenagers think they're old enough and bold enough to engage in sexual activity and consider themselves mature enough to have sex, then shouldn't they also be considered mature enough to deal with the possible adverse consequences of same?

Would you like to see a double standard apply where they're considered adult enough to have sex, but they're only kids when it comes to dealing with the consequences if things don't go to plan?

Amirani

Czarcasm wrote: »

That would be teenagers that were charged with statutory rape at the behest of the teenagers parents.

If young people are informed and choose to disregard the law, then they should be prepared for the possible consequences of their decisions and their actions.

Should both teenagers be held responsible in this case?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I don't think so. Hell even at 17, I don't think someone is mature enough to make that decision, I know I wasnt at least. I don't think kids are having sex quite as early as they lead their friends ect to believe.

Czarcasm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Should both teenagers be held responsible in this case?

Yes? Is that a trick question?

Amirani

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yes? Is that a trick question?

Nope. Just that it's not really the case at the moment.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

We're not living in Saudi Arabia though, are we?

Also it's worth noting that as long as the age difference IS only two years, the teenager will NOT be put on the sex offenders register.

If teenagers think they're old enough and bold enough to engage in sexual activity and consider themselves mature enough to have sex, then shouldn't they also be considered mature enough to deal with the possible adverse consequences of same?

Why should there be consequences at all?

Crooked Jack

Specialun wrote: »

I dont want to go around banging a bunch of 16 yr olds girls

What's wrong with you?

Czarcasm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I don't think so. Hell even at 17, I don't think someone is mature enough to make that decision, I know I wasnt at least. I don't think kids are having sex quite as early as they lead their friends ect to believe.

Lexie I've dealt with eight year olds giving blow jobs to 11 year olds, it's not uncommon as you might think, and certainly kids think they're more clued in to sex nowadays.

They shìt themselves then when they think they have an STI or they might be pregnant when their period is a few days late.

There is a STAGGERING lack of information in todays youth surrounding the myriad of sexual matters- they know all the moves in the bedroom, but know fcukall about how to take care of their sexual health or the possible consequences thereafter, and that's not even getting into whether they're emotionally capable of processing their sexuality and understanding more complex issues surrounding all things sexual.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Czarcasm wrote: »

Lexie I've dealt with eight year olds giving blow jobs to 11 year olds, it's not uncommon as you might think, and certainly kids think they're more clued in to sex nowadays.

They shìt themselves then when they think they have an STI or they might be pregnant when their period is a few days late.

There is a STAGGERING lack of information in todays youth surrounding the myriad of sexual matters- they know all the moves in the bedroom, but know fcukall about how to take care of their sexual health or the possible consequences thereafter, and that's not even getting into whether they're emotionally capable of processing their sexuality and understanding more complex issues surrounding all things sexual.

Good God, that's really disturbing. I made that comment just based on my own experience and group of friends, I know I lied about doing it before I actually did it.

It's really sad that kids are doing that before they even hit puberty.

Czarcasm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Nope. Just that it's not really the case at the moment.

Here's why the distinction-

If both people are under 17, why are boys and girls treated differently?
The law makes this distinction because it does not want to seem to punish pregnancy nor to discourage reporting by female victims of incidents of sexual assault or rape.

Source: http://www.b4udecide.ie/the_facts/age_of_consent.htm

Nodin wrote: »

Why should there be consequences at all?

Why should there be consequences when people choose to break the law? Seriously Nodin? You know better.

MissD93

i'm 18 and i see so many girls my age being manipulated by older men who take advantage of their vulnerability. imo it should be 18.

Gatling

MissD93 wrote: »

i'm 18 and i see so many girls my age being manipulated by older men who take advantage of their vulnerability. imo it should be 18.

But what happens when its the reverse an younger girl manipulating the situation to there own advantage

MissD93

Gatling wrote: »

But what happens when its the reverse an younger girl manipulating the situation to there own advantage

shouldn't older men know better, they have a better clearer view of things and their hormones aren't about the place

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

..........


Why should there be consequences when people choose to break the law? Seriously Nodin? You know better.

Posing a question that has no relation to my meaning. Why should there be consequences for consensual sex between those of roughly similar age? Other than Victorian prudery.

Gatling

MissD93 wrote: »

shouldn't older men know better, they have a better clearer view of things and their hormones aren't about the place

So when a younger girl who obviously doesn't look her age throw's herself on an older man and engage in sexual activity several times before the truth comes out ,the chap deserves to have his life ruined

MissD93

personally i think any adult should know a person really well to avoid nasty suprises

wazky

MissD93 wrote: »

personally i think any adult should know a person really well to avoid nasty suprises

A quick grab of the genital region will soon clear up any nasty "surprises".

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

Posing a question that has no relation to my meaning. Why should there be consequences for consensual sex between those of roughly similar age? Other than Victorian prudery.

Because it's not just Victorian prudery Nodin. The laws are in place to protect society, it simply can't afford to make allowances for the individual cases like two teenagers who think they're mature enough to disregard said laws to have sex.

The law is there to protect individuals who actually AREN'T yet mature enough to have sex.

Gatling

MissD93 wrote: »

personally i think any adult should know a person really well to avoid nasty suprises

Bar asking for a passport and driving licence fro every bloke or girl you talk things happen spur of the moment or when drink is involved ,

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because it's not just Victorian prudery Nodin. The laws are in place to protect society, it simply can't afford to make allowances for the individual cases like two teenagers who think they're mature enough to disregard said laws to have sex.

The law is there to protect individuals who actually AREN'T yet mature enough to have sex.

...which could easily be lowered to 15.

Nodin

wazky wrote: »

A quick grab of the genital region will soon clear up any nasty "surprises".

....well we're presuming gender identification isn't the problem.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

...which could easily be lowered to 15.

Which could just as easily stay at 17. I mean, we could go back and forth all day and some would have the age of consent lowered to 12 (The Vatican of all places, only recently upped it to 18), some as high as 25 (I believe was mentioned in this thread), so somewhere there has to be that arbitrary line drawn.

I mean, unquestionably, there are 15 year olds that are well informed and are mature for their age, but by that same token, there are far many more ill informed 15 year olds that are immature for their age when it comes to sexual matters.

The law cannot account for every individual circumstance.

Gatling

Should it not be sorted by what you just said case by case basis rather than throw a broad blanket rape every time ,
Yes if a young girl has been manipulated into a sexual relationship ,
But then another look if its an intelligent decision to engage in a sexual relationship

Czarcasm

Gatling wrote: »

Should it not be sorted by what you just said case by case basis rather than throw a broad blanket rape every time ,
Yes if a young girl has been manipulated into a sexual relationship ,
But then another look if its an intelligent decision to engage in a sexual relationship

The age of consent doesn't just exist to protect young girls though, it is also there to protect young boys from being manipulated too.

Also, the judicial system can only deal with cases that are reported to them. It's also at the discretion of the DPP whether or not to prosecute a case in the case of two individuals under the age of consent, so in that sense at least the cases are dealt with on an individual basis.

Pace2008

Czarcasm wrote: »

I mean, unquestionably, there are 15 year olds that are well informed and are mature for their age, but by that same token, there are far many more ill informed 15 year olds that are immature for their age when it comes to sexual matters.

Well, Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all disagree with you, and they all have far lower teen pregnancy rates than we do in Ireland.

I don't really see what's being protected here, other than the sensibilities of older conservatives and overprotective parents who still see their little darlings as children.

Miss Lockhart

Personally I don't think it is too high. I teach sex ed teenagers and despite their bravado they're by and large far too emotionally immature for sex.

I would perhaps favour dropping the age of consent to 15, but with the introduction of a 2-year age gap rule for under 18s.

Dick Masterson

They might as well lower it seeing as it's broken probably everyday of the week in Ireland. When I was 18 nearly a decade ago, everyone in my area found it acceptable for an 18 year old to be sexually involved with a 16 year old. It's definitely morally acceptable and I've never heard anyone say otherwise. Also, girls start puberty about two years (11) before boys (13), so it's a very unscientific law, too.

Czarcasm

Pace2008 wrote: »

Well, Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all disagree with you, and they all have far lower teen pregnancy rates than we do in Ireland.

I see, and do Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all have the exact same social structure, educational system, social attitude to sexuality as we do here in Ireland?

I didn't think so. So the comparison to other countries is invalid.

I don't really see what's being protected here

Young people under the arbitrary age of consent, which in this country is 17.

other than the sensibilities of older conservatives and overprotective parents who still see their little darlings as children.

And the sort of dismissive nonsense above is exactly why the arbitrary age exists, because if the minority of short sighted people such as yourself had their way, you would also not want to deal with the possible adverse consequences of your decisions.

The State doesn't have the luxury of your short sighted, blinkered, mé-féin vision.

udonwannado

Czarcasm wrote: »

I see, and do Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all have the exact same social structure, educational system, social attitude to sexuality as we do here in Ireland?

I didn't think so. So the comparison to other countries is invalid.

They don't have the same social structure, educational system, social attitudes to sex as each other either, but do have the same age of consent.

Pace2008

Czarcasm wrote: »

I see, and do Germany, France, Denmark and Italy all have the exact same social structure, educational system, social attitude to sexuality as we do here in Ireland?

I didn't think so. So the comparison to other countries is invalid.

This was kinda the point I was going to get at.

the age of consent in Italy is 14, and their teen birth rate is much lower than Ireland's. The age of consent in the US is 18 and their teen birth is higher rate than both Ireland's and Italy's.The age of consent in Bulgaria is 14 and the teen birth rate is higher than all three aforementioned contries.

You know why? Because horny teenagers don't give a **** about an arbitrary piece of legislation, but they are influenced by - and this will sound familiar - social structure, educational systems, and social attitudes to sexuality.

So I'm still wondering why this silly piece of punitive legislation is in place as it is, working under the reasonable axioms that:

- it is not inherently wrong for teenagers to have sex
- punitive legislation that does not serve any tangible purpose is bad, especially when it involves, say, teenagers in consenting sexual relationships being branded as statutory rapists.

Young people under the arbitrary age of consent, which in this country is 17.

And in what way are they protected by being criminalised? Bearing in mind I'm talking about two teenagers of the same age, or very close in age.

And the sort of dismissive nonsense above is exactly why the arbitrary age exists, because if the minority of short sighted people such as yourself had their way, you would also not want to deal with the possible adverse consequences of your decisions.

The State doesn't have the luxury of your short sighted, blinkered, mé-féin vision.

Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

"Having my way" involves relaxing a law that criminalises teenagers without serving any apparent purpose. I'd also conjecture that people of a mind with me are not as small a minority as you seem to think, or even a minority at all.

I have no idea how my views are selfish, given that I'm not below the age of consent and I don't have any desire to have sex with anyone below the age of consent.