Why can nobody speak Irish?

BognarRegis · 12-08-2013 08:51PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

Crusty the clown

Nope, but 'keep digging' might be this: 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language.

Iwasfrozen · 12-08-2013 09:34PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I haven't said a word about compulsion in this thread, either!

In this thread. But in general?

Noreen1 · 12-08-2013 10:11PM

In general, in an ideal world, I see no reason to make Irish compulsory for leaving cert.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, so the truth is, that if Irish is made optional, due to educational cutbacks - people wont have the option to learn Irish, when they want to.

My local school has taught two foreign languages for the last 35 years.
Prior to that, it was three languages, + English and Irish.
This year, it's been reduced to one language, and not because there isn't a demand for both languages, there is!

It's that Pupil/Teacher ratio.
Increase the pupil ratio, and at least one teacher is lost.
In secondary schools, it's usually more than one.
The bigger the school, the more teachers are lost, and the fewer options are available to the pupils.

If I could be certain that Irish was always going to be available as an option for those who want to learn it, I'd have no real problem with it being optional for Leaving cert.

The truth is - the only way to guarantee that it will be available as an option, is if it's a compulsory subject.
That sucks, but it's the truth.:mad:

So, far from being desperate, I'm merely a parent who wants to ensure that my childrens right to speak their language is protected.

I actually asked them today how they'd feel if Irish wasn't available as a subject, and I was surprised at how vehemently they defended their right to have it as a subject choice.
Despite what you may think, that opinion didn't come from me.
It came as a reaction to what the anti-Irish posters on Boards had to say - including your good self!:D

I can actually understand why some people hate Irish with a passion. I can remember feeling an equal amount of loathing for Geography.
I considered it both boring, and a total waste of time, since it was taught as a memory exercise.

It's taught very differently now. I actually find the kids geography books interesting!:eek:
Strangely enough, for all the complaining I did about having to learn reams of geography, I didn't suffer any lasting ill-effects!:p

There's no reason the same shouldn't be true of Irish.
Lose the poetry, and novels, and actually learn to communicate using the language - then add the grammar.
It's a logical, and natural, way to learn a language.
Unfortunately, no-one in the Dept. of Education seems to have realised that with regard to Irish, though the teaching of foreign languages has been vastly improved compared to thirty years ago - and therein lies the problem.

Maybe the problem is that those who are responsible for setting the Irish curriculum are not native speakers, or maybe they're "purists" who are refusing to let the language develop in an effort to "preserve" rather than teach it?
I don't know - but I do know the record to date is abysmal.

Rubeter · 12-08-2013 10:13PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I haven't said a word about compulsion in this thread, either!

Sure if you mention the slightest positive thing about the language here and don't rant on about it being a dead and useless language it automatically means you want to shove it down the throat of every living human being on the planet. :rolleyes:

Noreen1 wrote: »

I actually asked them today how they'd feel if Irish wasn't available as a subject, and I was surprised at how vehemently they defended their right to have it as a subject choice.
Despite what you may think, that opinion didn't come from me.
It came as a reaction to what the anti-Irish posters on Boards had to say - including your good self!:D

Nice one!!
I have had someone say the very same to me, reading some of the negative attitudes here has actually made them think more about how special the language is.

Thanks folks. I don't think that is quite what you intended.

Richard · 12-08-2013 10:43PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

For me personally there was zero motivation to learn it. Neither of my parents had any interest in the language. There are other minor language in europe. Finnish and Estonian being example being spoken by native speakers as a first language.

In Finland they have to learn Swedish as it is an official language and was once the main language of the country (at least the language of those who ran the country). Over time, and for various reasons, Finnish replaced Swedish nearly everywhere in the country.

Many Finns hate having to learn Swedish but in Ireland it's the learning of Irish which is often resented.

Iwasfrozen · 12-08-2013 11:04PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

If I could be certain that Irish was always going to be available as an option for those who want to learn it, I'd have no real problem with it being optional for Leaving cert.

What if we put a safe guard to ensure every school had to offer the language but students were not mandated to study it. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

Iwasfrozen · 12-08-2013 11:08PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I have had someone say the very same to me, reading some of the negative attitudes here has actually made them think more about how special the language is.

Thanks folks. I don't think that is quite what you intended.

For the last time I don't care what language you speak. You have a right to go about your business in any language you want but so do I and you need to respect that. The first step would be to remove Irish as a compulsory subject but ensure it will always be taught. Secondly no civil servant should be discriminated against for not speaking the language. Thirdly there should be bilingual signs in the gaeltacht areas. When we have those three items covered we will be on our way towards a true Ireland of equals.

yeller · 12-08-2013 11:15PM

I speak Irish and french very well as was taught them at school and carried on wth them but found Irish is of little use (only to have it to say im Irish and can speak it) as its never used really at all nowadays and no one is interested in it anyway which is a pity

Iwasfrozen · 12-08-2013 11:17PM

yeller wrote: »

I speak Irish and french very well as was taught them at school and carried on wth them but found Irish is of little use (only to have it to say im Irish and can speak it) as its never used really at all nowadays and no one is interested in it anyway which is a pity

Why? If you want to speak it go ahead if other people don't want to speak it then that's their business.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-08-2013 11:46PM

[QUOTE=Noreen1;85963324

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, so the truth is, that if Irish is made optional, due to educational cutbacks - people wont have the option to learn Irish, when they want to.
[/QUOTE]

????

If I could be certain that Irish was always going to be available as an option for those who want to learn it, I'd have no real problem with it being optional for Leaving cert.

Very few people will have a problem with this.

The truth is - the only way to guarantee that it will be available as an option, is if it's a compulsory subject.
That sucks, but it's the truth.:mad:

Makes no sense. Other subjects are optional, they survive.

So, far from being desperate, I'm merely a parent who wants to ensure that my childrens right to speak their language is protected.

This right thing has been done to death. That right is there. It's enshrined. And it's not going to go away if a 14 year old else chooses to do a different subject.

There's no reason the same shouldn't be true of Irish.
Lose the poetry, and novels, and actually learn to communicate using the language - then add the grammar.
It's a logical, and natural, way to learn a language.
Unfortunately, no-one in the Dept. of Education seems to have realised that with regard to Irish, though the teaching of foreign languages has been vastly improved compared to thirty years ago - and therein lies the problem.

Very true. But if this happened and the subject was optional, then people would choose to study it! THIS is the crux of the problem.

Maybe the problem is that those who are responsible for setting the Irish curriculum are not native speakers, or maybe they're "purists" who are refusing to let the language develop in an effort to "preserve" rather than teach it?
I don't know - but I do know the record to date is abysmal.

Probably the later. But it's the education that needs to be priorotised and not the bloody language. These are our kids - they deserve better than to be used as pawns by a preservation society to which many of them do not relate.

BognarRegis · 13-08-2013 05:54AM

Noreen1 wrote: »

In general, in an ideal world, I see no reason to make Irish compulsory for leaving cert.

But you're ok with the idea of forcing younger children to speak Irish against their own and their parent's wishes?

Noreen1 wrote: »

if Irish is made optional, ... people wont have the option to learn Irish

Do you mean that unless everyone is forced to learn Irish, those who wish to speak Irish won't have anyone to talk to?

Rubeter · 13-08-2013 07:22AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For the last time I don't care what language you speak. You have a right to go about your business in any language you want but so do I and you need to respect that.

Telling someone they need to do something directly implies that don't already do it, so what makes you think I don't respect peoples desire to speak any language they want?

You have just shown how relevant my earlier comment quoted below is.

"Sure if you mention the slightest positive thing about the language here and don't rant on about it being a dead and useless language it automatically means you want to shove it down the throat of every living human being on the planet."

Thanks

Noreen1 · 13-08-2013 10:38AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What if we put a safe guard to ensure every school had to offer the language but students were not mandated to study it. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

It would - provided that safeguard wasn't just a "promise" from a politician, and that it contained a clause that ensured that there would be sufficient teachers to cope with the demand.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

????

Makes no sense. Other subjects are optional, they survive.

Makes perfect sense! How familiar are you with how schools arrange timetables within pupil/teacher ratio constraints.
More students per teacher means fewer teachers.
Secondary school teachers teach two or three subjects - therefore when teachers have to be made redundant, the subject options available to the students are reduced. Unfortunate, but true!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This right thing has been done to death. That right is there. It's enshrined. And it's not going to go away if someone else chooses to fo something else.

See above!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Very true. But if this happened and the subject was optional, then people would choose to study it! THIS is the crux of the problem.

Probably the later. But it's the education that needs to be priorotised and not the bloody language. These are our kids - they deserve better than to be used as pawns by a preservation society to which many of them do not relate.

So, how would you feel about ensuring the language is adequately taught before consigning it to the dustbin?

I seriously do not understand the amount of desperation to abolish the language displayed in some of these threads.
Every child dislikes one subject, or another, yet people don't call for these subjects to be optional.
Why is that?
Would it not be more constructive to see why children dislike these subjects, and address that, to make the subject more interesting?

For example - I've yet to meet a child who likes rote learning - yet these same children memorise pop songs easily and effortlessly! Why is that? (Doesn't require an answer, I already know the answer)
And why on earth aren't some of our educators paying attention to the principles of learning!

BognarRegis wrote: »

But you're ok with the idea of forcing younger children to speak Irish against their own and their parent's wishes?

Do you mean that unless everyone is forced to learn Irish, those who wish to speak Irish won't have anyone to talk to?

Probably about as ok as I am with having children having to study geography, history, or any other subject, tbh. You are aware that a dispensation can be obtained, right?

And, no, I most certainly do not mean that unless everyone is "forced" to speak Irish, those who do speak it won't have anyone to talk to.
No-one forces either myself or my children to speak Irish, yet we do it on a daily basis, as do people in Gaeltacht areas all over the Country, where speaking Irish is every bit as natural, and easy, as speaking English.
Those who are so anxious to abolish the teaching of the language quite simply don't seem to understand that Irish is part and parcel of daily life in parts of the Country - and we like it that way!

An Coilean · 13-08-2013 11:04AM

Noreen1 wrote: »

Maybe the problem is that those who are responsible for setting the Irish curriculum are not native speakers, or maybe they're "purists" who are refusing to let the language develop in an effort to "preserve" rather than teach it?
I don't know - but I do know the record to date is abysmal.

I'v seen a reform proposal that I think hits the nail on the head with regard why they insist on including poetry/proes etc. The same subject is taught in Gaeltacht/Gaelcholaistí as in English medium schools, its essentialy a compromise between the needs of those who can already speak the language and those who are learning it. The emphasis on oral is for the learners but is doing nothing for those who already have the language, the emphasis on poetry etc is for those who do have the language but is really doing nothing for those who are only learning it.

Spliting the subject into one suitable for learners in English medium schools and a different one along the lines of LC English for those already fluent in the Gaeltacht and All-Irish Schools is the way forward as far as I am concerned.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-08-2013 11:17AM

Noreen1 wrote: »

It would - provided that safeguard wasn't just a "promise" from a politician, and that it contained a clause that ensured that there would be sufficient teachers to cope with the demand.

Sounds like a cop out. I've come across this attitude a few time on this thread! "I'm not in favour of compulsory Irish, but...." and then list a vague fear, or some mythical compromise that must be met.

Every child has to learn Irish as it is. Demand is pretty much 100% and supply is meeting it.

Makes perfect sense! How familiar are you with how schools arrange timetables within pupil/teacher ratio constraints.
More students per teacher means fewer teachers.
Secondary school teachers teach two or three subjects - therefore when teachers have to be made redundant, the subject options available to the students are reduced. Unfortunate, but true!

No, it doesn't: primary school teachers have to have it.

The rest of it is fallacy: teachers teaching more subjects increases the options. Teachers don't get made redundant: if the demand for a subject is is not there, they just teach the other subjects that can teach.

And this does not compromise rights - as long as one teacher has one subject that's Irish, it's available.

So, how would you feel about ensuring the language is adequately taught before consigning it to the dustbin?

I seriously do not understand the amount of desperation to abolish the language displayed in some of these threads.
Every child dislikes one subject, or another, yet people don't call for these subjects to be optional.
Why is that?
Would it not be more constructive to see why children dislike these subjects, and address that, to make the subject more interesting?

Strawman - I neve said anything about consigning it to the dustbin, and I'm all for all subjects being optional for the leaving, possibly for the junior (provided a strudent can demonstrate enough maths, english and irish for everyday life)

Nor do you answer the points I raised about prioritsiing the education and not the language.

For example - I've yet to meet a child who likes rote learning - yet these same children memorise pop songs easily and effortlessly! Why is that? (Doesn't require an answer, I already know the answer)
And why on earth aren't some of our educators paying attention to the principles of learning!

I'll asnwer it because I don't think you have the right answer: it's because they prioritise what is more interesrting to them.

"We have to keep it compulsory because...." means you are supporting compulsory Irish. And your reasons are inaccurate and disprestful to the kids and their education.

Iwasfrozen · 13-08-2013 11:24AM

Rubeter wrote: »

Telling someone they need to do something directly implies that don't already do it, so what makes you think I don't respect peoples desire to speak any language they want?

I see you have cut out the rest of my post. Don't you realise the OLA discriminates against non-Irish speaking civil service? English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us but not in the gaelteacht. Another example of discrimination against English speakers are bonus points given to Irish speakers in the leaving cert. That these problems don't even register with you shows you're happy to force your language on others.

Iwasfrozen · 13-08-2013 11:26AM

An Coilean wrote: »

I'v seen a reform proposal that I think hits the nail on the head with regard why they insist on including poetry/proes etc. The same subject is taught in Gaeltacht/Gaelcholaistí as in English medium schools, its essentialy a compromise between the needs of those who can already speak the language and those who are learning it. The emphasis on oral is for the learners but is doing nothing for those who already have the language, the emphasis on poetry etc is for those who do have the language but is really doing nothing for those who are only learning it.

Spliting the subject into one suitable for learners in English medium schools and a different one along the lines of LC English for those already fluent in the Gaeltacht and All-Irish Schools is the way forward as far as I am concerned.

As long as they're all optional you can split the subject into fifteen for all i care.

Rubeter · 13-08-2013 11:38AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I see you have cut out the rest of my post. Don't you realise the OLA discriminates against non-Irish speaking civil service? English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us but not in the gaelteacht. Another example of discrimination against English speakers are bonus points given to Irish speakers in the leaving cert. That these problems don't even register with you shows you're happy to force your language on others.

To imagine that just because someone speaks the language they are forcing it on others is idiotic in the extreme.
There are lots of things I don't give a shit about, and I let those that do care about them worry about them.

An Coilean · 13-08-2013 12:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As long as they're all optional you can split the subject into fifteen for all i care.

The proposal is for Irish (Communication) which would be based on spoken Irish and functional literacy to continue as a core subject in English medium schools, with the new course for All-Irish schools, Irish (Literature) Thats based on LC English as an aditional optional subject in English medium schools for students that want to persue Irish to a greater depth. Irish (Literature) would be a core subject in All-Irish schools instead of Irish (Comunication).

Not my proposal, it came out of the Being Young and Irish thing the President set up last year.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-08-2013 12:33PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The proposal is for Irish (Communication) which would be based on spoken Irish and functional literacy to continue as a core subject in English medium schools, with the new course for All-Irish schools, Irish (Literature) Thats based on LC English as an aditional optional subject in English medium schools for students that want to persue Irish to a greater depth. Irish (Literature) would be a core subject in All-Irish schools instead of Irish (Comunication).

Not my proposal, it came out of the Being Young and Irish thing the President set up last year.

If "core subject" means compulsroy, then it's a "no" from me. Everone leaves school with enough Irish literacy to function in Irish society, this won't change anything.

Being Young and Irish sounds like a bit daft: if you're born here, you're Irish. If you have to force someone into a pigeonhole of what you find acceptably Irish in a person, then freedom has gone out the window.

Iwasfrozen · 13-08-2013 12:44PM

Rubeter wrote: »

To imagine that just because someone speaks the language they are forcing it on others is idiotic in the extreme.
There are lots of things I don't give a shit about, and I let those that do care about them worry about them.

Totally dodged the question again. That's quite a skill you have you might even be politician potential! Now let's try this again.

English speaking students are discriminated against as Irish speaking students gain bonus points in the leaving cert.
English speaking civil servants are discriminated against as they are passed over for promotion by their Irish speaking colleagues.
English speaking road users are discriminated against as road signs in the gaeltacht are monolingual while in the rest of Ireland they must be bilingual.

End the discrimination and we can start to talk about equality.

Kicking Bird · 13-08-2013 12:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I see you have cut out the rest of my post. Don't you realise the OLA discriminates against non-Irish speaking civil service? English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us but not in the gaelteacht. Another example of discrimination against English speakers are bonus points given to Irish speakers in the leaving cert. That these problems don't even register with you shows you're happy to force your language on others.

"English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us....." - My jaysus,what nonsense!

Iwasfrozen · 13-08-2013 12:50PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The proposal is for Irish (Communication) which would be based on spoken Irish and functional literacy to continue as a core subject in English medium schools, with the new course for All-Irish schools, Irish (Literature) Thats based on LC English as an aditional optional subject in English medium schools for students that want to persue Irish to a greater depth. Irish (Literature) would be a core subject in All-Irish schools instead of Irish (Comunication).

Not my proposal, it came out of the Being Young and Irish thing the President set up last year.

As I said I don't care what they do with the language once it's made optional.

Kicking Bird wrote:

"English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us....." - My jaysus,what nonsense!

Just because you like it doesn't mean it's not forced.

Dunnie1982 · 13-08-2013 01:38PM

In my experience Irish is taught wrong from an early age & the dislike for the language and failure to be able to speak the most basic sentences of the language are somewhat justified as most of us see it's a dead language only spoken in a few remote areas of the country and will never again have to use it after we finish school. I'll try to explain below why I don't, can't and have no interest in learning to speak any Irish.

When I learned Irish in school I had teachers who forced us to learn words off, I never learned that the alphabet in Irish and English are pronounced differently and had no idea why we put fadas on some letters and not others. I lost interest in the language very early on and grew to hate it in around first class as I had a nun who used to punch me in the back if I pronounced a word wrong (this was in 1988/1989, well after corporal punishment was banned). When I asked why it was wrong almost all my teachers down the years would give the same reply "Keep reading it until you understand it", which is pointless as I can't pronounce the words in the first place. I imagine this is how someone with dyslexia feels when reading English. The whole idea of learning a language from a book as opposed learning to speak it first is a ridiculous concept to me.

When I got to secondary school I was in the "A" class, which was grand for Maths, English, Science etc., but as I was so bad at Irish I couldn't keep up with what we were learning. The Irish teacher that I had the whole way through secondary school had a presumption that everyone should know a certain level of Irish by secondary school and if we didn't, then tough luck. I failed ordinary level Irish in the Junior cert and scraped through foundation level Irish in the leaving cert with a D. As Irish is a compulsory subject and it's mark is counted towards your points, Irish got me less than 10 points in the leaving and drastically reduced my total points score. Whereas history which was the lowest scoring of my other subjects would have gotten me 60 or so points instead.

Now I'm in my early 30's and I have no Irish & when people ask the simplest questions or say basic words I genuinely don't have any idea what they are saying. If people want to learn Irish, then fair play to them, go on and learn it, but to have it as a compulsory subject and force it on kids in non gealscoil schools and who are still only learning to speak English is ridiculous.

Irish people not being able to speak Irish must be rooted in the was it's taught, by having something which we never use outside school being almost forced on kids and with kids being left behind if they don't understand something. This in turn leads them to having an association with the language and a sense of failure, which we don't want to revisit during our lives. On a slightly different topic, I can understand a lot of French, a little Spanish and a little German, but can't speak the languages except for a few phrases. This despite never learning German or Spanish and never being to either country.

Carlos Orange · 13-08-2013 02:01PM

Kicking Bird wrote: »

"English speaking road users are also discriminated against as bilingual signs are forced on us....." - My jaysus,what nonsense!

The bit after the ... is the point. I think you missed it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-08-2013 02:38PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Totally dodged the question again. That's quite a skill you have you might even be politician potential! Now let's try this again.
English speaking students are discriminated against as Irish speaking students gain bonus points in the leaving cert.

English speaking civil servants are discriminated against as they are passed over for promotion by their Irish speaking colleagues.

English speaking road users are discriminated against as road signs in the gaeltacht are monolingual while in the rest of Ireland they must be bilingual.

End the discrimination and we can start to talk about equality.

Dublin bus timetables also list the stops in Irish only: you don;t hear the pro-Irish rights brigade banging on about that.

Iwasfrozen · 13-08-2013 02:44PM

psinno wrote: »

The bit after the ... is the point. I think you missed it.

He got as far as "forced" and spat up his lucky charms ;-)

Kicking Bird · 13-08-2013 03:10PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He got as far as "forced" and spat up his lucky charms ;-)[/QUOTE

If you're getting so upset every time you see a bilingual road sign,I genuinely think you need psychiatric help.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-08-2013 03:24PM

Kicking Bird wrote: »

If you're getting so upset every time you see a bilingual road sign,I genuinely think you need psychiatric help.

Therein lies the hypocricy: people harp on about "protecting the rights of Irish speakers" and how much we need a Commissioner to make sure that access to the both langauges is avialable to all and .... it's all bollocks.

As soon as you point out one instance where Irish is prioritised it's downplayed as,"oh you need psychiatric help".

It's actually quiet troublesome to not be able to read roadsigns when you think about it - especially for tourists - and this is one of our main industries.

So what is it you want? Equality or superiority? Works both ways.

An Coilean · 13-08-2013 04:21PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Therein lies the hypocricy: people harp on about "protecting the rights of Irish speakers" and how much we need a Commissioner to make sure that access to the both langauges is avialable to all and .... it's all bollocks.

As soon as you point out one instance where Irish is prioritised it's downplayed as,"oh you need psychiatric help".

It's actually quiet troublesome to not be able to read roadsigns when you think about it - especially for tourists - and this is one of our main industries.

So what is it you want? Equality or superiority? Works both ways.

Yes, most signs in the Gaeltacht are monolingual Irish. It was and is felt that this should be the case to represent areas that are Irish speaking. English is not under threat from the Irish language in English speaking areas, Irish is under threat from the English language in Irish speaking areas. Existing signage policy reflects that.
You might object to this and frankly it comes accross as petty that you do, but it is a minor issue in itself either way.

People harp on about the rights of Irish speakers, but guess what, Irish speakers need rights to get any kind of fair play in this country. If you want to use Irish you have an uphill battel ahead of you, with the likes of you and iwasfrozen sneering at you and objecting all the way. As it is, people who want to use English have every service layed out for them without question, will never be fobed off, laughed at, messed around or poorly treated for simply wanting to use their language when dealing with the state and you have the cheek to complain about Irish speakers wanting access to the most basic of services in their language or a few signs in Irish speaking areas.

FFS get a life, will you.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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