Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!

Banjo String · 10-08-2013 12:12pm

Jester252 wrote: »

Did you read the article?

The roadblock was not set up by the guards but by the SIU. The article noted that legitimate tradesmen seem happy to be stopped. As they was efforts to stop the defrauders who were putting them out of business.

You do have the right not to supply any information other than your name and addresses and if you want you can use that right. Like I said this is the easiest way to catch the defrauders. With out these the SUI have to find a suspect, noting what time they left home/ returned, where they went, video of them working and getting paid you get them to confess to you. This way they get them to confess.
Potential of €88,000 minimum is nothing to turn your nose up at.

I was stopped in Dublin a few weeks ago.
Stopped by the gards at a Check point in my non sign written/non marked work vehicle.

I was asked for my license, which I happily provided the gard with. He then checked me for tax/insurance etc.

Then some lady approached me, whom the gard handed my licence to, and she asked my pps details/employment status etc.

I'm unsure of the legality of the whole thing. I'm not against welfare fraud being combated, just for clarity.

shane9689 · 10-08-2013 12:13pm

to everyone asking what happens when you dont answer them...here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u72a-zb8HrU

alot of gaurds dont give a **** about the small print when it comes to law, and theres nothing you can do about that really, ireland in general even

Gatling · 10-08-2013 12:17pm

In a few hours effort they save €75,000 pa ,

I'm all for it

Love to see what would happen if they did this country wide for a full year they'd save millions in welfare fraud

shane9689 · 10-08-2013 12:17pm

Forest Demon wrote: »

Everyone should have to carry an biometric photo ID card. This same card could be a medical card and social services card, driving licence etc and could also list all of your entitlements. The same card could be presented to the community welfare officer and fortnightly endorsed by producing details of minimum amount of jobs applied for.

Then they could scan them at roadblocks and instantly check them at roadblocks for welfare fraud and illegal immigrants. We could also use the same systems in random workplace checks.

This card should also contain car tax details. Anyone on welfare with expensive cars or vans should have to explain were the means to buy these cars came from.

It should also detail criminal records and current bail status.

I know the bleeding hearts will have issue with all of the above but if you have nothing to hide then it won't cause you any problems. Thieves, criminals, illegal immigrants and people conducting welfare fraud won't like it.

goodluck with that

Gummy Panda · 10-08-2013 12:17pm

SamHall wrote: »

I was stopped in Dublin a few weeks ago.
Stopped by the gards at a Check point in my non sign written/non marked work vehicle.

I was asked for my license, which I happily provided the gard with. He then checked me for tax/insurance etc.

Then some lady approached me, whom the gard handed my licence to, and she asked my pps details/employment status etc.

I'm unsure of the legality of the whole thing. I'm not against welfare fraud being combated, just for clarity.

Hmm I would seriously question how legal it is for a Garda to pass on your passport to an unidentified third party

Jester252 · 10-08-2013 12:24pm

SamHall wrote: »

I was stopped in Dublin a few weeks ago.
Stopped by the gards at a Check point in my non sign written/non marked work vehicle.

I was asked for my license, which I happily provided the gard with. He then checked me for tax/insurance etc.

Then some lady approached me, whom the gard handed my licence to, and she asked my pps details/employment status etc.

I'm unsure of the legality of the whole thing. I'm not against welfare fraud being combated, just for clarity.

Unless told why your being stop you don't have to answer questions. I think the garda was wrong by giving her your licence without your permission. All you need to answer is your name and addresses. The rest is just fishing.

weldoninhio · 10-08-2013 12:34pm

Forest Demon wrote: »

Everyone should have to carry an biometric photo ID card. This same card could be a medical card and social services card, driving licence etc and could also list all of your entitlements. The same card could be presented to the community welfare officer and fortnightly endorsed by producing details of minimum amount of jobs applied for.

Then they could scan them at roadblocks and instantly check them at roadblocks for welfare fraud and illegal immigrants. We could also use the same systems in random workplace checks.

This card should also contain car tax details. Anyone on welfare with expensive cars or vans should have to explain were the means to buy these cars came from.

It should also detail criminal records and current bail status.

I know the bleeding hearts will have issue with all of the above but if you have nothing to hide then it won't cause you any problems. Thieves, criminals, illegal immigrants and people conducting welfare fraud won't like it.

Why should someones personal finances be privy to the government. What if they've gotten a claim, won the lotto, won the local GAA car draw. I'm sure there are plenty of welfare cheats/criminals/drug-dealers who have low level cars to avoid detection, should everyone in a low level car be questioned about that??

JRant · 10-08-2013 12:43pm

SamHall wrote: »

I was stopped in Dublin a few weeks ago.
Stopped by the gards at a Check point in my non sign written/non marked work vehicle.

I was asked for my license, which I happily provided the gard with. He then checked me for tax/insurance etc.

Then some lady approached me, whom the gard handed my licence to, and she asked my pps details/employment status etc.

I'm unsure of the legality of the whole thing. I'm not against welfare fraud being combated, just for clarity.

Well i hope you told her where to stick her questions and the gall of the gard to hand over your details to some pen pusher.

When dealing with any official it's always best to employ the mushroom technique, feed them shîte and keep them in the dark. The less they know about you the better and bar your name and address there is no obligation to answer any other questions.

percy212 · 10-08-2013 12:45pm

Agreed. If social welfare wants to spy on people then they are free to do so, but they should not use guards as puppets to frighten the public into answering questions.

In this situation I would:

Ask the guard who this other person is and why they are questioning you. Ask the guard if it is legal to be questioned about your employment status by a guard and/or a non guard.
Ask for the guards details, and the other persons details. Tell them you want them written down and handed to you. After all you handed them your details.
Refuse to answer any questions and say that if the guards want any further information they may write to you at your home address which you have provided.
Ask if you may drive away.

Jester252 wrote: »

Unless told why your being stop you don't have to answer questions. I think the garda was wrong by giving her your licence without your permission. All you need to answer is your name and addresses. The rest is just fishing.

K-9 · 10-08-2013 12:50pm

Corkbah wrote: »

people are complaining about the methods used more than the actual cheating.

(in some cases it can be a slippery slope - if the gardai are intent on catching a dole cheat they "could" break the law in order to get a prosecution....and a garda's word is a lot stronger than the ordinary joe when before a court)

It's hardly the Birmingham 6 as Madsl keeps referring too.

I know customs officers have extensive powers, maybe even more than Gardai in some respects, not sure what SW investigators have.

JRant · 10-08-2013 1:00pm

K-9 wrote: »

It's hardly the Birmingham 6 as Madsl keeps referring too.

I know customs officers have extensive powers, maybe even more than Gardai in some respects, not sure what SW investigators have.

Here's a list of SW investigator powers

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx

It seems that it is outside of their remit to question a person on the side of a road.

Banjo String · 10-08-2013 1:08pm

JRant wrote: »

Here's a list of SW investigator powers

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx

It seems that it is outside of their remit to question a person on the side of a road.

From the link.

Inspectors carry certificates of authorisation which they are required to show to the owners of premises, employers and others when they call to a premises for the purpose of an inspection or when they visit claimants at their homes. Inspectors do not have the power to enter private residences and only do so with the consent of the person they are visiting.

As part of the Department's control of abuse campaign, persons in receipt of unemployment payments or signing for credits are interviewed by Social Welfare Inspectors at Social Welfare Local Offices, Branch Offices, Garda Stations, signing centres and in their homes to establish that they continue to fulfill the relevant statutory conditions for entitlement.

The side of the road/in or outside a vehicle most definitely isn't listed.

They are breaking the law. It's that simple.

steddyeddy · 10-08-2013 1:16pm

SamHall wrote: »

From the link.

The side of the road/in or outside a vehicle most definitely isn't listed.

They are breaking the law. It's that simple.

It also specifies that the inspector can interview those in receipt of sw payments. It doesnt say the sw inspectors have preeminence over th public at large. As regards the gaurds you only have to tell them your name and address.

rolliepoley · 10-08-2013 1:31pm

Sw officers have to id themselfs before they can ask questions, and no way should a cop hand over your licence to anybody else, also they can only ask you where you have been, they cant ask you where your going because you might never get there, you cant tell the fkn feature.

Celly Smunt · 10-08-2013 1:37pm

As far as im aware the only people you have to give details to are Gardai and customs.

There is nothing to prevent people requesting confidential conversations away from the Social welfare guy,which then cannot be shared with him/her

But in the grand scheme of things this is just scare mongering for the people claiming and working.Resources are far too stretched as it is for the gardai to accomodate the social welfare.

suicide_circus · 10-08-2013 1:49pm

i'm in favour of catching welfare cheats

Celly Smunt · 10-08-2013 1:50pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i'm in favour of catching welfare cheats

As am I,though I am not in favour of being interrogated on the roadside by a civil servant while on my way to work.

suicide_circus · 10-08-2013 1:52pm

Celly Smunt wrote: »

As am I,though I am not in favour of being interrogated on the roadside by a civil servant while on my way to work.

inconvenient and annoying yes but all interactions with a state or civil official are. and its not like it will be a daily occurrence. if it means scum are caught and money is saved, i'm all for it.

Celly Smunt · 10-08-2013 1:56pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

inconvenient and annoying yes but all interactions with a state or civil official are. and its not like it will be a daily occurrence. if it means scum are caught and money is saved, i'm all for it.

Its an interaction with a state official that isn't required by me though,that's the problem.

Take the car out of the situation,would you like to be stopped walking down the street by a civil servant asking your name,address,pps number,photographic ID,where you're coming from,where you're going to etc etc,and then suspecting you if you refuse to cooperate?

rolliepoley · 10-08-2013 1:59pm

Also there is another thing this will only achieve of stoping is car pooling.

JRant · 10-08-2013 2:03pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

inconvenient and annoying yes but all interactions with a state or civil official are. and its not like it will be a daily occurrence. if it means scum are caught and money is saved, i'm all for it.

It's outside of the law, inconvenience and annoyance have nothing to do with it.

steddyeddy · 10-08-2013 2:07pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

inconvenient and annoying yes but all interactions with a state or civil official are. and its not like it will be a daily occurrence. if it means scum are caught and money is saved, i'm all for it.

I don't buy it in the slightest. Welfare fraud is the only thing tackled in this state again and again. What happened with the anglo tapes, haughey and a lot of the other sources of corruption in this country. Welfare fraudsters are small fry.

JRant · 10-08-2013 2:07pm

rolliepoley wrote: »

Also there is another thing this will only achieve of stoping is car pooling.

Not at all, your well within your rights to ask the Guard to not have a conversation infront of an unknown 3rd party. Especially when that 3rd party has no business listening in on a confidential conversation.

You are also well within your rights to tell the SW inspector to politely sod off and mind their own business.

Banjo String · 10-08-2013 2:15pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

inconvenient and annoying yes but all interactions with a state or civil official are. and its not like it will be a daily occurrence. if it means scum are caught and money is saved, i'm all for it.

Randomly send out speeding tickets to 200 motorists.

One or two might well have been speeding that day, minor inconvenience for the rest but sure tough shít Paddy.

These civil servants are acting outside their own remit.

End of story.

JRant · 10-08-2013 2:15pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't buy it in the slightest. Welfare fraud is the only thing tackled in this state again and again. What happened with the anglo tapes, haughey and a lot of the other sources of corruption in this country. Welfare fraudsters are small fry.

I remembered this article

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=18100

"Yet although the number of reviews increased by 65% the amount of corrections achieved was a miniscule 1.5% and what must be borne in mind here is that the overall budget rose from €18.3 billion (2008) to €20.6 billion (2010) so this suggests that “fraud and error” corrections had actually decreased as a percent of spend despite the massive increase in reviews. So much for any suggestion that “fraud” is a growing problem. On the contrary these figures would suggest that the Departments controls have become very effective."

KwackerJack · 10-08-2013 2:24pm

Its quiet simple really.....only Irish Citizens should get social welfare!

If your not a citizen you should work at least 3/5 years before being able to claim a cent and even the be limited to 6 months.

All this 'oh i cant work cause I've a disability due to a sore knee' i got 11 years ago!!!

They should find you work and if you refuse the 3rd offer well your cut and tough luck and they need social welfare doctors not the local doc that will give you a letter for anything because he's known your ma for 20 years!

As for being stopped I've nothing to hide so ask away!

steddyeddy · 10-08-2013 2:28pm

KwackerJack wrote: »

Its quiet simple really.....only Irish Citizens should get social welfare!

If your not a citizen you should work at least 3/5 years before being able to claim a cent and even the be limited to 6 months.

All this 'oh i cant work cause I've a disability due to a sore knee' i got 11 years ago!!!

They should find you work and if you refuse the 3rd offer well your cut and tough luck and they need social welfare doctors not the local doc that will give you a letter for anything because he's known your ma for 20 years!

As for being stopped I've nothing to hide so ask away!

I will so! I've as much right as a civil servant anyway

TireeTerror · 10-08-2013 2:31pm

I came across this video after watching that video where the Gardai smashed the motorists window because he refused to open it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58uSrA8CVJE

Its situations like that motorist and what happened to the two fellas in my video that really turn people against the Gardai. I just feel absolute fury when I hear stories like this.

Jester252 · 10-08-2013 2:39pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't buy it in the slightest. Welfare fraud is the only thing tackled in this state again and again. What happened with the anglo tapes, haughey and a lot of the other sources of corruption in this country. Welfare fraudsters are small fry.

Just because they're the tapes and other forms of corruption doesn't mean the SIU should not try and stop welfare fruad. If welfare fruad is the only thing tackled that just showes that the SIU are doing their jobs

steddyeddy · 10-08-2013 2:48pm

Jester252 wrote: »

Just because they're the tapes and other forms of corruption doesn't mean the SIU should not try and stop welfare fruad. If welfare fruad is the only thing tackled that just showes that the SIU are doing their jobs

Never said that it shouldn't be tackled. I'm saying it's the only thing tackled. If they are only tackling a sw fraud, a relatively small issue then they are not doing their jobs. As an citizen it is an insult that the public should be unlawfully stopped for this reason while corruption goes unpunished.

Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!

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