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Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!
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djflawless wrote: »But if they pull a young (under 25) male driver with a full licence and full windscreen, driving without fault, in something any bit sporty, they still interrogate them.
If theres justice in that surely theres justice in benefit fraudsters being stopped for the craic??
Interrogate? No questions other than name and address need to be answered.
Neither scenario has justice...they are fishing exercises.0 -
Funnily enough there is no law that requires you to answer questions other than name and address.
A simple "I don't wish to answer" and "am I being detained, guard, or am I free to go?"
and off you go.
Very legally suspect these roadblocks.
Section 109 Road Traffic Act. Stop and stay there until Garda is finished dealing with you.
Power for you to produce your licence and insurance there and then.TireeTerror wrote: »Is there no right to remain silent in Ireland? If a Garda asks you your name and address, what would happen if you simply replied "Have I committed an offence? Are you detaining me? I do not wish to provide any details unless I am suspected of having commited an offence. I wish to be on my way, may I leave now?"
Perhaps the driver legally has to provide name etc to prove he has a licence, but is it actually the law, or just something we all assume because it makes sense.
IS it true they are separating the driver from a passenger? Why would anyone even have to unlock the car doors? The driver could put the window down just a tiny bit to hear the Garda. I cant see why the passenger would even have to open their mouth at all, as if there was no offence being committed, surely they dont have to say a thing. Why would you potentially incriminate yourself by answering any questions.
I find these points of law so interesting, not because Im up to no good, but I just cannot stand the Government and the way everyone interferes with others lives.
See above.Hard working individuals were inconvenienced during the check points though.
like I say, why stop at welfare? Question drivers/passengers on anything that the garda fancies asking?
Is am individual legally obliged to divulge such info (pps number, if you work/employer details etc) to someone by the side of the road?
I doubt it. And the public should be made aware of it.
Checkpoints do cause inconvenience, it's unfortunate but when you think that people dodging road tax while you pay are having their cars taken then whats the problem? Uninsured driver hits your car you can bet you'll ask what are the Gardaí doing to catch them? Drink/Drug drivers? We catch them on checkpoints, even non MAT ones. (Driver actions approaching/at the checkpoint) If one of them hits you or pedestrian you'll probably ask where are the Gardaí to catch them?Unless told why your being stop you don't have to answer questions. I think the garda was wrong by giving her your licence without your permission. All you need to answer is your name and addresses. The rest is just fishing.Fred Swanson wrote: »This post has been deleted.
The link only mentions the powers of the Social Welfare inspectors, it doesn't mention what powers the Revenue Commissioners have which I suspect is what is being used at the checkpoints. Haven't been involved in one so can't say what power is being used by them to ask the questions.0 -
AndonHandon wrote: »It's that simple. But it isn't the social welfare rate; it's the allowances. Single, desperate mothers I'm looking at you. I pay a lot of taxes and don't get great healthcare while you guys get a house; **** that!
That's great, pick out just one section of social welfare claimaints.
Would you prefer all single mothers to be rounded up and put in one place to reduce the burden on your tax bill? Perhaps a modern version of the Magdalen Laundries where the mothers could be put to work for their keep? Perhaps their children could be taken from them and put on the block for adoption. Any money received for the children could be offset against the expense of maintaining the new institutions and those children who prove to be less commercially viable could be put to work as well.
I dislike the idea of these roadblocks. It's opening the gate to roadblocks on other pretexts that will seem to work in our favour but in reality curtail our freedom.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Section 109 Road Traffic Act. Stop and stay there until Garda is finished dealing with you.
Power for you to produce your licence and insurance there and then.
See above.
Checkpoints do cause inconvenience, it's unfortunate but when you think that people dodging road tax while you pay are having their cars taken then whats the problem? Uninsured driver hits your car you can bet you'll ask what are the Gardaí doing to catch them? Drink/Drug drivers? We catch them on checkpoints, even non MAT ones. (Driver actions approaching/at the checkpoint) If one of them hits you or pedestrian you'll probably ask where are the Gardaí to catch them?
The link only mentions the powers of the Social Welfare inspectors, it doesn't mention what powers the Revenue Commissioners have which I suspect is what is being used at the checkpoints. Haven't been involved in one so can't say what power is being used by them to ask the questions.
Couple of quick points.
1: When you've produced your license and given the garda your name/address you are well within your rights to ask to leave if everything is in order.
2: Nobody is saying Garda roadblocks are wrong. This nonsence of questioning people at the side of the road by SW inspectors is against their own rules and has no basis in law.
3: Revenue have nothing to do with this. They are a different kettle of fish altogether."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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Couple of quick points.
1: When you've produced your license and given the garda your name/address you are well within your rights to ask to leave if everything is in order.
2: Nobody is saying Garda roadblocks are wrong. This nonsence of questioning people at the side of the road by SW inspectors is against their own rules and has no basis in law.
3: Revenue have nothing to do with this. They are a different kettle of fish altogether.
Why are you saying that participation by SW personnel in Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints has no basis in law? Are you a legal professional? Back in 1999 the then Minister for SW said that their legal basis would be copperfastened into law. If they have been operating outside the law since then how are they getting away with it?
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1999/11/17/00033.asp
To copperfasten the legal basis of these operations provision was included in this year's Social Welfare Act to provide specific legal cover for officers of my Department participating in these checkpoints.
You may regard their existence as a nonsense but they have proved to be a sensible measure in detecting and deterring welfare fraud.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/Over-480-million-saved-through-review-of-750000-Social-Wel.aspx
Social Welfare Inspectors also undertook investigations as a result of Multi-Agency Vehicle Checkpoints, conducted with An Garda Siochana and the Revenue Customs. A total of 67 of these took place in the past year, with 31 concentrated in the border counties. 4,255, people were questioned on these checkpoints. This resulted in cessation/reduction in respect of 101 claimants with total savings amounting to €1,011,146, of which €545,600 were from the Border Regions.
A total of 67 such checkpoints (in 2009) would show how rare they are and I have certainly never seen one in operation. The original article in the OP concentrated far more on visits to places of employment and private homes in the pursuit of fraud rather than on the checkpoints.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html0 -
For all the amateur lawyers here this is some extra information from the 2009 link above.
Under existing provisions, a Social Welfare Inspector may, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána, in uniform, stop a vehicle and question anyone in the vehicle where the inspector reasonably suspects that it is being used for employment or self-employment.
The recently enacted Social Welfare & Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009 extends these provisions to provide for similar checkpoints operated by Social Welfare Inspectors and Customs Officers without the need for a Garda presence. It also provides that an Inspector may question any occupants for the purposes of the control of any social welfare payment.
I am not making any comment about the powers of Gardai or other personnel at vehicle checkpoints as I am not legally qualified. It may well be the case that all that is required is that a person roll down their car window half and inch to hand over their documents, ask the Garda etc to identify themselves in writing, and then say "May I be on my way".0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »Why are you saying that participation by SW personnel in Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints has no basis in law? Are you a legal professional? Back in 1999 the then Minister for SW said that their legal basis would be copperfastened into law. If they have been operating outside the law since then how are they getting away with it?
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1999/11/17/00033.asp
To copperfasten the legal basis of these operations provision was included in this year's Social Welfare Act to provide specific legal cover for officers of my Department participating in these checkpoints.
You may regard their existence as a nonsense but they have proved to be a sensible measure in detecting and deterring welfare fraud.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/Over-480-million-saved-through-review-of-750000-Social-Wel.aspx
Social Welfare Inspectors also undertook investigations as a result of Multi-Agency Vehicle Checkpoints, conducted with An Garda Siochana and the Revenue Customs. A total of 67 of these took place in the past year, with 31 concentrated in the border counties. 4,255, people were questioned on these checkpoints. This resulted in cessation/reduction in respect of 101 claimants with total savings amounting to €1,011,146, of which €545,600 were from the Border Regions.
A total of 67 such checkpoints (in 2009) would show how rare they are and I have certainly never seen one in operation. The original article in the OP concentrated far more on visits to places of employment and private homes in the pursuit of fraud rather than on the checkpoints.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html
As I've already posted
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx
This is what I'm basing my opinion on as it is more relevant and recent then the one provided by yourself. Those powers that 'were' to be copperfastened obviously haven't been. Nowhere in the above link does it say they have the legal basis to ask questions on the side of a road or indeed being able to stop vehicles without a garda presence.
Where did I say that their existence is a nonsense?
They are obviously doing a good job, considering the relatively low fraud rate. There's no need for them to be overstepping the mark though."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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As I've already posted
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx
This is what I'm basing my opinion on as it is more relevant and recent then the one provided by yourself. Those powers that 'were' to be copperfastened obviously haven't been. Nowhere in the above link does it say they have the legal basis to ask questions on the side of a road or indeed being able to stop vehicles without a garda presence.
Where did I say that their existence is a nonsense?
They are obviously doing a good job, considering the relatively low fraud rate. There's no need for them to be overstepping the mark though.
This is the extract from the relevant legislation from 2005 which is the legal basis to allow SW Inspectors to ask questions on the side of the road.
A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring
compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda
Sıochana in uniform—
(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used
in the course of employment or self-employment, and
(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment,
where so requested, question and make enquiries of any
person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the
social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her
employment or self-employment which the person has
possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.
That looks pretty copperfastened to me unless you can show that this legislation has since been repealed or amended to cease this power.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2005/en.act.2005.0026.pdf0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »This is the extract from the relevant legislation from 2005 which is the legal basis to allow SW Inspectors to ask questions on the side of the road.
A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring
compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda
Sıochana in uniform—
(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used
in the course of employment or self-employment, and
(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment,
where so requested, question and make enquiries of any
person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the
social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her
employment or self-employment which the person has
possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.
That looks pretty copperfastened to me unless you can show that this legislation has since been repealed or amended to cease this power.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2005/en.act.2005.0026.pdf
Where is the requirement to answer questions in this legislation? What records relating to employment do people usually carry with them? Liablity insurance perhaps?0 -
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And this is the section from the 2009 Act which specifies that the SW Inspector can be accompanied by a C&E officer or a Garda.
16.—Section 250 (as amended by sections 29 and 37 of the Social
Welfare Law Reform and Pensions Act 2006) of the Principal Act is
amended by substituting the following subsections for subsection
(16):
“(16) For the purpose of ensuring compliance with this Act,
a social welfare inspector may—
(a) if accompanied by—
(i) a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform, or
(ii) an officer of Customs and Excise in uniform,
and
(b) on production of his or her certificate of
appointment,
stop any vehicle and, for such purpose, may—
(i) question and make enquiries of any person in the
vehicle or in the vicinity of the vehicle, and
(ii) require such person, where the social welfare inspector
reasonably suspects that the vehicle is being used
in the course of employment or self-employment, to
give to the social welfare inspector any record relating
to the employment or self-employment of such
person which such person has possession of in the
vehicle.0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »And this is the section from the 2009 Act which specifies that the SW Inspector can be accompanied by a C&E officer or a Garda.
16.—Section 250 (as amended by sections 29 and 37 of the Social
Welfare Law Reform and Pensions Act 2006) of the Principal Act is
amended by substituting the following subsections for subsection
(16):
“(16) For the purpose of ensuring compliance with this Act,
a social welfare inspector may—
(a) if accompanied by—
(i) a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform, or
(ii) an officer of Customs and Excise in uniform,
and
(b) on production of his or her certificate of
appointment,
stop any vehicle and, for such purpose, may—
(i) question and make enquiries of any person in the
vehicle or in the vicinity of the vehicle, and
(ii) require such person, where the social welfare inspector
reasonably suspects that the vehicle is being used
in the course of employment or self-employment, to
give to the social welfare inspector any record relating
to the employment or self-employment of such
person which such person has possession of in the
vehicle.
Thanks for looking up the legislation.
Still no basis for the interrogation in terms of citizens rights.
No requirement under this law to answer questions.
No caution offered "Anything you say etc" and No legal advice available (you can hardly ask for your soliciltor to come to the roadside).
All seems a bit kangeroo to me.0 -
Where is the requirement to answer questions in this legislation? What records relating to employment do people usually carry with them? Liablity insurance perhaps?
If you read my earlier post you will see that I don't know the answer to these questions because I am not legally qualified. I had a quick look through the most recent iteration of the Garda Siochana Act but I could find no reference to Garda powers at checkpoints. If someone can show that there are specific questions that can be asked legally and that other questions are not legal then that would advance the argument.
Some people are saying that it is unlawful for a Garda to not allow a motorist to continue on their journey once they have given their name and address. But can anyone show the legislation where that is specified?0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »If you read my earlier post you will see that I don't know the answer to these questions because I am not legally qualified. I had a quick look through the most recent iteration of the Garda Siochana Act but I could find no reference to Garda powers at checkpoints. If someone can show that there are specific questions that can be asked legally and that other questions are not legal then that would advance the argument.
I think we are into the realms of the Legal Discussion forum.Some people are saying that it is unlawful for a Garda to not allow a motorist to continue on their journey once they have given their name and address. But can anyone show the legislation where that is specified?
No, people are saying that there is no right of detention beyond name, address and documents. What reasonable basis does a guard have to detain you further unless he suspect you have been drinking or are not the person you claim to be? It is not the function of the law to decribe when you are free to go, that is your protected right under the constitution, the function of the law is to describe the circumstances under which those rights are curtailed. Your freedom is assumed under the law.0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »If you read my earlier post you will see that I don't know the answer to these questions because I am not legally qualified. I had a quick look through the most recent iteration of the Garda Siochana Act but I could find no reference to Garda powers at checkpoints. If someone can show that there are specific questions that can be asked legally and that other questions are not legal then that would advance the argument.
A Garda can ask whatever they want anywhere they want. But unless there is legislation to compel you to provide the information then you are under no obligation to answer. The only times there is a legal requirement are when demanding name/address under different Acts. eg Public Order/Road Traffic Act.0 -
On the Navan - Slane road today (Eminem concert day) the first Garda Checkpoint also had officials from Revenue there. They were only pulling the mini buses and coaches over, but it was not a fuel dip, from what I saw it was the drivers paperwork being checked over by an Garda and Revenue.0
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Looking for unlicensed coach operators I'd say...
Fair play if you are transporting the public, deserve to be stopped and inspected.0
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