Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!

kneemos · 10-08-2013 03:25AM

I suspect a lot of people will have their guard down not expecting a welfare officer at a checkpoint and will just answer questions to be friendly and get on.As someone else said if they're fessing up to it it's an easy collar.All of these cases would probably have an appeals process I'd imagine.

It is a bit sneaky though in fairness.

B.A._Baracus · 10-08-2013 03:28AM

Is pretty bad that the Gardai are stopping people in order to try and catch people out. What about so called freedom? If I am walking down the road, or as in this case driving down the road, I nor anyone else should be randomly stopped :rolleyes:

Sure if the gardai are doing this then what's the job of social welfare investigators?

Jester252 · 10-08-2013 03:42AM

So they shouldn't have DUI checks or tax/insurance checks? The inspecter might have a list of suspected cars before going out.

kneemos · 10-08-2013 03:47AM

Jester252 wrote: »

So they shouldn't have DUI checks or tax/insurance checks? The inspecter might have a list of suspected cars before going out.

More likely checking names and addresses with the live register I'd say.

B.A._Baracus · 10-08-2013 03:47AM

Jester252 wrote: »

So they shouldn't have DUI checks or tax/insurance checks? The inspecter might have a list of suspected cars before going out.

Balance my good man.

Let's look at things from two 'extreme' sides of the coin. One on you have no gardai check points what so ever (Nothing. Not even drink driving checkpoints etc etc) But on the other hand you cant go 200 metres without passing checkpoints. Checkpoints for everthing. Tax, Insurance, destination, are you on the social welfare etc.

Don't you think that there is a line that should be set, but not crossed? A balance.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-08-2013 06:47AM

I'm sure we all know a few of these boyos in fairness, cash in hand merchants. I often have to laugh at some of these people, uber patriots when in the pub but yet they steal double from their beloved state in dole and unpaid taxes. It's the bigger guys fault isn't it?:rolleyes: They're worse.

stoneill · 10-08-2013 07:01AM

There is nothing illegal about Garda roadblocks, and they can ask all the questions they want.
So if you are stopped and you evade answers, that only makes you more suspicious, they will keep you there longer and will
check out the entire car until something is found.
Revenue, welfare and customs can piggyback onto garda checkpoints, nothing illegal about that either.

MadsL · 10-08-2013 07:56AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Are you some sort of legal professional?

Nope but I do believe investigations like this should be lawful.

What makes these checkpoints legally suspect and what is unconstitutional about the methods used as reported in the article?

Profiling people
Stopping people going about their business as is their right.

You have a right to move freely within the State. The Constitution does not specifically state a right to privacy but the courts recognise that the personal rights in the Constitution imply the right to privacy. Source

I didn't see any mention of people being pulled out of cars. If they are legally suspect and unconstitutional it's very surprising to me that our lawyer friends haven't been all over them. Especially when they have been in operation since 1999 if not before.

Many, many people do not know their rights.

I also fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on welfare fraud and I appreciate that these anti-fraud checkpoints have produced good results to that end.

I agree but don't you think that the State should behave constitionally and legally when it conducts such investigations?

stoneill wrote: »

There is nothing illegal about Garda roadblocks, and they can ask all the questions they want.

They can ask, but there is nothing in Irish law that says you must answer.

So if you are stopped and you evade answers, that only makes you more suspicious, they will keep you there longer and will
check out the entire car until something is found.

Evade..."I have nothing to say, may I go now?" is not evasion, it is a correct answer. A Guard has no legal right to interrogate anyone on the street.

Revenue, welfare and customs can piggyback onto garda checkpoints, nothing illegal about that either.

They can listen all they want, but a guard asking the questions for Revenue does not mean anyone has a greater imperative to answer.

I thought Ireland is a free society and not one where its police and Governament Department were above the law.

The rights of the citizen should be held more precious than the expedience of trying to trick people into incriminating themselves.

ebbsy · 10-08-2013 08:01AM

If the bizzies were out it :

1) must not have been raining

2) pool table must have been broken

Atomicjuicer · 10-08-2013 08:04AM

unkel wrote: »

Why wouldn't you answer the question if you did nothing wrong? People dodging these questions are likely to be very dodgy indeed. If you've done no wrong, you've nothing to fear.

One day a law will be brought in for people who would willingly damage the privacy rights of the public for their own safety and they'd be locked up.

You'd have nothing to fear then and be safe in your little cage.

Corkbah · 10-08-2013 08:12AM

TireeTerror wrote: »

Is there no right to remain silent in Ireland? If a Garda asks you your name and address, what would happen if you simply replied "Have I committed an offence? Are you detaining me? I do not wish to provide any details unless I am suspected of having commited an offence. I wish to be on my way, may I leave now?"

Perhaps the driver legally has to provide name etc to prove he has a licence, but is it actually the law, or just something we all assume because it makes sense.

IS it true they are separating the driver from a passenger? Why would anyone even have to unlock the car doors? The driver could put the window down just a tiny bit to hear the Garda. I cant see why the passenger would even have to open their mouth at all, as if there was no offence being committed, surely they dont have to say a thing. Why would you potentially incriminate yourself by answering any questions.

I find these points of law so interesting, not because Im up to no good, but I just cannot stand the Government and the way everyone interferes with others lives.

if there was a child abduction or serial abuser in the area would you prefer the gardai created similar roadblocks and asked questions or would you prefer if the gardai were not allowed to ask questions and seek answers in order to ensure the driver/passenger is not the perp (same thing different crime)

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:14AM

unkel wrote: »

Why wouldn't you answer the question if you did nothing wrong? People dodging these questions are likely to be very dodgy indeed. If you've done no wrong, you've nothing to fear.

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/the-data-trust-blog/2009/02/debunking-a-myth-if-you-have-n.html

Jester252 wrote: »

So they shouldn't have DUI checks or tax/insurance checks? The inspecter might have a list of suspected cars before going out.

How would you feel if you were interrogated as to your tax records
whilst you were getting breathalysed?

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:18AM

Corkbah wrote: »

if there was a child abduction or serial abuser in the area would you prefer the gardai created similar roadblocks and asked questions or would you prefer if the gardai were not allowed to ask questions and seek answers in order to ensure the driver/passenger is not the perp (same thing different crime)

What questions would you ask at a roadblock to determine if someone was a child abductor? Kidnap anyone lately?

Perp? Someone is watching too much TV.

Police probably would have a description of the person they were looking for and a vehicle type/colour. Thtat is usually how roadblocks are conducted.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 10-08-2013 08:18AM

koalabeard wrote: »

They know most of this stuff from 500 metres away. The New reg plate reading system will tell them who owns what car etc. The more probable reason for these searches is putting the fear of God into the average Joe.

Don't be bloody ridiculous, so they're not interested in catching welfare cheats on their way to work, they just want to scare people. Grow up!

Corkbah · 10-08-2013 08:21AM

MadsL wrote: »

Nope but I do believe investigations like this should be lawful.

Profiling people
Stopping people going about their business as is their right.

You have a right to move freely within the State. The Constitution does not specifically state a right to privacy but the courts recognise that the personal rights in the Constitution imply the right to privacy. Source

Many, many people do not know their rights.

I agree but don't you think that the State should behave constitionally and legally when it conducts such investigations?

They can ask, but there is nothing in Irish law that says you must answer.

Evade..."I have nothing to say, may I go now?" is not evasion, it is a correct answer. A Guard has no legal right to interrogate anyone on the street.

They can listen all they want, but a guard asking the questions for Revenue does not mean anyone has a greater imperative to answer.

I thought Ireland is a free society and not one where its police and Governament Department were above the law.

The rights of the citizen should be held more precious than the expedience of trying to trick people into incriminating themselves.

all of your reasons are why its so difficult to get a criminal convicted in this country .... because the Gardai must follow procedure to the letter of the law ...yet, if they did this there would be uproar, traffic cops would have fines for everyone in a bus lane, breaking an amber/red light, illegal parking (even if its only 5 mins)

We do not have the resources to enforce all the laws and "tactics"/"methods" are used to intimidate and get results - it wont catch everyone but I'd much rather if we had proper judges and proper sentencing for those that are caught.

point to note - in this country its rare for someone to actually plead guilty to a crime, because there is a chance that the prosecution made an error or someone made an error which can ruin the case (ie. Judge Curtain in Kerry, or the other child porn accused guy a few weeks ago - central bank official - who also had the incorrect date on the warrant :eek: so all evidence gathered is inadmissible), people do not plead guilty to murder in this country - because its automatic "life" and by having a trial there's a chance you can get off.

legal system has ruined the country and so have the "bleeding hearts" brigade who fight for the rights of the little person - and in many cases only see what they want to see (example pamela isevbekhai....years were spent on her legal battle to stay in the country - only to discover she was lying ...and we picked up the tab)

Even at the moment there is a case pending - long story short the guy is accused of hit and run - killing a child, after he did this (and the evidence supports that he did this) he went on a crime spree for several months - he has been convicted of the crime spree so when its conviction time for the hit and run - killing a child, his sentence will be concurrent to his jail sentence for the robberies ...he will serve no extra time in jail - he is using and abusing the system ...but on the face of it, he was just a criminal committing crimes - he was not charged with the hit'n'run prior to committing his robberies so as far as the legal system is concerned its completely unrelated and the sentencing will be concurrent - absolute joke in my opinion.

fundamentally I agree with you - the Gardai/government in this country cant really be trusted, but what choice do we have .... no matter who we vote for the politicians will get in !! .... every system in the country needs an overhaul, too much nepotism and jobs for the boys .... not enough qualified people in positions capable of making change) .... it works on both sides ... there are hundreds/thousands of people abusing the systems available and there are hundreds/thousands of incompetents working in the system not capable of/able to stop them.

for Social Welfare - why give out money - give out vouchers for food, this will help stop people abusing the monies received.

ash23 · 10-08-2013 08:23AM

AndonHandon wrote: »

It's that simple. But it isn't the social welfare rate; it's the allowances. Single, desperate mothers I'm looking at you. I pay a lot of taxes and don't get great healthcare while you guys get a house; **** that!

Eh excuse me? Please inform yourself! Over 50% of single parents do NOT claim benefits. Of the 50% that do, over half also work part time (as they are eligible to do).

I'm a single mother, I'm not "desperate" whatever that means. I work full time and nobody gave me a house.

So quit your mindless generalisations. So sick of this crap. Working my ass off to provide for a child the same as everyone else only to be looked down on and generalised about by people who haven't the faintest idea of what they are talking about. :rolleyes:

Cee-Jay-Cee · 10-08-2013 08:24AM

koalabeard wrote: »

People won't tell the gards they're off to commit a crime. (Welfare fraud) Story doesn't add up.

If they stop a van with three lads inside it all in work clothes and the van full of tools, it's sort of hard for them to claim they weren't at/ on theyr way to work. The SW person then cross refs their details against their database to see if any if them are in receipt of welfare. They're not expecting people to tell them they're working and claiming dole. You need to think outside the box every now and then.

Corkbah · 10-08-2013 08:31AM

CJC999 wrote: »

If they stop a van with three lads inside it all in work clothes and the van full of tools, it's sort of hard for them to claim they weren't at/ on theyr way to work. The SW person then cross refs their details against their database to see if any if them are in receipt of welfare. They're not expecting people to tell them they're working and claiming dole. You need to think outside the box every now and then.

so its ok for office workers to abuse the system ...just not construction workers or hands on labour ?

dress in a nice suit or jeans/shirt and everything will be ok - anyone can change clothes when they get to work.

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:31AM

Corkbah wrote: »

all of your reasons are why its so difficult to get a criminal convicted in this country .... because the Gardai must follow procedure to the letter of the law ...yet, if they did this there would be uproar, traffic cops would have fines for everyone in a bus lane, breaking an amber/red light, illegal parking (even if its only 5 mins)

Gardai must follow procedure to the letter of the law to protect the innocent.

We do not have the resources to enforce all the laws and "tactics"/"methods" are used to intimidate and get results - it wont catch everyone but I'd much rather if we had proper judges and proper sentencing for those that are caught

.

West Midlands police had a similar "tactics"/"methods" to catch IRA bombers.

They caught 6 if you remember.

point to note - in this country its rare for someone to actually plead guilty to a crime, because there is a chance that the prosecution made an error or someone made an error which can ruin the case (ie. Judge Curtain in Kerry, or the other child porn accused guy a few weeks ago - central bank official - who also had the incorrect date on the warrant :eek: so all evidence gathered is inadmissible), people do not plead guilty to murder in this country - because its automatic "life" and by having a trial there's a chance you can get off.

The right to a trial is pretty fundamental I would have thought?

legal system has ruined the country and so have the "bleeding hearts" brigade who fight for the rights of the little person - and in many cases only see what they want to see (example pamela isevbekhai....years were spent on her legal battle to stay in the country - only to discover she was lying ...and we picked up the tab)

Abolish the legal system? Mob rule?

fundamentally I agree with you - the Gardai/government in this country cant really be trusted, but what choice do we have .... no matter who we vote for the politicians will get in !! .... every system in the country needs an overhaul, too much nepotism and jobs for the boys .... not enough qualified people in positions capable of making change)

Errr...OK.

Grand Moff Tarkin · 10-08-2013 08:39AM

Only people with something to hide need fear this.

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:42AM

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Only people with something to hide need fear this.

People who say this often find that eventually there is something to fear.

oldyouth · 10-08-2013 08:42AM

Very pro-active in my opinion. We need more of these physical detection schemes, rather than people sitting in social welfare offices trawling through files trying to catch cheats.

Next should be on the road officers checking the VAT clearance certs for certain 'traders' in our society. If you trade, produce the cert. If you can't prove that you trade, then where did you get your money from?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 10-08-2013 08:43AM

Corkbah wrote: »

so its ok for office workers to abuse the system ...just not construction workers or hands on labour ?

dress in a nice suit or jeans/shirt and everything will be ok - anyone can change clothes when they get to work.

FFS still stuck in your little box. I gave one example to demonstrate how enclosed your mind was and that there are situations where SW can catch people working and claiming dole, I never suggested that that was all they are looking for. I'm sure they've got other methods too but there'd be no point in explaining them to you in your little black/white world.

Grand Moff Tarkin · 10-08-2013 08:45AM

MadsL wrote: »

People who say this often find that eventually there is something to fear.

I do not break the law in such a way so I have nothing to fear and if this new system helps to catch a few cheats all the better as far as I am concerned.

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:46AM

oldyouth wrote: »

Next should be on the road officers checking the VAT TAX clearance certs for certain 'traders' politicians in our society.

FYP

Corkbah · 10-08-2013 08:47AM

MadsL wrote: »

Gardai must follow procedure to the letter of the law to protect the innocent.

....so you would prefer a zero tolerance policy ??? people parked in loading bays for 30+seconds, people sitting in traffic in a bus lane ? people running a red light ? people driving 31km/hr in a 30km/hr zone .... people intoxicated to the point they are a danger to themselves or others (how many hundreds/thousands would you have the gardai arrest on a Fri/Sat night) ... people parked on double yellows ?

people out of tax by 1 day, or just purchased a car - waiting on tax/insurance discs ? cyclists on the luas tracks, breaking red lights, on one way streets - the wrong way, cycling on footpaths ..... its impossible to list ALL of the offences which the gardai would have to enforce with a zero tolerance policy ...impossible to follow procedure to the letter of the law to protect the innocent

MadsL wrote: »

West Midlands police had a similar "tactics"/"methods" to catch IRA bombers. They caught 6 if you remember.

different times/methods .... that was during a period of conflict between the IRA - where police were afraid of bombings and countless lives were lost in the name of "attacking the monarchy" ..... how many innocents did either side take - plenty.

in todays modern world its rare that the gardai would collude in such a way ....I don't trust them 100% but what choice do we have, slowly adjust Garda mentality and public opinion by clamping down on those sectors of society that are draining resources.

MadsL wrote: »

The right to a trial is pretty fundamental I would have thought?

the right to a fair trial ... but who determines if its fair ??? me , you, the judiciary, the gardai, the DPP, the public .... right to a trial is fine, but if/when faced with overwhelming evidence or if you know you did it ...why plead not guilty and waste public money on a trial ... because there are no repercussions - criminals should be made pay financially for their crimes - cut off welfare or maybe stop giving them welfare payments while they serve time in prison !!

MadsL wrote: »

Abolish the legal system? Mob rule?

adjust the legal system.... :rolleyes: ...to one with proper sentencing and create prisons that are not seen as a holiday camp - by criminals..... there are generations of families that have gone through the system and continue to go through it..... the system has not failed them, it afforded them every opportunity to reform, yet they turn into career criminals ... almost every day we see some family saying its because there were no services available in the area that the kid turned to drink/drugs .... bull !! ... services are now more than ever in disadvantaged areas, yet crime rates continue to soar.

MadsL wrote: »

Errr...OK.

MadsL · 10-08-2013 08:48AM

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

I do not break the law in such a way so I have nothing to fear and if this new system helps to catch a few cheats all the better as far as I am concerned.

As well you weren't Irish in Birmingham in the 70s so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

You don't need to break the law to say the wrong thing and end up prosecuted.

Richard Hillman · 10-08-2013 08:49AM

My god, people are actually complaining about catching dole cheats.

Corkbah · 10-08-2013 08:52AM

MadsL wrote: »

As well you weren't Irish in Birmingham in the 70s so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

You don't need to break the law to say the wrong thing and end up prosecuted.

1970's .... c'mon .... at least use some case which happened in THIS country ... like the McBrearty family in Donegal or Frank Shortt also in Donegal ...they are a little more contemporary ..... 1970's England is NOT Ireland.

your example is no better than saying well in 1940's germany the jews were innocent ...its completely irrelevant to THIS country....and given that its the same example you've used twice now I'm guessing you'll be googling the two names I gave to try find more information to support your argument.

oldyouth · 10-08-2013 08:53AM

MadsL wrote: »

FYP

No, you made an arse of it

Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!

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