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Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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Comments

  • #812
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    cdebru wrote: »
    you are using, 2011 figures and are just making **** up, drivers basic salary is 33 shift allowances bring it to around 38.5.

    thats the facts
    I've given my source, the latest published accounts. If you have newer, link them.
    Where do you think shift allowance is reported in the accounts if not under payroll?
    And the split between drivers and non drivers is 66:33 as per your post - I'm trusting you.

    Everything else is pure excel

    Rather than getting upset, why not present the correct figures.


  • #813
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    2nd best paid bus drivers in europe according to the front page of the daily fail today.
    i would take what the daily fail says with a pinch of salt

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #814
    Almaviva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    cdebru wrote: »
    No they don't AIW is 43k DB driver is 38.5

    33k according to the CSO (average wage). So 30k for a bus driver still sounds about right to me.


  • #815
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    cdebru wrote: »
    No they don't AIW is 43k

    Technically, yes. But only 19% of workforce is employed in Industry, and Bus Drivers are not part of that 19%.

    Average annual earnings in Ireland in 2012 was €36,079.
    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts2012.pdf


  • #816
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    cdebru wrote: »
    AIW can still be calculated from the CSO figures
    True, but its the third highest paid sector of the economy; and not representative of the work most people do, so why use it as a benchmark? Oh, I'm being naive, BECAUSE it is so high.

    See, this is actually a classic example of unrealistic expectations. You union is telling you that the average is 43k, when really its 36k. You feel annoyed you are earning so far below the avg, when in fact you are being paid above avg. Its all in the presentation and manipulation marketing of figures


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  • #817
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    I've given my source, the latest published accounts. If you have newer, link them.
    Where do you think shift allowance is reported in the accounts if not under payroll?
    And the split between drivers and non drivers is 66:33 as per your post - I'm trusting you.

    Everything else is pure excel

    Rather than getting upset, why not present the correct figures.

    No you haven't 2012 is the latest published accounts and google is your friend.

    38.5k is a drivers basic salary including shift allowance. Do you understand that bit ? If a driver earns more than that it is because he does overtime. Is it sinking in now ?

    Dividing annual wage costs by the number of employees can not give you a drivers salary. Do you understand that ?


  • #818
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    True, but its the third highest paid sector of the economy; and not representative of the work most people do, so why use it as a benchmark? Oh, I'm being naive, BECAUSE it is so high.

    See, this is actually a classic example of unrealistic expectations. You union is telling you that the average is 43k, when really its 36k. You feel annoyed you are earning so far below the avg, when in fact you are being paid above avg. Its all in the presentation and manipulation marketing of figures


    Because it is the traditional benchmark figure that everyone recognises.

    And odd you shoud accuse anyone of manipulating figures given your attempt to pass off average wage cost across the whole company as drivers salary.


  • #819
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    cdebru wrote: »
    Because it is the traditional benchmark figure that everyone recognises.

    In your union...
    And odd you shoud accuse anyone of manipulating figures given your attempt to pass off average wage cost across the whole company as drivers salary.

    I've asked a dozen questions to try figure out drivers pay and you dodge them.

    When you said average earnings were 38.5K and drivers only make up 66% of employees I threw that into excel and posted in this thread.
    You then claim that I'm making **** up, when these are figures YOU provided! :eek:


  • #820
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,263 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    So what's the latest with the strike. The talks going well?


  • #821
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    cdebru wrote: »
    No you haven't 2012 is the latest published accounts and google is your friend.

    38.5k is a drivers basic salary including shift allowance. Do you understand that bit ? If a driver earns more than that it is because he does overtime. Is it sinking in now ?

    Dividing annual wage costs by the number of employees can not give you a drivers salary. Do you understand that ?
    Tell you what, why dont you provide us with the correct figures.

    Get the 2012 accounts and take the wages and salaries figures.
    Then break it out by number of employees who are bus drivers, admin, management etc.
    Put in the avg salary by category, and the number of workers by category and tot the whole thing up.

    Assuming 90% of DB employees are bus drivers, its about 46k.
    Assuming only 66% are drivers, and the 1,000+ non-drivers earn a wopping 61K avg salary, then bus drivers earn about the Irish average annual earnings.

    Its easy to throw mud from the side lines, you clearly should have better working knowledge of DB, educate us!


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  • #822
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Listen, I dont want to take away from it. It is a skill I currently do not have.
    ...

    The average income in this country at present is about 36k.
    For a driver to deserve a wage above that imo they must have a skill that a huge percentage of the population could not do i.e. be massively skilled.

    I'll keep an open mind. To convince me,tell me about caliber of the trainee, the training they undergo and pass rates on these tests



    I notice that the opportunity to explain why bus driving is "massively skilled" was quietly passed over


  • #823
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    So what's the latest with the strike. The talks going well?

    same sh*it will happen. proposals will be rejected and then as usual instead of cutting the costs, they will just increase prices.


  • #824
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    cdebru wrote: »
    There it is again, what did you fail the aptitude test, is that where all this bitterness is coming from ?

    My mother been driving db's nearly 30 years ,
    I know what it entails probably more than most

    Can any Dublin bus employee explain the quote regually thrown around this week ,

    " management keep dipping into driver's pockets and we've had enough "

    But yet still on Celtic tiger wages and rates and no cuts in the last 5 years ,

    So what's behind the management dipping into pockets
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #825
    Almaviva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    I notice that the opportunity to explain why bus driving is "massively skilled" was quietly passed over

    On that particular point, the silence was that of that of a white flag waving.


  • #826
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    In your union...



    I've asked a dozen questions to try figure out drivers pay and you dodge them.

    When you said average earnings were 38.5K and drivers only make up 66% of employees I threw that into excel and posted in this thread.
    You then claim that I'm making **** up, when these are figures YOU provided! :eek:


    Where did I say average driver earnings were 38.5k ?

    I said basic salary including shift allowances is 38.5k that is what drivers are paid now you don't have to work it out. Some drivers work overtime most don't of those that do they are limited to 48 hours maximum per week so roughly 10 hours per week, so maximum 480 a year. But in order for the average to be what you claimed a lot of drivers would have to be earning over 50 +k to bring the average up for those that do no overtime. And that is not possible because of the 48 hour maximum working week, and there just isn't that much overtime. And there are restrictions on rest periods etc so even when there is overtime a lot of drivers can't do it even if they wanted to.


    Bottom line

    1 on 190k
    9 on over 100k
    7 depots with at least 4 or 5 managers per depot about 70- 90k
    20 odd chief inspectors on about 80k
    150 odd inspectors on about 60k
    Other head office staff
    Supervisors
    Clerical execs
    Lead hands etc etc etc all on basic salaries higher than a drivers basic wage.

    So


  • #827
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    cdebru wrote: »
    15 minutes travelling time when you start and finish your days work in a different location is perhaps a little on the low side really depends on how far apart the starting and finishing locations are.

    Many, many people start and end their shift at different points (I expect the majority of those who drive for a living), why should Dublin Bus drivers get an allowance for travel when it's archaic and well outside what the rest of the economy gets (similar to the time off public sector were getting to cash cheques)?
    cdebru wrote: »
    Which is how many days out of the year ? and it is as rare as hens teeth, ask DB how many hours they paid at that rate in the last year.

    Not unreasonable though given the unsocial aspect of working bank holidays.

    Personally I think they should pay what they want and make it completely voluntary as to who wants to work bank holidays.

    If it happens so rarely why were you bloody striking, hurting the economy and more so the weakest in society, about it's reduction from 3 times to 2.25??? It's pathetic!!


  • #828
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Gatling wrote: »
    My mother been driving db's nearly 30 years ,
    I know what it entails probably more than most

    Can any Dublin bus employee explain the quote regually thrown around this week ,

    " management keep dipping into driver's pockets and we've had enough "

    But yet still on Celtic tiger wages and rates and no cuts in the last 5 years ,

    So what's behind the management dipping into pockets

    Drivers pay has been cut already as well as the introduction of the 48 hour week this is the second bite at the cherry.


  • #829
    michellie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭michellie


    Every single time I see this thread name I automatically read " do you support the Dublin bus ****"


  • #830
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Many, many people start and end their shift at different points (I expect the majority of those who drive for a living), why should Dublin Bus drivers get an allowance for travel when it's archaic and well outside what the rest of the economy gets (similar to the time off public sector were getting to cash cheques)?



    If it happens so rarely why were you bloody striking, hurting the economy and more so the weakest in society, about it's reduction from 3 times to 2.25??? It's pathetic!!


    Who says many people do ? and who says they don't get traveling time ?

    First you think the strike is about one thing ?

    Second the question was in relation to overtime which is rare on bank holidays

    The issue of bank holiday pay outside of overtime is separate, and it is not a reduction from 3 to 2.25 it is from 2 to 1.25 as the statutory entitlement is paid to everyone on a bank holiday whether you work or not.


  • #831
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,695 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    cdebru wrote: »
    Drivers pay has been cut already as well as the introduction of the 48 hour week this is the second bite at the cherry.

    Only a trade unionist would see a safety measure, limiting the working week to 48 hrs, as a cut to pay.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • #832
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    I notice that the opportunity to explain why bus driving is "massively skilled" was quietly passed over

    Read the thread it has been asked and answered before.


  • #833
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    JRant wrote: »
    Only a trade unionist would see a safety measure, limiting the working week to 48 hrs, as a cut to pay.

    Earnings have been cut by it, that is a fact like it or not it remains the same.


  • #834
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Gatling wrote: »
    My mother been driving db's nearly 30 years ,
    I know what it entails probably more than most

    Because your mammy does it ?

    Yeah my mother was a dentist, so I can fix your teeth if you want, I obviously would know more than most.

    Don't worry I am sure she did love you, it explains the bitterness though.


  • #835
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdebru wrote: »
    Earnings have been cut by it, that is a fact like it or not it remains the same.

    Indeed it does, but I'd have thought safety was more important than money at the end of the day. The fact that some people think it would be better to not have a sensible regulation to ensure that tired drivers are not on the road so they could earn a few quid says all you need to know.

    Also overtime is not a right, it should be viewed as a bonus and something nice to have, but it is not in a contract of employment that you should get a set amount of overtime each day/week/month.


  • #836
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,695 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    cdebru wrote: »
    Earnings have been cut by it, that is a fact like it or not it remains the same.

    No, safety has been increased by it. There's no way a professional driver should be working more than those hours. It's been well established that driving while tired is akin to being over the limit.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #837
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Tell you what, why dont you provide us with the correct figures.

    Get the 2012 accounts and take the wages and salaries figures.
    Then break it out by number of employees who are bus drivers, admin, management etc.
    Put in the avg salary by category, and the number of workers by category and tot the whole thing up.

    Assuming 90% of DB employees are bus drivers, its about 46k.
    Assuming only 66% are drivers, and the 1,000+ non-drivers earn a wopping 61K avg salary, then bus drivers earn about the Irish average annual earnings.

    Its easy to throw mud from the side lines, you clearly should have better working knowledge of DB, educate us!


    No you get them I will tell you what they are though 149million , 3236 employees.


    But seriously you believe 90% of DB employees are drivers lol

    So that leaves 324, staff for managers, head office, inspectors, maintenance, clerical night cleaners, engineering, between 7 depots and head office.

    Stop will you, jeez you guys have no clue what you are talking about common sense has completely deserted you.


  • #838
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    devnull wrote: »
    Indeed it does, but I'd have thought safety was more important than money at the end of the day. The fact that some people think it would be better to not have a sensible regulation to ensure that tired drivers are not on the road so they could earn a few quid says all you need to know.


    Did I say it was a bad idea ?

    Traditionally drivers could work long hours and some did now they can't the reasoning behind it is sound, but that doesn't pay your bills.


  • #839
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    cdebru wrote: »
    Earnings have been cut by it, that is a fact like it or not it remains the same.

    Unless it is paid at normal hourly rates regular overtime is a waste of money.
    They should just employ the right number of drivers.


  • #840
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    cdebru wrote: »
    Who says many people do ? and who says they don't get traveling time ?

    Give me one example of a non government subsidised company that pays daily travel time.
    First you think the strike is about one thing ?

    I'm saying pick and choose your battles and you might actually get some public support.
    Second the question was in relation to overtime which is rare on bank holidays

    The issue of bank holiday pay outside of overtime is separate, and it is not a reduction from 3 to 2.25 it is from 2 to 1.25 as the statutory entitlement is paid to everyone on a bank holiday whether you work or not.

    So at no time do Dublin Bus drivers get 3 times rate of pay? Should tell the NBRU as they didn't contradict it when it was put to them and stated that they were against a cut to it. Again fighting a reduction from 3 times to 2.25 is pathetic, pick your battles and stop acting like children who throw a tantrum when one sweet is taken away from them when they have a bowl of them in front of them.


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  • #841
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    JRant wrote: »
    No, safety has been increased by it. There's no way a professional driver should be working more than those hours. It's been well established that driving while tired is akin to being over the limit.

    I agree, but that does not mean it has not had any affect on earnings, if they decided that drivers should only work 25 hours a week for safety reasons and paid drivers just for the 25 hours it would obviously affect your earnings even if it improved safety.


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